Ninja Raiton VS Fuma

This was probably discussed heavily before but I may have found a time to use fuma over Raiton.

In my opener that I created, I have a mch buddy that I raid with, I use that physical damage buff a lot. So that means that with all my buffs up in my opener, I have DE + B4B + poison + phys vuln up from mch compared to only B4B for fuma. What I also do is I suiton at the start and let the mudra come off cd before using Kassatsu so I get two fuma shurikens buffed by B4B + poison + DE (360 pot*2) compared to a fuma + raiton buffed by B4B (360 + 396 - 1 sec gcd).

Here is a video of me doing the A7S dps check with the opener I described. It also explains that since I don't use Raiton, I lose as little gcd time as possible meaning I can also get one more attack in at the last second.
I slowed it down a bit so it's easier to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Yr...ature=youtu.be

In this scenario, if it's just a straight parse with a mch, is it even worth using Raiton?

I feel like if you do it right, you shouldn't ever have an issue with gcd clipping on raiton.

Should add up the #s, first if you could get the same # of skills off.

Raiton = 360 +10%B4B +10%TA = 432
Fuma = 240 +20%stance +10%B4B +10%TA +10%MCH +10%DE = 384

If your next Raiton would lose buffs where fuma wouldn't then you'd do 432+ 2nd one at 360 for 792 total vs 2 boosted fumas....768. Still nope. Closer, but still nope.

For me it's just trial and error, by that i mean finding which bosses have high magic resistance. In those instances i use Fuma and i agree with clipping. It doesn't matter how fast you are, using Raiton will always clip your next attack with high end gear. Anywhere from .10-.75 seconds depending on which ability you used before Raiton because some have longer animation delays. Long story short Fuma appears to be better on low physical resist enemies.

All mobs have the same defense and resistances, zero and 100 for resistances(?), unless affected by an outside source.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I feel like if you do it right, you shouldn't ever have an issue with gcd clipping on raiton.

---

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...a-mudra-fixed/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGMidlander

https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...a-mudra-fixed/

---

And while that's good to know for its own sake and why skillspeed is bad on ninja, like I showed in my previous post, whether or not there's a delay in doing raiton vs fuma, fuma loses.

Raiton>Fuma at all times. Always.

With the mudra changes you have to have some serious lag to even consider using Fuma.

I'm not sold on that. It'd help if I had frame-by-frame mudra timings post-3.1, but here's what I'm working with.

Potency of Raiton spam: 360 / 21s = 17.1428571 pps
Potency of Shuriken spam: 240 * 1.2 * 1.1 / 20.5s = 15.4536585 pps
17.1428571-15.4536585 = 1.6891986 pps difference

Average GCD in HW does a bit more than 170 pps, so you're only coming out on top in the general case if the clipping is <10ms. That means if you have any noticeable clipping whatsoever, you've basically lost pps.

That is not to say Raiton is worse in every case, of course, especially post-3.1. With no serious lag and no Hypercharge, it's definitely worth it for the opener TA (since you should be able to get that buffed Aeolian either way), and quite possibly every Kassatsu+TA (harder to say). Obviously, Hypercharge, Foe Requiem, distance from the target, length of GCD (Slow, messed up Huton, level sync'd below Huton), any unusual physical/magical resistance buffs the target has, and fixed phase lengths are other important factors in choosing between the two as well. And I did thumbs-up preferring Raiton pre-3.2 since NIN TP was an issue then.

I'm not sure what's proper to do if it falls within a buff like IR or BfB; it's a longer window than TA and your GCDs are getting those same buffs, after all.

There have been calculations done that show that with no buffs active, Raiton beats out Fuma unless Raiton would clip your GCD by more than about 0.35 seconds. Full list is here: http://dtguilds.enjin.com/shastasninguide scroll down to the Fuma v. Raiton section.

The TL;DR is Raiton>Fuma, unless you have awful latency.

EDIT: I have done extensive testing for myself, and have found that my absolute worst clip with Raiton is 0.22 seconds. I have an ok broadband connection and don't use a VPN.

I've seen that sheet. However, the math there isn't nearly as good as what I just posted ;)

Some problems with that sheet (in order of significance):

- It assumes you don't use DoTs. That's a big proportion of your GCD damage (~18-19%), so that's a poor assumption.
- It does not account for the extra cooldown time induced by Raiton.
- Hence, it does not account for additional Trick Attack downtime, either.
- By putting it at the top of the document, it gives more prominence to the "additive buffs" theory--which has been discredited since 2013--than to the multiplicative buffs.

I've only now been putting a NIN model together after putting it off for so long, but the preliminary results suggest that using Raiton only is overall ~1 DPS loss at current gear levels (with an average ~10.5% GCD clip). So, not that this matters a lot, but I'm still pretty sure I'm right, neener neener.

eh, I get higher dps by using raiton, and so do the NINs on my server I've spoken to about it. *Shrug*

Assigning PPS for Raiton/Fuma is only valid if you're perfect about using ninjutsu as soon as its up (which will never be the case), and also for an infinitely long fight. The difference in mudra cooldown from using Raiton to Fuma is so negligible that you'll never gain another ninjutsu cast by using Fuma exclusively, as such, normalizing the damage for Raiton and Fuma isn't really applicable.

I use a mix of Raiton and Fuma. Raiton for when im doing TA and/or Kassatsu or have buffs up. Fuma for when I dont have buffs, or know I'll be very tight fitting in a GCD before a jump/invuln. One case where I use raiton a lot is when attacking a new add. If mudras are up and ready its best to use Raiton right away since slashing buff isnt up. If you wait for slashing buff to get up and then use Fuma, you're likely missing 6-8seconds on your mudra cooldown.

They both have their uses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Assigning PPS for Raiton/Fuma is only valid if you're perfect about using ninjutsu as soon as its up (which will never be the case), and also for an infinitely long fight. The difference in mudra cooldown from using Raiton to Fuma is so negligible that you'll never gain another ninjutsu cast by using Fuma exclusively, as such, normalizing the damage for Raiton and Fuma isn't really applicable.

---

I do it often enough in practice to claim that nearly all my Shuriken usage is off cooldown. If anything, these numbers are biased towards Raiton's effectiveness because in practice you'd be more likely to need to wait on the GCD for it at times when Shuriken is available right away. So I disagree both that the time difference is negligible and that it is impracticable to use ninjutsu this way.

And we don't theorycraft infinite duration because you actually have that much uptime; we do it because it's a probabilistic measure for indeterminate cutoffs. This is useful for when we're looking for "best practices" in an imperfect world instead of micro-optimizing a run (and considering the statement I am refuting is "Raiton always", the duration "for all time" seems appropriate anyhow). There are plenty of superstar DPS who say goofball things along those lines, when in truth 99% of what they really do right is kiss the ring of the DPS Don and swear their fealty to Uptime the King.

Even putting it in concrete terms, though, we can see that it's not really about any extra ninjutsu. We can estimate that after a full-uptime Ninjutsu loop (~130.1s 2xSuiton 1xRaiton 4xShuriken vs. ~132.1s 2xSuiton 5xRaiton) we've gained nearly a full GCD in the same timespan. Sac ~200 potency from Ninjutsu over this period to gain a whole GCD? Realistically short timeframe? ((Yes, please.))

Raiton may not be so bad as that in actuality, but I do need accurate mudra timings that aren't from pre-3.1 to show that. And to repeat myself, one or the other will be a clearly better candidate instead of a near toss-up depending on the situation.