change jobs mid dungeon/raid/etc

sometimes when i doing a dungeon/primal/alex/midas a tank/healer/dps leaves. we should be able to switch jobs while in a dungeon etc

Agreed, it's in a few other games and those games didn't break from it.

The problem is if you were playing as the healer or tank and switch to a DPS, the party now has to wait for them.
Plus, there would be people who would abuse this like queuing as a Tank for the insta-queue, then switch to DPS.
If you wanted to play as a certain job, you should have queued as it. :B

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

The problem is if you were playing as the healer or tank and switch to a DPS, the party now has to wait for them.
Plus, there would be people who would abuse this like queuing as a Tank for the insta-queue, then switch to DPS.
If you wanted to play as a certain job, you should have queued as it. :B

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Maybe cant switch until there is an opening.

So long as there's a rule that you can only switch to a different role if the party is currently missing that role, I don't think it would be too open to abuse.

3rd post said all that needs to be said /thread

Switching jobs with the same role I could get on board with. But it won't happen.

Yus, then I could just be a SMN in expert roulette like I already pretend to be.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Yus, then I could just be a SMN in expert roulette like I already pretend to be.

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Is your Garuda-Egi as confused as mine? She heals people for some reason. I think she's broken. :c

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Is your Garuda-Egi as confused as mine? She heals people for some reason. I think she's broken. :c

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hahaha, I am assuming you are just adding your joke to my own :P Obviously, without Fairy there would need to be some heals. I wouldn't be surprised if the tank could survive on self heals long enough with having 3 DPS burning stuff down so fast though.

I wish we could have this by now. A easy way to implement is that when a class is missing or want to scramble, you have to revote and then you choose your role. I doubt it can be that hard either.

PS: yes it can be abused. Just like everything else in this game: it's up to them to make it abuse-proof, not to us.

It is easy to stop it from being abused. Make it so you can only switch to a different role while waiting for the slot to refill. Much like the question that pops about "Refill position?" or whatever, make it ask if someone is willing to change roles. If yes 1 person may switch to the needed role (such as DPS to heal/Tank), after that it is locked until the position is filled. However yes if your talking allow it at anytime it is just asking for trouble to go into a dungeon to have "those" people try to force the DPS to change classes "You have a level 60 blackmage, go on that instead of your MCH"

While it may sound easy to do, chances are it would mess with the DF algorithm to replace the missing members. Only way I can see it really working without putting a fork in the algorithm is to only allow job changes if the party is not "looking for members". Essentially, when someone leaves, a prompt pops up for the PT leader asking if they want to replace those roles. I think this would be the only safe place you could actively switch to a missing role without it messing with the matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

The problem is if you were playing as the healer or tank and switch to a DPS, the party now has to wait for them.
Plus, there would be people who would abuse this like queuing as a Tank for the insta-queue, then switch to DPS.
If you wanted to play as a certain job, you should have queued as it. :B

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That would only hurt the group, because now you need a new tank. A new tank join, and have the same mindset as you. He don't want to tank, so he goes dps as well, then you're back to square one lol...

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

On the nose!

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If anyone remembers 1.18 and the introduction of apt of the systems we have in place for 2.0 and beyond (combo system, diminishing returns, etc.) they allowed job switching at any time. Abuse of this systems was more along the times of job quality and quantity which doesn't work with 2.0 and beyond with lockouts. Though with the inclusion of crafted gear once again being viable and penta-melds pushing the boundaries this could make things work again. That being said in 1.18 you were required to have a particular set of jobs leveled with corresponding high-end gear if you wanted to clear speed runs for the bonus chest. People without both were ostracized and made to weep in the corner...tough times for people who were previous raiders in others games but couldn't keep up with the curve.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

That would only hurt the group, because now you need a new tank. A new tank join, and have the same mindset as you. He don't want to tank, so he goes dps as well, then you're back to square one lol...

