Concerning the PIE buff on SCH/AST, please do not remove it.

I think many of us BLMs do need that piety buff to get over certain MP thresholds, such as an additional Fire cast or continuous cast after Blizzard 3.

Completely agree.
DO NOT REMOVE PIE BUFF.
If anything just add Pie and Mnd to all healers.

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

I always found it silly that SCH + AST lacks for MND buff but taking PIE away from AST + WHM isn't the solution.

If they did they'd rework it so it's not a loss.

Why are you relying on a AST/SCH to give you Piety when you can meld it yourself? Let alone the fact that you virtually have an infinite MP pool.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

I think many of us BLMs do need that piety buff to get over certain MP thresholds, such as an additional Fire cast or continuous cast after Blizzard 3.

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Why not add PIE with your attributes or materia, if they changed it?

As someone who runs AST/SCH without a BLM in my static, I would welcome this change

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

I always found it silly that SCH + AST lacks for MND buff but taking PIE away from AST + WHM isn't the solution.

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Personally, I'd like to see it so that you can choose which bonus you will bring a party. A BLM, theoretically, could bring a PIE bonus instead of INT if they chose. - Or a WAR could bring STR instead of VIT (say you had PLD/WAR/NIN/BRD/SMN/BLM, no str buff currently) etc.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

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It's way too simple and reasonable for this game.

You know what would fix everything?

Diurnal sect=MND Bonus
Noct sect=PIE bonus

This may be hard to code however, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You know what would fix everything?

Diurnal sect=MND Bonus
Noct sect=PIE bonus

This may be hard to code however, I dunno.

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That's not a good solution, it would mean you would take double AST anyways, because cards and both party bonuses. There's no reason to take a SCH or WHM for that because you've got cards on your side as well as the buffs each sect rewards, both as a self-buff and a party buff.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

That's not a good solution, it would mean you would take double AST anyways, because cards and both party bonuses. There's no reason to take a SCH or WHM for that because you've got cards on your side as well as the buffs each sect rewards, both as a self-buff and a party buff.

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I can't tell if this is a joke post or not. If that's true then why aren't people doing it already since lots of groups run SCH/AST with no mind buff?

Two ASTs is probably the worst composition a raid group could possibly have with low DPS and cards not stacking as well as very few healing cooldowns. Scholar is OP and basically mandatory in every raid group at the moment, card buffs don't even make up for the DPS you're losing from scholar dots+consistent selene buff, so what you speak of would never happen.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I can't tell if this is a joke post or not.

Two ASTs is probably the worst composition a raid group could possibly have with low DPS and cards not stacking as well as very few healing cooldowns. Scholar is OP and basically mandatory in every raid group at the moment, card buffs don't even make up for the DPS you're losing from scholar dots+consistent selene buff, so what you speak of would never happen.

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haha yeah I was wondering the same

I'd say SCH/WHM > SCH/AST > WHM/AST > WHM/WHM > AST/AST > SCH/SCH

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

I always found it silly that SCH + AST lacks for MND buff but taking PIE away from AST + WHM isn't the solution.

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Agreed. I've seen (and have also made based on that original change request) the same suggestion in different threads in the past.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Why are you relying on a AST/SCH to give you Piety when you can meld it yourself? Let alone the fact that you virtually have an infinite MP pool.

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I'm not sure what the optimal BLM rotation / stats are in 3.0, but I know in 2.0 you wanted a certain level of PIE to get an extra Fire into your Astral phase before you go into Umbral, giving you higher up time in Astral (and thus more DPS). I imagine the rationale may be similar here.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You know what would fix everything?

Diurnal sect=MND Bonus
Noct sect=PIE bonus

This may be hard to code however, I dunno.

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If I would take a shot in the dark about coding, I would guess your party bonus is tied directly to your Class or Job and would probably be very hard to code it to something else. They seem to mention "Core functions" a few times in this particular live letter and the difficulty of modifying those core components. I wouldn't be surprised if the party bonus is considered one of these core functions. While changing the bonus is probably no issue changing how the bonus is determined is most likely a whole other ball game.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

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It's not a joke post, I'm 100% serious, the only reason AST+AST isn't viable at the moment is there's no reason to do it because PIE bonus only as well as cards not stacking. I honestly believe that people would jump to AST/AST once 2 ASTs can reward both party buffs, because then you can have MND+PIE buffs, and double the amount of Balance/Arrow/whatever cards.

Even if groups are running SCH/AST, it would be the last nail on the coffin for White Mage specifically, you would never have White Mage in the "main heal" spot anymore, it would run AST for MND buff + cards, then SCH for it's DPS. There is a balance issue at this point. What Eidolon mentioned is possibly the best setup you can get while also keeping balance. It would mean you can have the option to run AST/SCH, but it wouldn't be the only setup, especially in something like DF where you have a high chance of getting the same healer.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Why are you relying on a AST/SCH to give you Piety when you can meld it yourself? Let alone the fact that you virtually have an infinite MP pool.

