Does Royal Authority kinda bug anyone else?

Okay so for those of you who leveled each tank to 60, you may have noticed something "off" about Paladin and Royal Authority. Each tank has a 1-2-3 tier enmity combo, and then Warriors and Dark Knights have a 1-2 split tier 3 combo, that acts as a buff and/or OT utility. But for some reason Royal Authority splits from the Paladins enmity combo. Now while this isn't so bad, a Paladins off combo ends with an ability that creates a DoT. It's a little odd that when you try to refresh your MP that you either refresh the DoT or start a new combo. Anyone else feel like Royal Authority should've branched off of Riot Blade instead?

Blah blah blah homogenization blah blah blah. (It wasn't a knock on your post but a common argument in this subforum)

I personally think it's fine where it is and if anything it further benefits PLD. MP for the most part is non-issue for PLDs thanks to little usage of spells that require MP and Sheltron also giving back enough mp as well as general Goring blade upkeep. Sure Riot blade is 30 more potency than Savage Blade, but Savage Blade has the increased enmity which is highly valuable when SwO tanking or even tanking in general. The less RoHs you have to use the better right? If anything, Royal Authority should have had an additional effect instead of just flat potency.

Slash Resist down or Increased Enmity are two things most PLDs ask for.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Blah blah blah homogenization blah blah blah.

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WHAT?

I didn't say anything about homogenization, I just said where the split combo lies feels odd to me and asked if anyone else felt like that. I have no problem where it is, nor am I or was I asking for it to be switched. I do agree however that Royal Authority should of had some additional benefit, since all other tank combo finishers do.

To be perfectly honest I agree with the op, it's placement feels off. Confused me when setting my hotbars up for 60 because war and drk are 1-2-3, syphon/maim, utility. But that's about it. Either way pld works though, and a little bonus for combo on royal authority wouldn't hurt.

I like how RO works at the moment with just flat out more potency. Keeps the rotation interesting. Enough aggro? eyep! Goring Blade on? eyep ok RO! RO! Your boat gentle down the stream.

ahem sorry....

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

I like how RO works at the moment with just flat out more potency. Keeps the rotation interesting. Enough aggro? eyep! Goring Blade on? eyep ok RO! RO! Your boat gentle down the stream.

ahem sorry....

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You missed a RO in your rotation there :o

Yeah, because if it was on Riot blade, it'd be a 730 potency combo.

Having it branch from Savage blade does two things.
It keeps it at a less absurd 700 combo.
It helps maintain threat better than Riot Blade via Savage's threat modifier.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah, because if it was on Riot blade, it'd be a 730 potency combo.

Having it branch from Savage blade does two things.
It keeps it at a less absurd 700 combo.
It helps maintain threat better than Riot Blade via Savage's threat modifier.

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Why would that be bad, Dark Arts Souleater is 800, granted its with a boosted skill but it is a high potency. Plus Pallies have the lowest strength so having a 730 combo wouldn't be so bad.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Why would that be bad, Dark Arts Souleater is 800, granted its with a boosted skill but it is a high potency. Plus Pallies have the lowest strength so having a 730 combo wouldn't be so bad.

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http://xivdb.com/action/3632/Souleater

Also you can't look at skills in a vacuum. PLD is already doing comparable damage to DRK, any nudge in either direction could send it way too high or way too low. Balance is a bit more tricky than people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

http://xivdb.com/action/3632/Souleater

Also you can't look at skills in a vacuum. PLD is already doing comparable damage to DRK, any nudge in either direction could send it way too high or way too low. Balance is a bit more tricky than people make it out to be.

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Haven't played my pally in a while, but you are right, when I played Pally, DRK or Warrior the damages were abou equal. I just know Pallies have the "lowest" strength but they are still viable. I have no problems with any tank, where as others can't stop bitching, lol, This post is more about something that confounded me, more than made me wanna "bitch" about how "broken" something is, lol.

At least this post went better than the one I made in the healer section, like no one got what I meant at all, like AT ALL.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Haven't played my pally in a while, but you are right, when I played Pally, DRK or Warrior the damages were abou equal. I just know Pallies have the "lowest" strength but they are still viable. I have no problems with any tank, where as others can't stop bitching, lol, This post is more about something that confounded me, more than made me wanna "bitch" about how "broken" something is, lol.

At least this post went better than the one I made in the healer section, like no one got what I meant at all, like AT ALL.

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They got what you meant, but your point was moot anyway.

There's nothing "odd" about the different shield potencies, just as there's nothing odd about RA being off the enmity combo.

You're just making a big deal out of it for no reason

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

They got what you meant, but your point was moot anyway.

