I think this game could use a warlock class.

Here's my reason why:

https://i.imgflip.com/11tly0.jpg

And give emerald carbuncle to warlock, please.

Traditional Summoner where summons are just excuses for really big effect spells and nothing stays around?

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Traditional Summoner where summons are just excuses for really big effect spells and nothing stays around?

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This.

It's sad people have to be constantly reminded of what summons in FF games were really like.

That said, here. If you're up for a read, I tried to make SMN even more like WoW warlocks. And it turned out into even more of a summoner as a result. >.>

if only the summoner........COMMANDED the pet to do all the work , instead of the summoner casting spells....kinda like enkindle but with 75% of the spells... u know summoner summon things to do the work for him/her....u are there to help, no the other way around , u can heal it , buff it to do more dmg ...the summon should do 80% of the dmg and smn 20%...

if SE implements BST i hope is has more synergy with the beast .....

I personally like summoner the way it is now. The way it was in ffxi was very boring to me. Not to mention the way you guys want it would give another reason for lazy players to be even more lazy and get away with it to.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Traditional Summoner where summons are just excuses for really big effect spells and nothing stays around?

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Everyone knows traditional summoner is FFXI summoner. Nevermind that Rydia was a BLM, or that Garnet, Eiko, and Yuna were your healers. It's all about FFXI's version. The job is not allowed to change from game to game.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Everyone knows traditional summoner is FFXI summoner. Nevermind that Rydia was a BLM, or that Garnet, Eiko, and Yuna were your healers. It's all about FFXI's version. The job is not allowed to change from game to game.

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In FFXI everyone had subjobs... summoner there wasn't a pure summoner either, they could sub with whm or blm. Also FFV had summoners and a job system.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

In FFXI everyone had subjobs... summoner there wasn't a pure summoner either, they could sub with whm or blm. Also FFV had summoners and a job system.

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I'd actually say more often than not in XI your summoner was your healer lol. Summoner is allowed to be varied in playstyle from game to game. I find the whole "traditional summoner" notion to be very silly.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I'd actually say more often than not in XI your summoner was your healer lol. Summoner is allowed to be varied in playstyle from game to game. I find the whole "traditional summoner" notion to be very silly.

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Yeah, I mean theres a lot of non-traditional things varied in a few FFs. I think the way SMN is here suits it but I definitely cannot wait for the pet glams. :D

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Traditional Summoner where summons are just excuses for really big effect spells and nothing stays around?

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Yes.

Please.

I love blm because of the big windup and big payoff. Hitting 60 just made it better. Huge charge times with huge animations would be a way more satisfying than stealing a completely unrelated class and calling it summoner. The fantasy of every other FF class is met in this game, but summoner is just boring.

How about a Traditional Summoner as in a Summoner who can summon almost all existing "Summons" and where every Summon is unique in some way...
just saying....

I don't mind if they're small, I just want them to be more meaningful than they are now...

Also, lore is just an excuse since it's only mentioned in the Summoner questline
and if they're constantly draining us even when not active then why wouldn't we be able to use them all at the same time.
#plothole

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/q...14/2vjueyb.jpg

SMN is fine. What you envision as FF's "traditional" SMN would simply not work here.

What we should really do, is make this class like a true summoner. Draw lines in the ground, incantations, blood sacrifices etc. Here's a simple guide:

http://i.imgur.com/xVlEC9n.png

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

if only the summoner........COMMANDED the pet to do all the work , instead of the summoner casting spells....kinda like enkindle but with 75% of the spells... u know summoner summon things to do the work for him/her....u are there to help, no the other way around , u can heal it , buff it to do more dmg ...the summon should do 80% of the dmg and smn 20%...

if SE implements BST i hope is has more synergy with the beast .....

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Most smn's I know completely micromanage their Egi's skills, very little is left to "the pet just doing it's thing", same with most sch's that I know

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

HAlso, lore is just an excuse since it's only mentioned in the Summoner questline
and if they're constantly draining us even when not active then why wouldn't we be able to use them all at the same time.
#plothole

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All living things have a finite amount of aether. the amount that would be consumed doing that, would kill us. It's why we can't summon a Ramuh egi at the moment, the tax it took on us was too much with the other two egis. Dreadwyrm stance is a "workaround" for them because what it's doing is charging our aether to match the dreadwyrm's aether that's around us in small doses after the calamity, giving us moments of power boost, which is also taxing on us but on a far lesser scale than materializing a shard of the primal itself. Lore isn't just an excuse, you just don't like it. And of course it's mentioned in the summoner questline, it's summoner lore.

