What if Crafting were actually hard?

Crafting seems to be a hot topic, and this is something I've had sitting in the back of my head for a while.

What if crafting were actually hard? I don't mean a higher chance of failure, I mean replacing the synthesis minigame entirely with something in which success or failure depends (almost) entirely on the skill of the player and the stats of the character, rather than a series of random numbers?

Randomness undermines skill. If, for a given synthesis, I have a 40% chance of success if I just spam enter, but a 50% chance if I play carefully, (by using Wait, Preserve, etc), then the difference in output between me (a player) and your average "wobblybird on the keyboard" is only 25%.

Compare that to combat. A wobblybird on the keyboard even if presented with an endless supply of one-on-one encounters, will not be able to even compare to a human player in a grind party.

Every singleplayer FF title has had a host of minigames to go with it. I would like to see a puzzle-based minigame for crafting.

Unfortunately, it would be fun for the first few days. Then it would become extremely, extremely annoying.

Less people wouldn't mind crafting if 1) it was more interesting like you suggested and 2) The XP rate wasn't relatively abysmal later on.

if crafting didn't require leveling, I could see that as a viable option, but really not for grinding

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Unfortunately, it would be fun for the first few days. Then it would become extremely, extremely annoying.

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Not if it has any depth. The quickest source of game burnout is total mastery. Once a player has no further room to improve, they'll very quickly abandon the game.

On the other hand, puzzle games like Hexagon Conundrum or Popcap's Alchemy remain fun for a very long time, even without extra progression (synthesis abilities), or reward (items) that would have to be present.

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Less people wouldn't mind crafting if 1) it was more interesting like you suggested and 2) The XP rate wasn't relatively abysmal later on.

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if crafting didn't require leveling, I could see that as a viable option, but really not for grinding

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I also think that the EXP rate is terrible and needs to be improved, but that's a separate issue entirely, and already has its own thread. The minigame would also need to cap the benefits of outleveling a recipe so that doing a recipe 30 levels below you doesn't guarantee HQ (and also have HQ be possible for a player of the appropriate level if they are skillful, and maybe a little lucky).

Find a way to make crafting hard yet fun, and I'm on board with this.

But it's almost impossible to make crafting fun.

I've always thought that higher quality should substantially boost XP, since it's probably the best way to make the system more meaningful but allow the "tune out" option. Getting higher quality is quite difficult but of course it would need to be a bit less luck based.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I've always thought that higher quality should substantially boost XP, since it's probably the best way to make the system more meaningful but allow the "tune out" option. Getting higher quality is quite difficult but of course it would need to be a bit less luck based.

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I would agree with this if "playing the game" rather than tuning it out actually increased likelihood of HQ. I haven't really noticed any difference between spamming enter vs. carefully playing on HQ. I'm probably improving my HQ chance from 2% to 2.2% or something, but it's not enough to notice.

The whole system needs to be replaced before there can really be any significant difference between tuning it out or playing.

I don't think tuning it out is healthy for the game at all. A game is something we play to have fun - if the game is so boring that we do things like watch TV to distract ourselves from what's going on in the game, something is seriously wrong.

Actually, I totally agree with the minigame idea.

I hate crafting. I can't stand it... but DoL.. I love it. The minigames keep me interested.

Totally agree man.

Turn crafting into a spin off game of tetris :p

I remember a mini game from Brave Fencer Musashi where his mission is prevent the steam generator exploding

what if the minigame is like this

we got a bar like this

|-----F-----|----S---|-F-|--R--|-F-|--B--|--F--|

Where:

F=Fail
S=Standar Synth
R=Rapid
B=Bold

Every attempt of synth there will be a gauge, player must hit where it wants to perform the type of synth
The gauge will reset if player didnt hit the button, but if they didnt hit before a timer runs,it will consider fail attempt
The difference of player rank from recipe level will determine the gauge speed,the width of each synth, and the timer

elemental status can make your gauge point + or - from the point you hit the button

well, I hope you can understand what I explaining lol

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The alternative, F section only make the gauge reset, so the challenge is to hit the preffered snyth before the timer runs out(which is fail attempt), every percentage of progress will decrease the timer of next snyth (similiar to BFM minigame,which certain pipes have shorter duration)

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To add a bit randomness, the speed of gauge may change on each attempt of snyth based on the zone it hit, if you hit standard, no changes, if you hit rapid it goes faster, if bold it goes slower (only for next synth attempt/progresssion). Fail zone can make it slower or faster, and elemental status will change the gauge speed until it stabilized

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Less people wouldn't mind crafting if 1) it was more interesting like you suggested and 2) The XP rate wasn't relatively abysmal later on.