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Are you saying people wouldn't hurt the group to benefit themselves? >w>

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Originally Posted by KoroushSensei

sometimes when i doing a dungeon/primal/alex/midas a tank/healer/dps leaves. we should be able to switch jobs while in a dungeon etc

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If you mean removing the cooldown for switching,.... Hell, I'd like this at ANY time. "Boy, I'd sure love to save you from dying Mr. Sprout Guy, but alas I have to wait until I come off cooldown, so I guess I'll just have to stand here and watch you die, then just res you unnecessarily *sigh* " I get why they do it, but still,....

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Are you saying people wouldn't hurt the group to benefit themselves? >w>

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No, they would! But......nevermind!

It would be abused and Duty finder would be terrible. I dont think how it cant be abused. DCUO is a perfect example of how it can be abused.

Just look at Diadem....
The only time à got there, i had half my party switching to DOL and the other half got screwed because we could not farm without tank/healer.
Plus, i remember so many abuses in RIFT....people would tag as tank, then switch to DPS so we could not go...

Only allow job switches on preformed parties. Wow that was hard.

RIFT was awesome due to the fact I could get high end DPS gear and be a fully specced tank, or get high end defense gear and be a full specced dps and sort-of-tank. =3

Such a great game concept, to bad the armor, graphics and models and ... pay to win didn't cut it that well. Housing in that game was amazing though.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only allow job switches on preformed parties. Wow that was hard.

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Then it would be kinda pointless if your go into a dungeon and tank bails cus "I don't want this dungeon". This would allow the healer or dps to become the tank, much easier to refill a DPS slot than a tank most times. Dunno about you but I rarely run a preformed 4man and have anyone bail

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

chances are it would mess with the DF algorithm to replace the missing members.

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It would just reset that algorithm. E.g. if the tank leaves and the party leader sets DF to search for a new tank, but then their healer decides to switch to tank instead, that would end the search for a new tank and begin another search, this time for a new healer.

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Originally Posted by Derio

It would be abused and Duty finder would be terrible. I dont think how it cant be abused.

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What's there to abuse? If your party is missing role X, then switching to role X just changes which role is missing. You're missing one or the other in either case, the only differences are how hard that role is to refill, or how hard it is to do without if you go shorthanded.

Well, I guess there might also have to also be some rules regarding whether you can roll Need on loot drops. I'd guess that it's the job you played during a fight that determines whether you can Need on loot from that fight. So no waiting until you see what's in the chest, then switch to the job that can Need on it (like from one DPS job to another while running shorthanded with an empty DPS slot). But so long as that rule is in place, I don't see anything abusable from a system that lets you (while out-of-combat) switch to a job whose role is currently missing from your party.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It would just reset that algorithm. E.g. if the tank leaves and the party leader sets DF to search for a new tank, but then their healer decides to switch to tank instead, that would end the search for a new tank and begin another search, this time for a new healer..

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Exactly, that resetting the algorithm is messing with it. In essence, it would probably pull you out of the queue if someone changes and then place you back at the end of the queue when trying to find a new role replacement. Give some latency delays between someone changing roles and it selecting a member (i.e. it found a member essentially at the same time someone changed roles) and you start having issues popping up like 2 tanks, 1 dps, 1 healer (one dps changed to tank at the same time a new tank joins). As I stated in a previous post, the only clean way I can see to facilitate changing roles during a duty would be under the following guidelines:

1. Can only change roles to one of the missing roles (even then, 2 players changing at the same time could happen)
2. Can only change roles if the party is not currently "looking for members"

Those 2 guidelines would make it so that you won't have a new player joining the instance during a role transition. The only issue that remains is stated in guideline 1, where you have 2 players in the current party attempting to change to the missing role at the same moment.

Well, if DF was searching for a replacement member and found one, the ability to switch to that role would have to be blocked immediately, including during those few seconds when the prospective new member gets the queue pop-up and needs to select "Accept". To the people in the dungeon, it wouldn't look as though the missing spot had been filled yet (and indeed it might not be if the new person doesn't accept). So there might be times when a spot appears available and someone in the dungeon party thinks they could change jobs, but would get an error when trying to do so.