There's nothing "odd" about the different shield potencies, just as there's nothing odd about RA being off the enmity combo.

You're just making a big deal out of it for no reason

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I wasn't making a big deal, or not trying to. They didn't get what I was asking and I'm not sure how many people do. Basically my question in its basic form is this,.

Say, this particular "thing" seems odd to me for "this and this" reason, does it seem odd to anyone else?

My questions about Royal Authority, and Adloquium/Aspected Benefic are the SAME. The only difference is that I am comparing 2-3 individual skills in one thread and one skills placement in a combo tier, in comparison to the other similar jobs, in the other. I am not making a big deal out of anything, I was asking people opinions. No one has to feel the same way as me, and I don't expect them to. Its as simple as, do you like this shirt, yes or no.

Also I noticed we are in the same LS, so yay to that, XD.

Well they're not really the same question because situationally both these scenarios are different.

For example, Adlo only seems weird to you because they buffed AST without touching mp costs and the cost of A.B. is referenced to WHM Regen AND SCH adlo, instead of SCH Adlo alone.

And RA is attached to Savage since, at least for me, it allows an MT PLD to stave off hate generated from a WAR (whose highest potency combo is their main enmity combo). I MT A5S and I guarantee my WAR OT would rip hate if I wasn't doing those Savage blades

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

Well they're not really the same question because situationally both these scenarios are different.

For example, Adlo only seems weird to you because they buffed AST without touching mp costs and the cost of A.B. is referenced to WHM Regen AND SCH adlo, instead of SCH Adlo alone.

And RA is attached to Savage since, at least for me, it allows an MT PLD to stave off hate generated from a WAR (whose highest potency combo is their main enmity combo). I MT A5S and I guarantee my WAR OT would rip hate if I wasn't doing those Savage blades

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I can agree to the questions not being entirely the same, though the objectivity is the same at least.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Now while this isn't so bad, a Paladins off combo ends with an ability that creates a DoT. It's a little odd that when you try to refresh your MP that you either refresh the DoT or start a new combo.

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The Savage combos, for reference

150 Fast Blade
200 Savage Blade
260 Rage of Halone
===
610 total ... 203 per GCD


150 Fast Blade
200 Savage Blade
350 Royal Authority
===
700 total ... 233 per GCD

150 Fast Blade
230 Riot Blade
===
380 total ... 190 per GCD


150 Fast Blade
230 Riot Blade -- then abort combo
150 Fast Blade
200 Savage Blade
350 Royal Authority
===
1080 total ... 216 per GCD


150 Fast Blade
230 Riot Blade
240 Goring Blade
===
620 total ... 206 per GCD

with ticks
1 tick ... 670 total ... 223 per GCD -- outperforms a Riot Blade combo abort
2 tick ... 720 total ... 240 per GCD -- outperforms midcombat Royal Authority combo
...
7 tick ... 970 total ... 323 per GCD
8 tick ... 1020 total ... 340 per GCD


So if Goring Blade will tick at least once (it absolutely will, if we're considering the alternative of going back to Fast Blade instead) you do more damage reapplying it than aborting after Riot Blade.

I actually think the OP makes complete sense and I think that would be better.

Combo 1 - Fast Blade > Savage Blade > ROH

Combo 2 - Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Goring Blade

Combo 3 - Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority

No, because losing an enmity skill on your most frequent combo means you'll end up needing to use more Halone and dropping DPS.

You're using savage blade every 3 combos to keep up goring blade. And if it's a raid, you probably want to keep halone up anyways for the debuff

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

You're using savage blade every 3 combos to keep up goring blade. And if it's a raid, you probably want to keep halone up anyways for the debuff

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Once every third combo isn't enough with good DPS, you'll end up needing to use Halone a lot more often. High uptime on Halone in raids is completely unnecessary, you only want it up before instances of really high physical damage.

Maybe just remove the enmity from savage blade and give it to fast blade instead

For consideration, the maths for if Goring Blade and Royal Authority were swapped


If Goring Blade and Royal Authority were swapped

150 Fast Blade
230 Riot Blade
350 Royal Authority
===
730 total ... 243 per GCD

150 Fast Blade
200 Savage Blade
240 Goring Blade
===
590 total ... 196 per GCD

Goring Blade Combo with ticks
1 tick ... 640 total ... 213 per GCD
2 tick ... 690 total ... 230 per GCD
3 tick ... 740 total ... 246 per GCD -- outperforms Royal Authority
...
8 tick ... 990 total ... 330 per GCD

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

I actually think the OP makes complete sense and I think that would be better.

Combo 1 - Fast Blade > Savage Blade > ROH

Combo 2 - Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Goring Blade

Combo 3 - Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority

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I actually like this layout a bit better, though my crossbar would still be a mess, lol. Lets be honest the main reason we ask questions about these skill is our hotbars/crossbars arent pretty enough, lol.