I loved xi summoner. It took effort to get all the primals and the class had alot of summons and interesting abilities. Endgame summoners could keep diabolos or fenrir out full time and even have a 1tic refresh. All the -seconds on bloodpact.. i had mine down to 43 seconds when i quit believe.
Main reason i loved summoner on ffxi was i was summoning somthing that looked very strong and dangerous not summoning the equivalent of a pokemon like in ffxiv. I also didnt feel like a blackmage with a pet that required no interaction like this games summoner. This games summoner is a joke. I know people enjoy it though so whatever. Keep doting and spamming ruin if thats your shtick for summoner. I refuse to do anything that boring. In memory of how fun ffxi summoner was.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I loved xi summoner. It took effort to get all the primals and the class had alot of summons and interesting abilities. Endgame summoners could keep diabolos or fenrir out full time and even have a 1tic refresh. All the -seconds on bloodpact.. i had mine down to 43 seconds when i quit believe.
Main reason i loved summoner on ffxi was i was summoning somthing that looked very strong and dangerous not summoning the equivalent of a pokemon like in ffxiv. I also didnt feel like a blackmage with a pet that required no interaction like this games summoner. This games summoner is a joke. I know people enjoy it though so whatever. Keep doting and spamming ruin if thats your shtick for summoner. I refuse to do anything that boring. In memory of how fun ffxi summoner was.

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I envy you. Endgame SMN with the people I played with was "Stand there and heal," or "Use Aerial Armor because this is before tanks knew how good /nin was," or more likely "Go change jobs."

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/q...14/2vjueyb.jpg

SMN is fine. What you envision as FF's "traditional" SMN would simply not work here.

What we should really do, is make this class like a true summoner. Draw lines in the ground, incantations, blood sacrifices etc. Here's a simple guide:

http://i.imgur.com/xVlEC9n.png

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That actually makes a little bit of sense. Arcanists are known for using symbols and mathematical formulas for their magics, but somehow I doubt this will be able to be worked in the game mechanics

I'm not sure you understood what I said...
Currently in the lore they've defined it so that egis constantly take a toll on our aether whether or not we currently have them out. Using that logic, we should be able to have two or three different egi out at the same time since they're draining me at the same rate anyway. So my point was that they introduced a plot hole by defining summoning in that way.
The fact that we originally we're going to get more egis but they changed their mind means that lore is just up to the whim of the developers and in the end it's just game design. I just think it's bad game design since it doesn't portray the image of a classic Summoner the way the other jobs portray their origins...

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

I'm not sure you understood what I said...
Currently in the lore they've defined it so that egis constantly take a toll on our aether whether or not we currently have them out. Using that logic, we should be able to have two or three different egi out at the same time since they're draining me at the same rate anyway. So my point was that they introduced a plot hole by defining summoning in that way.
The fact that we originally we're going to get more egis but they changed their mind means that lore is just up to the whim of the developers and in the end it's just game design. I just think it's bad game design since it doesn't portray the image of a classic Summoner the way the other jobs portray their origins...

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I understood perfectly, and counter argued it in as simple terms as possible. There is no "classic summoner" portayal, as they have been different from one another so many times. Is Rydia the "classic"? Is the FF3 job class "classic"?, FFT? FFX? FF7? FF8? They're ALL fundamentally different in some way or another, with FF9 (Dagger/Garnet and Eiko) being the closest to a repeat of FF4's, in a way. What you might mean to say is it doesn't portray the FFXI summoner class, which is perfectly fine, that doesn't mean it's "bad" or any "less" of a summoner. FFXIV's Summoner actually reminds me of Yuna's summoning, just you know, not obnoxious. Giant summons that stay out permanently are great in a single-player game. It's ugly in an MMO when you'd have 20 of them out all together.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

I'm not sure you understood what I said...
Currently in the lore they've defined it so that egis constantly take a toll on our aether whether or not we currently have them out. Using that logic, we should be able to have two or three different egi out at the same time since they're draining me at the same rate anyway. So my point was that they introduced a plot hole by defining summoning in that way.
The fact that we originally we're going to get more egis but they changed their mind means that lore is just up to the whim of the developers and in the end it's just game design. I just think it's bad game design since it doesn't portray the image of a classic Summoner the way the other jobs portray their origins...