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While I agree with the melding, I must point out there there are higher priorities for that (In fact, I would be surprised if anyone but a Tank melded cyan materia to anything)

With that said, That "infinite" MP pool has a cap an no amount of Umbral ice will get past that, this means that BLM has a limit to Fire IV chains (5-6 is needed for the opener, and you need either that very buff or the body of a popoto with no pupils [Like me :P] to even reach 6). Additionally the extra PIE would help ensure the MP pool is fille faster by giving you enough MP for a Blizzard III cast, instead of using Transpose an waiting for 9 seconds to get it back

the short version is that losing the PIE buff would mean a potential DPS loss. Of course the buff is so minor that the effect of replacing a Savage Aim with a Piety might not be that noticeable.

Now the question is, why don't they just code it so that SCH+AST gives MIN an WHM+AST gives PIE (INB4 PS3 Limitations)

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Originally Posted by ErryK

It's not a joke post, I'm 100% serious, the only reason AST+AST isn't viable at the moment is there's no reason to do it because PIE bonus only as well as cards not stacking. I honestly believe that people would jump to AST/AST once 2 ASTs can reward both party buffs, because then you can have MND+PIE buffs, and double the amount of Balance/Arrow/whatever cards.

Even if groups are running SCH/AST, it would be the last nail on the coffin for White Mage specifically, you would never have White Mage in the "main heal" spot anymore, it would run AST for MND buff + cards, then SCH for it's DPS. There is a balance issue at this point. What Eidolon mentioned is possibly the best setup you can get while also keeping balance. It would mean you can have the option to run AST/SCH, but it wouldn't be the only setup, especially in something like DF where you have a high chance of getting the same healer.

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No, the reason AST/AST isn't viable is because nocturnal stance blows.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

I think many of us BLMs do need that piety buff to get over certain MP thresholds, such as an additional Fire cast or continuous cast after Blizzard 3.

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Just go Dunesfolk Lala.

JOOOOOIIIIIINNNN UUUUUUSSSSSSS

I'll reiterate here because it needs to be taken care of once and for all and we're being asked for feedback.

SCH and AST are currently the only jobs in the game that don't bring their main stat as a party bonus, and this feels like an oversight more than the devs' intent.

PIE is considered a main stat by the game buy really is a secondary now if you look at the way gear is done. They even got rid of PIE accessories with 3.0.

SCH and AST both need to provide a MND party bonus for balance's sake. If and when they introduce new MND-based healing jobs, they'll need to
provide a MND bonus as well.

Therefore, and to preserve current balance (especially with BLM) while future-proofing the game, the best way to do it would be first healer unlocks a MND bonus, second healer unlocks a PIE bonus.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

Just go Dunesfolk Lala.

JOOOOOIIIIIINNNN UUUUUUSSSSSSS

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Yes because putting up racial barriers to success in content in a game where one of the draws is to freely play other classes is totally the devs plan, just like in XI where all the good mages were Tarutaru and all the good tanks are Galka. Heavens forbid that a Lala Tank or Roe Caster can ever be competent in raids:rolleyes:

I love how I made comment to the PIE/MND issue in the Live Letter after AST came out. .-. When AST was very new the lack of MND bonus actually had them shunned from Bismark/Ravana parties waaay back in the day. It has definitely balanced out now, mind you, but this issue isn't exactly new and I'm surprised it took so long to address.

The best solutions have already been said, but I'ma repost them anyway.
1) One healer = MND bonus. 2 healer = MND and PIE bonus.
2) One healer (applied to all healing jobs) = MND and PIE bonus (this would also impact dungeons, which may or may not be a good thing. But does need to be considered).

You know, I wonder if the bonus can be reworkedso that it would give PIE if a BLM+2 Healers is in the party, but MND if the BLM is exclued?

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I'll reiterate here because it needs to be taken care of once and for all and we're being asked for feedback.

SCH and AST are currently the only jobs in the game that don't bring their main stat as a party bonus, and this feels like an oversight more than the devs' intent.

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I find it funny that SCH is PIE as well - as currently, SCH needs more MP less than like any other DoM.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

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If AST/AST wasn't terrible then people would be running it. Buffs make no difference as Sch/AST is a very respectable and accepted comp without a mind bonus.

No one is doing double AST, and no one smart ever will regardless of changes. Especially now that having the same class makes you get less limit break gauge. Not to mention, as I stated, you can have a scholar and have a consistent(<---important word here) buff with selene every minute. A buff that does stack with cards no less.