The thing about Pld is that everything is that it's timed to the second and lines up really well. DoT's go off without a hitch, and you can sustain your enmity lead without too much concern, even with Pld's lower enmity gen. Their combos flow so smoothly into one another that it makes their rotation the most fluid of the three tanks, especially because they don't suffer the same clutter of oGCDs (drk's) or buff stacks (war). Personally, I don't find that "odd," per se. I actually like the way that everything on Pld can be timed out on a stop watch.

If there's anything that I do find unusual about Royal Authority it isn't its placement. It's the lack of effect. RA has no additional effects other than a straight boost to dps. The lack of enmity generation makes perfect sense, because if it did have a bonus we'd have no use for RoH, but the lack of any kind of status effect (to self or the enemy) is kind of strange. The absence of any such feature kind of makes RA the odd tank combo out, because it's the only one out of all three tanks that does absolutely nothing other than Dps. That's not necessarily a bad thing or a problem, mind you, but I do find it kind of odd. It's like SE ran out of ideas, or something.

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Originally Posted by Februs

If there's anything that I do find unusual about Royal Authority it isn't its placement. It's the lack of effect.

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most likely to keep paladin simple "I guess" and keep its role as the "pick up" tank. Think about it. Until heavensward paladin only had 1 combo (which was odd design period, but whatever). May not be the truth, but who even knows. With how odd square designed pre-lvl 50 paladin I wouldn't be surprised.

Plus I can't really think of an effect to add on to RA besides maybe the slashing debuff? Eh.

Why not a dmg buff to party member or something else related to leading people ?

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

most likely to keep paladin simple "I guess" and keep its role as the "pick up" tank. Think about it. Until heavensward paladin only had 1 combo (which was odd design period, but whatever). May not be the truth, but who even knows. With how odd square designed pre-lvl 50 paladin I wouldn't be surprised.

Plus I can't really think of an effect to add on to RA besides maybe the slashing debuff? Eh.

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-10% damage outgoing for 20 seconds, stackable with RoH, or have Royal give a buff that increases parry and block potency. Why not.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

-10% damage outgoing for 20 seconds, stackable with RoH, or have Royal give a buff that increases parry and block potency. Why not.

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That's gonna be quite OP. PLD/MNK at the moment is in for the best mitigation. Divine Veil/RoH/DK/Mantra/Storm's Path combination makes a lot of things way easier than it should be. If PLD gets another -10% damage incoming that is stackable with Path, you will see DRK getting dustier as it is now (apart from the more DPS that DRK can give, which for clearing is never an issue due to how much more lenient DPS checks are in Midas Savage).

On the topic, Royal Authority doesn't need any additional effect since it's one of the best GCD, rocking high potency for immediate use at 350pot (and easily spammable at that vs Fell Cleave) if you are comparing potency counts to other classes. It really does seem weird to have Royal Authority branched out from Savage Blade considering they could have done SB>RA and SB>GB pertaining to having more DPS. But it's all nice too to be able to hold aggro with the better enmity generation from Savage Blade. No complaint.

RA combo is NICE that it is 700 pot AND still has some enmity boost.

DRK can do do 680 without DA, but it just ends in a debuff and grants MP. No extra enmity.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

Plus I can't really think of an effect to add on to RA besides maybe the slashing debuff? Eh.

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Agreed. Like I said, it doesn't really need an additional effect. It's just kind of odd that it doesn't have one when every other tank combo does.

That said, if they were to have added an additional effect to RA, I wouldn't want it to be a slashing debuff. I'm not a fan of copy and pasting other Tank abilities, especially when there's one tank that already does it better. If I were pushed to come up with something, though, my first idea would be the simplest one possible, which is to have RA's damage potency ignore the damage penalty of Shield Oath. Simple and effective.

Another, slightly more interesting, idea would be to have RA apply a self buff that increases Pld Skill/Spell Speed. Ideally, the effect would be determined by which Oath they are in (ie: ShO = Spell Speed increase / ShO = Skill Speed increase or vice versa, wherein the current effect is canceled upon swapping oaths). Of course, this would not be possible for SE to do with the current kit. Mp is somewhat sustainable on Pld, but Tp would likely drop like a rock without some form of TP sustain.

That's just two things off the top of my head, though. Honestly, there are a lot of other options, but most of them are shut down by the fact that SE seems to be firmly set against allowing for any variety in game-play with Pld, especially between Oaths. As long as Pld plays exactly the same way regardless of what Oath they're in, the options for their improvement are extremely limited, which is kind of a shame. I get that Pld is supposed to be the "simple tank," but there's a point when simplicity hinders utility. Besides, it's not like Pld would have been made overly difficult to play or learn by changing their bonus effects depending on Oath. That's still really simple design compared to managing wrath/abandon stacks or Mp on top of a plethora of oGCDs.