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Here we go again, the "you disagree with me so you must not understand" argument. You should have a look at the link in my sig.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

That actually makes a little bit of sense. Arcanists are known for using symbols and mathematical formulas for their magics, but somehow I doubt this will be able to be worked in the game mechanics

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Nah, would be no problem. And in addition to that we should have some kind of a mechanic where the summoner gets eaten by a demon if they do one incorrectly, like the Rabbit for NIN but more serious. :D

I never played the XI summoner, so I "sadly" cannot compare, but no 2 Final Fantasy games have ever had the summons the same, either in execution, style, or abilities. Most people seem to forget that things that work in a single player game usually don't work in a multiplayer game, like an MMO. Summoner in this game is fine, could a few things be improved yes, but is it a broken job, no. And is it a Summoner, YES!!!, it summons things, so please... SHUT UP.

Also, as an outsider who has never played XI, I have to say I only see two groups of people.

One group acknowledges that Summoner is not a broken job and has similar flaws to the other jobs, that a job such as this doesn't work as well in an MMO where other people are involved, if certain designs or mechanics are implimented: long summon sequence, big hulking monster, etc. They realize that there is no such thing as a "traditional" Summoner, since summons change from game to game.

The other group are the winers, who think XI's Summoner was the end all beat all, that no other MMO Summoner can top it. That XIV broke the Summoner job. Well I have a question for those who "love" that Summoner? What was your subjob? What were you doing when you weren't managing your pet? How many times did your big pet block your or someone elses view? Were the answers anything like: any Mage, since Summoner's benefit from the MP/magic boost, were you healing like a WHM or attacking like a BLM or standing around looking at your big summon, and wasn't that summon in you way once or twice? Think about it in every other Final Fantasy game any character who was a Summoner or you placed summons on, had other abilities, right? They had other skills to provide other uses, when SUMMONS WEREN'T NEEDED. You didn't have Yuna summon an Aeon everytime it was her turn, or Dagger and Eiko; and I'm sure most people use Rydia's BLM more than her summons since the spells were cheaper. And don't pretend anyone has ever used summons every time it was the summoners turn. We've all played RPGS, we all try to conserve our resources like MP when we can and use the bare minimum at times. Summons were/are just glorified trash killers. Why waste the MP on a summon that deals X amount of damage for YY MP when another spell does the same amount of damage for Y.

Okay closing my rant. People who like the XI Summoner, that is okay. I like XIV's Scholar, would I like it if I played XI, I dunno, will I like XI's if I ever get to play it, still dunno. But are they not a Scholar, yes, they are, just a different version. So please think about the series as a whole. There is no "traditional" Summoner, just different iterations, but please don't make it that SE broke the job, they didn't.

And also, technically Scholar is a Summoner in this game too, they just got the healing summons, should we bitch about them next?

Never played FFXI but i don't fancy Summoner's in this game either.

My take on is summoners shouldn't have egi's with them all times and instead summons should be tied to limit break (of summoners), but for that the limit break would need to change, they could be personal instead of group and you could choose which limit break to use (you "equip" it before battle). When the gauge is full you just call a summon, they do his glorified thingy and they're gone, in the meantime SMN's do their spells like a regular mage.

Limit breaks would change for everyone ofc, every class would get their specific limit break. Anyway would this work here? Probably not, a lot would need to change and i don't see it being done or even working in the game, but this is how i would have liked it to be in the 1st place.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I envy you. Endgame SMN with the people I played with was "Stand there and heal," or "Use Aerial Armor because this is before tanks knew how good /nin was," or more likely "Go change jobs."

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Who did you play with? That is odd. I was a SMN main in FFXI since release (2003) I got my WHM up to 60 fairly quickly and then did the lv65 avatar fights. In end game on my SMN I did sub WHM but never touched the spells, only sneak and invis to get to the camp. My LS leaders had me do damage...always. I was put in a PT with a brd and rdm and had my pet out all the time with my AF2 (I got the full set very quickly,w as lucky lol)

The only "healing" I did on SMN was in EXP PT. in end game it was always damage, damage, damage. I played with JP/NA mix and we did a lot of world firsts and fought all the hard stuff. Bringing a SMN to heal in end game was a very mediocre thing to do. WHM was far superior. I am not defending FFXI SMN, I do not want that in this game either, but that is just absurd. Sure, now and then I would throw a Cure if someone went in the red but that wasn't too often unless playing with bad players...