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2 was fixed with the addtion of 51+ recipes in 1.19

and 1 is pretty much imposible to fix unless you make it more annoying at the same time in the process

I dont know about you guys,

But hitting enter for 4 hours straight is pretty mentally taxing.

I'm all for making crafting into a fun minigame, the problem is making it into one that doesnt become extremely tedious as it goes on which could require a large amount of dev time by itself, as it would essentially be its own game within a game (Maybe try introducing new elements every 10 levels.)

Though I suppose EQ2 does have that whole trading card game you can play while playing EQ2.

Though the last time Square released a puzzle game they had popcap do it..




...also the steam generator is where most people ragequit brave fencer musashi.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

I'm all for making crafting into a fun minigame, the problem is making it into one that doesnt become extremely tedious as it goes on which could require a large amount of dev time by itself, as it would essentially be its own game within a game (Maybe try introducing new elements every 10 levels.)

Though I suppose EQ2 does have that whole trading card game you can play while playing EQ2.

Though the last time Square released a puzzle game they had popcap do it..




...also the steam generator is where most people ragequit brave fencer musashi.

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lol really? but its thrilling, race against the time lol, testing your jump skills too

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

2 was fixed with the addtion of 51+ recipes in 1.19

and 1 is pretty much imposible to fix unless you make it more annoying at the same time in the process

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quoted for truth being spoken.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

2 was fixed with the addtion of 51+ recipes in 1.19

and 1 is pretty much imposible to fix unless you make it more annoying at the same time in the process

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Yep, most of the recipes added over level 50 seem to be level 53, thus giving a decent boost to those last few grinds; however, the mats for almost all of those recipes are either insanely expensive or time-consuming to obtain. Note that i'm not saying they shouldn't be, just that i'd much rather grind out leves than farm karakul fleece for days on end to have enough to grind out felt recipes to 50. (As an example, LW is just as bad)

Why the hell don't they add fun and addictive minigames (like Tetris or Puzzle Pirates) fo crafting?
Now granted, the parley minigame is a snoozefest, but at least it required your attention...

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Originally Posted by Misteyes

Crafting seems to be a hot topic, and this is something I've had sitting in the back of my head for a while.

What if crafting were actually hard? I don't mean a higher chance of failure, I mean replacing the synthesis minigame entirely with something in which success or failure depends (almost) entirely on the skill of the player and the stats of the character, rather than a series of random numbers?

Randomness undermines skill. If, for a given synthesis, I have a 40% chance of success if I just spam enter, but a 50% chance if I play carefully, (by using Wait, Preserve, etc), then the difference in output between me (a player) and your average "wobblybird on the keyboard" is only 25%.

Compare that to combat. A wobblybird on the keyboard even if presented with an endless supply of one-on-one encounters, will not be able to even compare to a human player in a grind party.

Every singleplayer FF title has had a host of minigames to go with it. I would like to see a puzzle-based minigame for crafting.

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I agree with the 2nd post in the thread. IF I have to do this with 6-8 local lvl daily and each recipe 5-7 craft, i ll go insane.

I d suggest: that I ll be able to control my craft more rather than dealing with the randomness elemental

ninja edit: as ppl say "spam-the-enter" <---- only work for recipe = your lvl or below, if you plan to craft recipe above your lvl with just "spam-the-enter" you ll need luck to get it done (around 5+ lvl above)

Crafting finished items should involve skill, especially materia attachment and HQ synthesis.

But there needs to be an alternative method to progression other than flatout grinding. Obviously to be a successful crafter, being a successful merchant should be a part of the gameplay, so there does need to be some degree of mat-buying and farming involved (in my opinion), but I think it would be better if progression wasn't just a flat-out grind.

There are multiple ways to make progression less boring. One way is to incorporate the grind into doing quess (and I dont mean levequests). For example, they could make it that you have to repair certain barricades for your free company or grand company, or go on quests into the wilderness to build staff or make gear for people. In otherwords, you would still be consuming items, but it would make for more interesting gameplay and get you out and about, experiencing the world. They could balance the progression system so that time/exp is slightly better than flat-out grinding so that people choose the more interesting progression style over boring grind.