I hate when the argument for not adding/changing abilities for PLD are denied because SE wants PLD to stay "simple".
Their PLD design was pretty simple in ARR, but when HW came out many abilities were added to push PLD away from the standard 1-2-3 halone spam.

Granted the play style is still more straight forward than WAR/DRK. However, this is the exact reason that gives PLD room to grow.

All in all, we wont see anything beyond more TP/potency adjustment until 4.0.

Other than the WAR major rework in 2.1, SE doesn't really add much to a class beyond TP/potency adjustment mid expansion

This is going to sound weird, but my main issue with RA is that the 2-3 part is a spinning sword slash followed by another spinning sword slash only with a jump.

At present, choosing RA over RoH gives you 90 more potency in exchange for 950 less enmity potency. If you make RA branch off of RB instead of SB, using the RA combo will give you 120 more potency over the RoH combo in exchange for 1420 less enmity potency. Already, looking at the ratios of the two, it looks like a poorer trade-off, but let's continue with this.

Although you're now gaining an extra 30 potency every time you use the RA combo, you need to make up an extra 470 enmity potency for each combo. This works out to be an extra RoH every 3 times you choose RA. So you gain 90 potency over 3 RA combos, but lose 120 from having to use an extra RoH. It's a minor dps loss, but maybe you could use the extra MP from RB for something.

The difference would have been smaller pre-3.2 where the enmity modifier on SB was 3x instead of 3.5x, but it works out instead to be an extra RoH every 3.5 uses of RA. The enmity modifier on SB would have to be smaller for you to break even.

There's a couple reasons why there isn't any effect tied to RA. First, PLD is the only tank class which has it's utility/mitigation effect also tied to its enmity combo (in 2.x this was PLD's damage combo as well). BB and PS have no effects tied to them other than additional enmity. Bear in mind that the physical damage down effect from RoH is also an effect which no other job in the game can provide, and in conjunction with block gives PLD a clear mitigation advantage in physical fights.

The other reason is if you did add an SE equivalent, which has to be reapplied every second combo or so, you still have to juggle it with GB, which has to be reapplied every third combo. It then becomes difficult to fit RoH into your rotation without dropping one of the effects. So if you're going to add an effect to RA, it has to either only be reapplied every third combo (or longer), or give an optional effect which you don't need 100% uptime on.

I don't think it's "off". It's just different. Plays fine to me.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Since you mentioned it, or something similar, what about a form of TP regen added to, RA, its different. Of course I guess one could argue why not just reduce to TP cost or something, but its a starting place.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Another, slightly more interesting, idea would be to have RA apply a self buff that increases Pld Skill/Spell Speed. Ideally, the effect would be determined by which Oath they are in (ie: ShO = Spell Speed increase / ShO = Skill Speed increase or.

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I vote for a spell speed increase. Said that a while back myself, that or a certain % that it enables a swift cast type ability. Would help with throwing up Stone skin and would allow more spells to be added to the job at a later date without cutting too heavily into it's damage.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Since you mentioned it, or something similar, what about a form of TP regen added to, RA, its different. Of course I guess one could argue why not just reduce to TP cost or something, but its a starting place.

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No, you are correct. TP regeneration is far superior to simply reducing Tp costs, because reductions to Tp costs are temporary stopgap measures only.

As our gear levels increase, so too does our skill speed. The more skill speed we get, the more Tp we drain. Even post patch 3.2, I've already started to notice an marked decrease in my Tp at the end of pulls and boss fights as I gear up in more and more ilvl 230 gear, especially if I use my full utility and stun Mob AoE's (god forbid I actually use Shield Bash). SE could just reduce our Tp costs, again, but that would only postpone the problem again. Besides, there's a limit to how often they can simply reduce Tp costs before they hit zero and it makes the whole concept pointless, so it's really not the best idea.

A better idea is to give Pld's a way to actually sustain their Tp. We don't have access to a lot of oGCD's, so that's not an option. Increasing our Mp draw be a good idea, but Clem/Flash are not always needed and don't do damage. We also have no offensive spells (why we didn't get that AoE that Solkzagyl casts during the lvl 60 quest is beyond me), so that doesn't work either. The most viable option (at the moment) is to give Pld's a Tp replenishment of some kind. SE should have come to this conclusion a long time ago (like, before Heavensward came out), but so far they seem to prefer the flimsy bandage method of addressing Tank problems.