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

Most smn's I know completely micromanage their Egi's skills, very little is left to "the pet just doing it's thing", same with most sch's that I know

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The only micromanaging I do is put Garuda on obey...and Ifrit is left on auto. From what I am told I am always top damage dealer by our raid leader and we've gotten many clears. Lol Summoner has very little pet managing to do. The main focus is the upkeep of dots, trance and what not. Nothing to do with pets...which makes no sense, seeing how in 1.x the player poll wanted a PET CLASS the most. This is NOT a pet class, it is a dot class.

What I wouldn't mind having is Aion's spirit master. The pet's would evolve, were a pretty decent size, and the Spirit Master themselves had dots too..but the main and powerful attacks came from the pet. It was a good balance, at least when I played it was.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

snip

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Unfortunately, lore must always take a back seat to mechanics, otherwise there would be some horribly over powered classes. Such as summoner, could you imagine how weak an egi would be to allow all three or more summoned at once. Unless you want people to be able to one shot a boss without a party.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

The only "healing" I did on SMN was in EXP PT. in end game it was always damage, damage, damage. I played with JP/NA mix and we did a lot of world firsts and fought all the hard stuff. Bringing a SMN to heal in end game was a very mediocre thing to do..

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That's kind of the thing, though. You have a job that was used as a poor-man's healer for most of its life. The worst part was that no one expected SMN to do anything other than healbot until the lv70 Blood Pacts came in. Of course, that still leaves levels 1-69...

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The main focus is the upkeep of dots, trance and what not.

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If we're talking about SMN mechanics, I think the focus should really be on Dreadwyrm Trance. I remember people were celebrating when that was revealed and saying "omg i get to become bahamut" instead of asking "wait, where are the pet abilities I thought I was getting with the expansion?".

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Unfortunately, lore must always take a back seat to mechanics, otherwise there would be some horribly over powered classes. Such as summoner, could you imagine how weak an egi would be to allow all three or more summoned at once. Unless you want people to be able to one shot a boss without a party.

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Not necessarily. Temp summons would be one way to do it. Say, you summon Ravana-egi to auto attack the mob for 15 seconds, and upon hitting the 15 second mark it does an egi version of Chandrahas (that deals reasonable damage) and then vanishes. And there's nothing that prevents temp summons from being more fragile than egis.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That's kind of the thing, though. You have a job that was used as a poor-man's healer for most of its life. The worst part was that no one expected SMN to do anything other than healbot until the lv70 Blood Pacts came in. Of course, that still leaves levels 1-69...
If we're talking about SMN mechanics, I think the focus should really be on Dreadwyrm Trance. I remember people were celebrating when that was revealed and saying "omg i get to become bahamut" instead of asking "wait, where are the pet abilities I thought I was getting with the expansion?".

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Oh yeah, levels 1-69 was a healer with some semi decent buffs haha.

And yeah I remember that too...soo many threads lol. I do enjoy playing SMN right now, I doubt SE will change anything about it, the only thing I can hope for at this point is slightly better looking egi (like the ones in titan extreme or ramuh) ..

I have no issue with SMN being DoT DPS. I never played WoW, so even if SMN is a "Warlock clone", it still feels like a fresh and unique take on the SMN class for me.

As for FFXI's SMN... Certainly, while I played and enjoyed the SMN job is FFXI, I don't have a great deal of nostalgia for it. Because of how they were implemented in that game, SMN was little more than a half-assed WHM. Summons were too costly to keep out for any length of time, and they could only use abilities once per minute. Essentially, a level 75 SMN's role was that of a level 37 WHM with a crapton of MP. They only ever felt like a "classic" SMN at most once every two HOURS, when they could use Astral Flow - and even that was discouraged in general play due to the fact that it drained all of the SMN's MP. The situation did improve for SMNs eventually, but it took a long, long time.