I guess that would be my vision for crafting. There is a lot you can do with it, but in general, without resorting to specifics, the main points are:

-Make crafting involving and skill-based for finished items and materia attachment
-And also, make the progression system less invested in repetitive grinding of mats

I hate the current minigame, its absolute pointless and a waste of time, resources and existence when im grinding. Because my optimal grind can be done by just doing standard, so now the minigame is just delaying the EXP Gain.

Considering dow can go 1-50 in a day, Crafting should have the option to ignore minigame and base it on a pure random luck number, guess count in skills but you have the choice: Minigame = Control = Likely Success, No-minigame = Dumb Luck = Speed.

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Originally Posted by viion

I hate the current minigame, its absolute pointless and a waste of time, resources and existence when im grinding. Because my optimal grind can be done by just doing standard, so now the minigame is just delaying the EXP Gain.

Considering dow can go 1-50 in a day, Crafting should have the option to ignore minigame and base it on a pure random luck number, guess count in skills but you have the choice: Minigame = Control = Likely Success, No-minigame = Dumb Luck = Speed.

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That would be the purpose of "hasty hand", if the exp gained was not cut in more than half when using it

Crafting + Rubik's Cube!

Does anyone else think way back to Puzzle Pirates beta and how each station and craft had its own minigame? Yeah, that's my take

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Originally Posted by northernsky

That would be the purpose of "hasty hand", if the exp gained was not cut in more than half when using it

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Yes but sadly it reduces your EXP by a huge amount, even your success rate for something I can do pants with Standard is like 50% or less.

I thought Yoshi-P said one of those interviews, he wants to make an auto craft option and then you can do it the way we have now for HQ chance. I don't remember which interview but I'm pretty sure he said that.

Basically Auto craft = NQ items only and fail-rate based level and Stats.

Normal way would be like we have now but you can aim for HQ.

The problem with crafting is the INSANE amount of repitition. It takes about 1 hour, by my count, to get 100k exp off of 200 exp synths.

Getting from 26-27 takes nearly 30k exp. Which means sitting at my computer spamming enter for literaly 3 hours. Not engaging. Not fun. Incredibly repetitive and boring.

The problem is the system has tons of facial depth:
4 orb states, 3 base synth types. 3 stats to consider while crafting : Durability, Progress and Quality. And then the "touch up" system at the end. And then there's the elemental effects to try to avoid / deal with!

But once you actually start synthing and if you really get into it the problems become apparent:
Normal synth is the only synth worth using 95% of the time. "Rapid synth" is a trap, because even though it's more progress the higher chance of failure will almost ALWAYS slow you down. Careful synth is also a trap, because quality has a minimal impact on whether or not an item ends up being +1 or not, and because it eats durability it cuts your ability to touch up at the end.

Then there's the 3 orb colors, but what do they mean? Who cares! It's obvious isn't it: White = good, everything else = kind of bad. Also, don't get me started on how you're almost 100% at the mercy of the RNG gods when crafting. Trying to do something difficult? It doesn't matter if you have the workshop buff, food buff, and an intimate knowledge of how to use your skills. You will still go unstable on your first normal synth on a white orb, and then chaotic on your next one, eating half of your durability in two synths.

Then, to top it all off, the system greatly favors spamming easy synths over and over, rather than gathering several things together to make finished items. To get optimal exp it's best to just grind a mat until your finger goes numb.

These things all combine for a terrible crafting experience, which is disguised as something interesting and engaging. Something with so much potential, almost universially wasted.

Edit: Oh yeah, don't forget that HQ doesn't even really matter for anything other than weapons! Getting a +1 / +2 / +3 weapon when you're doing 10 damage is like a 10% increase in damage or more. But, getting a +1 armor giving you 7 more defense.... a stat that only matters to people tanking. Pointless.

Check out my idea:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...252#post416252

its not a bad idea when u first think of it. but my only fear is if crafting got harder a knock-on affect would be less items for sale, which would lead to higher prices. and if when the P2P comes in and we lose some ppl's then there could be less craftrs to begin with

Inb4 "Crafting is too hard, can we make it more simple?"