So long as the error message that comes up in that case is clear as to why the attempt to change jobs failed, it doesn't seem like that would be a deal-breaker.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

where you have 2 players in the current party attempting to change to the missing role at the same moment.

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There's really no such thing as "at the same moment". Two people might both go into their character window to select another job, but eventually those requests are both going to hit the server. The one the server processes first happens, the one it gets second fails. So only the one player actually changes jobs. The other would get the same error as any other case where you're trying to switch to a job whose role is already filled.

What about DPS switching to DPS..?

I really don't think this is needed. It's not that much of a common issue that someone is kicked or leaves, and when it does, you can leave free of penalty or replace them. Implementing this would take more time than its worth, especially when they would have to make it abuse proof.

Simply add an option "return to the content you just exit legally". Then you go out and swtich job and come back. done. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Simply add an option "return to the content you just exit legally". Then you go out and swtich job and come back. done. ^^;

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So basically, vote abandon or just leave the instance when someone else quits.

I like it, but the system can be easily abused. Here is two examples that I have witnessed in another mmorpg.

1. Three players from the same guild join a dungeon as 1 healer and 2 dps, the tank is a random player. They reach the final boss and just before they engage the final boss, the tank got kicked. Why did the tank get kicked? The tank got kicked, because one of the dps player wanted to make 100% sure that he would get the tank weapon/armour if it were to drop. So the dps player changes into a tank, they get another random dps, they kill the boss and a tank item drops. You are probably asking yourself: "Why didnt the dps tank from the start?" Because like alot of players in this game, they have tank alts, but they do not want to tank to earn the gear.

2. Instant queue, every dps or healer would queue as tank, join the dungeon and change their class into a dps or healer.

I think the only way this would work is, if players join the DF as a full group (like via a Party Finder), otherwise this feature will be abused and the forums will be filled with QQ of players complaining about how someone kicked them get (insert item) or made them wait, because they queued as tank and played as another role.

This does not mean, I dislike this suggestion, I like it. But the ways players can abuse this system can damage the community and the game itself.

A system like this is just to unnecessary given the dynamic of Duty Finder. The amount of players who enter DF who actually say to themselves, "I'm geared enough where I"m ok with switching if needed" is pretty low. It's easy enough to find people on this topic who say they will do that however you are the minority.

First of all DF, you enter it on the job that is best geared, so instances like Alexander Midas, wouldn't exactly work to well because the odds of having someone in the group who has an IL comparable to their best is pretty low. Keep that variable in mind, not only are you hoping for a person out of the 7 or less left to want to change, but to also have gear that will make them competent enough to stay alive or deal enough damage. It's just not worth the effort to implement when you take into account that only a handful of people would ever truly make use out of it.

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Originally Posted by Airget

First of all DF, you enter it on the job that is best geared, so instances like Alexander Midas, wouldn't exactly work to well because the odds of having someone in the group who has an IL comparable to their best is pretty low. Keep that variable in mind, not only are you hoping for a person out of the 7 or less left to want to change, but to also have gear that will make them competent enough to stay alive or deal enough damage. It's just not worth the effort to implement when you take into account that only a handful of people would ever truly make use out of it.

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I'm pretty sure that the main concern here isn't stuff like Alexander Midas, which is currently such a hot item that even tanks and healers are replaced nigh-instantly.

This feature would be predominantly for stuff like dungeons, where a DPS often has to wait 15-30 minutes just to get in - and if a tank d/c's, the remaining group might have to wait another 15-30 minuntes for a replacement.

In such cases, I think that allowing party members to swap to needed roles (e.g., if a tank slot is the only one empty, the only allowable job change would be to tank) is a fine idea; even if the queue then resets, if the slot that has now opened up is a DPS slot, it will generally fill pretty quickly.

Needless to say, top quality gear would not be necessary in such cases. :P