So, I'm fine with FFXIV's take on SMN. I do have to say, though, I like the idea of SMN casting all or most of their spells by giving commands to the pet. The SMN doesn't cast Bio, Miasma, etc - the pet does, by command. It would give more of a feel that the SMN is commanding her thrall to fight for her, rather than doing most of the fighting herself with a pet providing support. For that to work, though, the pet would need to be a whole lot sturdier, maybe even indestructable, since a SMN would be pretty much helpless without it, rather than just inconvenienced as they are now.

For some reason, i get the feeling that the people saying smn was only useful for healing and stould there doing hardly anything were either playing with terrible summoners or tried the class and never made it to endgame.
Low level summoner on ffxi was no different than any other class other than... Thief. The reason summoners ended up healing was cause of the shortage of healers. I found alot of parties that let me dps with my pet and staff and did a fair amount of damage. Lets not forget staff weaponskills. The NA playerbase had this ideology that you needed a skillchain starter War/drk/etc and a thf or sub thf and then a blm. Funny thing is, even a good summoner could magic burst off the skillchains or participate in creating the skillchains, blm was not required. Smn was good dps. Alot of the healer summoners were the people who only had carbuncle at the start cause they didnt get the primals... till they introduced the lvl 20 avatar fights after the devs noticed the problem.

Endgame summoners had free mp cost diabolos and fenrir as well as 45 second bloodpacts with an ability that eliminated bloodpact recast.. camon. higher level unlocked staff skills were very strong. Sub was strictly redmage for refresh and convert. Elemental siphon for mp as well. We practically never had to heal for mp.

I realize this isnt ffxi but ffxivs summoner IS basically an arcanist still with no change. There was no shift to utilizing a pet with special powers and abilities. Theres no special bond or connection. Ffs sometimes i notice ffxiv summoners forget to even smn their pet, cant say i blame them since their really isnt any skills for interaction that are powerful or necessary? Even scholars pets skills are more useful to hotbar. The irony...

LOL @ people wanting a big cast big damage summon attacks, do you play BLM??? have you played BLM on lvl 60 stuff? have you had to move out of AoEs interrupting a fire-X? now think on how frustrating that would be with longer cast times.


I mained SMN on FFXI for years, loved the quest, the avatars, the challenge etc, but it was the most ignored job by devs, or better said, the job that scared the devs the most to give new toys. The upkeep MP you needed, the stats that didn't matter on you char as avatars did all the job, the role of healer up to lvl 70, and then later in end game stuff with the updates so avatars buffed the party you became a sad kid with a diabolos balloon that was only used to refresh the BLM party in dynamis (as using the buffs cut the avatars dps, so you needed a meticulus dance of throwing a bloodpact once in a while) but at least at that time yo used an avatar other than Garuda (poor titan, poor ifrit, etc)

Seriously FFXIV SMN people, just admit that you are ok with the job and your complain is that your avatar is minion size and not the model of the primal. If you had the models and with FFXI size you would... complain that you only have 3.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Endgame summoners had free mp cost diabolos and fenrir as well as 45 second bloodpacts with an ability that eliminated bloodpact recast.. camon. higher level unlocked staff skills were very strong. Sub was strictly redmage for refresh and convert. Elemental siphon for mp as well. We practically never had to heal for mp.

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These much-needed changes came VERY late in FFXI's timeline. The only avatar that came close to free for a long, long time was Carbuncle - and Poison Nails wasn't exactly what anyone would call l33t deeps.

No, until SE caved in to years and years of complaints, party SMNs were healers, and endgame SMNs were... well, not wanted, except for certain niche fights that called upon specific skills - usually Astral Flow, but occasionally also for long, drawn-out fights where the enmity cap was a serious enough issue that you had BLMs logging in and out to reset hate; Avatar attacks are VERY low enmity (or, rather, the enmity was all on the pet, not the SMN, and the pet taking hate and dying was a trivial concern), which made them an attractive option for fights like Kirin that could take an hour or longer to complete.

Yes, SMN eventually came into its own as a legitimate DPS class, and even had a few non-Carbuncle avatars that it could keep out perpetually. Heck, by the time of Adoulin, SE even reduced Avatar costs to the point where a SMN could keep ANY Avatar out. Even so, even at its finest, SMN was passable DPS, not great. A party leader given the choice would pick almost any DPS over a SMN, with the possible exception of PUP or THF (and PUP was actually pretty good DPS in the right hands; so few people could play it properly, though, that party leaders rarely gave them the chance to show it). Again, except for certain niche fights where SMN-specific talents were particularly desirable.

Well, at least until SE decided partway through Adoulin that all endgame NMs should have aoe attacks that murder any non-tank without Utsusemi (and sometimes, even then), making bow SAMs and RNGs the only DPS worth having. SMN were okay there, too (even if they were a distant third choice, after SAM and RNG). :P

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Unfortunately, lore must always take a back seat to mechanics, otherwise there would be some horribly over powered classes. Such as summoner, could you imagine how weak an egi would be to allow all three or more summoned at once. Unless you want people to be able to one shot a boss without a party.

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I totally agree. I just find it funny that in making this argument in the lore as for why we can't have more than 3 egis, they kinda made it questionable why we can't have more than one egi active at the same time.
And now we're getting the egis anyway albeit as glamour. I can't wait how they try to justify this in the lore as it contradicts their earlier statement... :P

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Who did you play with? That is odd. I was a SMN main in FFXI since release (2003) I got my WHM up to 60 fairly quickly and then did the lv65 avatar fights. In end game on my SMN I did sub WHM but never touched the spells, only sneak and invis to get to the camp. My LS leaders had me do damage...always. I was put in a PT with a brd and rdm and had my pet out all the time with my AF2 (I got the full set very quickly,w as lucky lol)

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A lot of people had zero idea what a SMN could do. Plain and simple. Either they didn't play the job and therefore "it must suck," or they played with bad SMNs who gave people the impression the job was garbage. A lot of jobs in FFXI suffered that fate (people don't know the job/play job poorly and it must be the job's fault).

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

I totally agree. I just find it funny that in making this argument in the lore as for why we can't have more than 3 egis, they kinda made it questionable why we can't have more than one egi active at the same time.
And now we're getting the egis anyway albeit as glamour. I can't wait how they try to justify this in the lore as it contradicts their earlier statement... :P

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Lore: The cause of and solution to all of XIV's problems XD

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

(and PUP was actually pretty good DPS in the right hands; so few people could play it properly, though, that party leaders rarely gave them the chance to show it)

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Thats funny i could say the same in regards to early summoners. No, the main reason summoners were healers is because there was always a healer shortage for party exp. It was so bad sometimes you found yourself using rdm and anything else that could toss side cures, which is what the na community ended up doing with summoner. Most only had carbuncle and were trying to get the class leveled anyway only healing setting a unwanted standard. Free mp cost would have been way unfair downtime wise against blm anyway. I never dissapointed parties as a dps when i was in a group even with mp cost. All it took was learning skill chain combos, having all your avatars, knowing how to magic burst if you were the burster, and using the wiki charts and graphs to find out blunt/piercing/slashing weaknesses of mobs and using the best pacts for it.
Free mp casts later on just made smn avatar favor more reliable. Dps was good even before it. I was using smn back when cap was 75 and sky was fresh. So i know what i know. Guess i agree to disagree.

FFXI's BLM was kinda like SMN , cast 1 spell once in a blue moon and rest ....casting 2 spells back to back was agro , and blm used to cast low tier spells in order to keep dpsing w/ agroing , only being able to free nuke on aoe spam (with other blm ) rotating AOE spam with Sleepga even

thats what made SMN shine , that could use 1k+ attacks w/o agroing at all :P

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

if only the summoner........COMMANDED the pet to do all the work , instead of the summoner casting spells....kinda like enkindle but with 75% of the spells... u know summoner summon things to do the work for him/her....u are there to help, no the other way around , u can heal it , buff it to do more dmg ...the summon should do 80% of the dmg and smn 20%...

if SE implements BST i hope is has more synergy with the beast .....

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Too much delay in this game. It would take twice as long for spells to hit. Nice idea on paper but the reality would be terrible for dps.

I like how every time there's a cry for a 'traditional Summoner' it tends to refer to the XI version... which is merely iteration of the FFX SMN, which in turn is another iteration of the Job from previous FFs. In other words, there's hardly been a 'traditional' SMN since the Job in question has always been something different throughout the FF series. Only common link they've all had is they summon things. Well in XIV, they summon 'shades' of a Primal's power (Egi), so the definition still fits. You don't have to like the iteration of SMN here, but let's not act as if SE's somehow done a complete disservice to a Job that's hardly had a consistent, defining identity in the first place, compared to actual traditional Jobs like BLM, WHM, DRG, etc.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

I like how every time there's a cry for a 'traditional Summoner' it tends to refer to the XI version... which is merely iteration of the FFX SMN, which in turn is another iteration of the Job from previous FFs. In other words, there's hardly been a 'traditional' SMN since the Job in question has always been something different throughout the FF series. Only common link they've all had is they summon things. Well in XIV, they summon 'shades' of a Primal's power (Egi), so the definition still fits. You don't have to like the iteration of SMN here, but let's not act as if SE's somehow done a complete disservice to a Job that's hardly had a consistent, defining identity in the first place, compared to actual traditional Jobs like BLM, WHM, DRG, etc.

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You know what's also common with all those other FF titles except FFXIV? Summons were always massive, threatening entities, that you call once in a while to destroy your enemies. Not pokemon versions of them that you have constantly by your side in battle.

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Originally Posted by Mael-bess

You know what's also common with all those other FF titles except FFXIV? Summons were always massive, threatening entities, that you call once in a while to destroy your enemies. Not pokemon versions of them that you have constantly by your side in battle.

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Doesn't matter how you slice it, XIV's SMN still fulfills the criteria off the fact that, like the others before it, they summon things. Whether it's screen-filling size avatars or otherwise is irrelevant. Your dislike of the XIV SMN doesn't mean it's not a SMN.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Doesn't matter how you slice it, XIV's SMN still fulfills the criteria off the fact that, like the others before it, they summon things. Whether it's screen-filling size avatars or otherwise is irrelevant. Your dislike of the XIV SMN doesn't mean it's not a SMN.

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Loads of games have classes that summon things (WoW Warlock, GW necromancer, ect), that doesn't makes them summoners (FF summoners). The fact they are this way in FFXIV is mostly to not get in the way of gameplay, like many folks have stated, such as summons too big will clutter your screen.
But you are right, this is my opinion, i don't like how they are here while having previous FF's in mind, SE has every right to call them summoners, i just don't agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

I totally agree. I just find it funny that in making this argument in the lore as for why we can't have more than 3 egis, they kinda made it questionable why we can't have more than one egi active at the same time.
And now we're getting the egis anyway albeit as glamour. I can't wait how they try to justify this in the lore as it contradicts their earlier statement... :P

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Wait. My understanding of the lore is our inability to summon Ramuh had nothing to do with how many Egis we had but rather the primal Ramuh. Primals have different levels of power and it seems different levels of potential power. Having unsummoned Egis doesn't drain you of power. The issue is summoning them in the first place. We couldn't summon a Ramuh Egi because summoning a Ramuh Egi required more Aether than we had. Same reason we wouldn't be able to summon a Bahamut Egi. The WoL simply lacks the Aetheric reserves to summon an Egi of a Primal that powerful. That also means that Ramuh is more powerful than Titan, Ifrit and Garuda but I can believe that.

As for explaining us being able to summon stronger Egis, it would be easy to explain, particularly since research into Allag Summoners was far from over. Potentially their may be a way to perform a more efficient summoning ritual, it might require some form of special equipment such as supercharging our soulstone or it could simply be that we have grown stronger. Don't forget there is precedence in lore where the Ascian fused several of Tristan's soulstones together to allow him to summon Belias Egi.

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Originally Posted by Mael-bess

You know what's also common with all those other FF titles except FFXIV? Summons were always massive, threatening entities, that you call once in a while to destroy your enemies. Not pokemon versions of them that you have constantly by your side in battle.

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I can see why they wouldn't go with such a model in this game though. It would be too restrictive to the class as effectively its just a Job that revolves entirely around big burst CDs. Balancing those and making them effectively impressive would be difficult in FF14's combat system. They would have to be a DPS class and to accommodate making those Summons impressively destructive enough the Summoner would be quite weak without them. This would in particular be an issue in fights where mechanically timing the Summon CDs was difficult and if fights where big burst was needed Summoners might be viewed as mandatory. Further they would be a nightmare to balance between PvE and PvP.

Its the same reason that if we ever get Blue Mage, its not going to be the old style blue mage. What worked in FF11's combat system wont necessarily work in FF14.