Also...if white mage had any problems, then why do the majority of high end raiders see white mage and scholar as the best comp? The mind buff can't be even close to the only reason.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

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You sir, get all my likes.

Considering PIE isn't just a secondary stat, it's a bad secondary stat outside of very limited use in meeting threshholds, it wouldn't be gamebreaking to make all healers give both bonuses.

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I think many of us BLMs do need that piety buff to get over certain MP thresholds, such as an additional Fire cast or continuous cast after Blizzard 3.

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1) I think healers should have more of a say of what their healer buff should be rather than the DPS

2) if you "need" some level of piety to optimize your rotation, you should try to get it through your gear rather than have to rely on a certain job being in your party to get it. If all else fails, you'll probably be able to put some piety on your anima weapon come 3.25~

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

1) I think healers should have more of a say of what their healer buff should be rather than the DPS

2) if you "need" some level of piety to optimize your rotation, you should try to get it through your gear rather than have to rely on a certain job being in your party to get it. If all else fails, you'll probably be able to put some piety on your anima weapon come 3.25~

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Having to go out of your way/give up better alternatives VS getting it for free. Of course people will prefer the latter. :P

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Having to go out of your way/give up better alternatives VS getting it for free. Of course people will prefer the latter. :P

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Doesn't really defeat either of my points, though.

Unless you are a SCH or AST yourself, or never ever queue with random people, you cannot control when you get the PIE buff... meaning that if you really really cared enough about your BLM DPS and having *just* enough MP to squeeze in that extra Fire 1, you would make the effort to ensure that you get it no matter what your party composition happens to be. Otherwise... it says to me you don't actually care enough about your BLM DPS to go that extra mile, and I don't understand why someone with that attitude would make a thread like this.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Is there any reason they can't set it up so that

Having one healer = MND bonus
having two healers = MND + PIE bonus

I always found it silly that SCH + AST lacks for MND buff but taking PIE away from AST + WHM isn't the solution.

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perfect solution

Sorry but as a healer, a BLM is not my concern. You can meld piety into gear or use bonus attribute points to get piety.

As a raid healer and healer main, MND party bonus >>>>>>>>>>> PIE party bonus when on SCH or AST.

I'd say your healers and/or group has bigger problems, if you require the MND buff. In fact, you most likely won't even notice it missing unless you're staring at the numbers.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Why are you relying on a AST/SCH to give you Piety when you can meld it yourself? Let alone the fact that you virtually have an infinite MP pool.

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It's not about the mana pool being infinite, but about the max mana you can have. This has been the case since the launch of ARR, and some people did actually put a point or two into PIE so they could cast Thunder 2, I think it was, without having to wait for mana ticks. Right now, you can't even do one of the openers without PIE buff unless you're a dune lala. There is also the one idea right now to meld 2x PIE 5 onto your gear to always have mana for Thunder, if you happen to get unfavourable mana ticks, but that also requires you to have the PIE buff from party.

It's pretty ironic that this is more of a concern to black mage than it is to healers. I'd say remove piety party bonus, add 7 piety to blm job. Only need so much mp as a healer but could always use more mind.

Don't forget that certain foods also give PIE. AST healing potency shouldn't have to suffer because BLMs want to get in extra DPS.

just add mind and piety to all healers

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

just add mind and piety to all healers

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Said this last page, but yeah, that's the perfect solution. Simple, effective, yet not gamebreaking...nobody loses out.

If we're forced to pick using the current conventions, I'd prefer mind bonus on AST and WHM, with piety on SCH.
If we can rework it, Mind on WHM, Piety on SCH, and Mind on AST unless they use Nocturnal Sect, which then just give us Piety.

Why don't they just do it thusly:

Light Party (4 man) - What you currently bring. Or VIT, PIE, INT, MND - I have no idea how important STR & DEX are now so the former may be better.

Full Party (8 man) - All Base stats, even in a team of 8 WAR.

It seems stupid to miss out a stat because of errors in design, like SCH & AST.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Why don't they just do it thusly:

Light Party (4 man) - What you currently bring. Or VIT, PIE, INT, MND - I have no idea how important STR & DEX are now so the former may be better.

Full Party (8 man) - All Base stats, even in a team of 8 WAR.

It seems stupid to miss out a stat because of errors in design, like SCH & AST.

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Tanks still lose out when there's no MNK or DRG present, just not as much as they previously did. Now they're basically guaranteed half their damage stat and rely on those 2 for the other half.

...and still all these suggestions are more complicated and sloppy than just giving all the healers both MND and PIE.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Having to go out of your way/give up better alternatives VS getting it for free. Of course people will prefer the latter. :P

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Indeed. But... if us healers have to meld accuracy in order to be able to optimize our job (since especially SCH are expected to dps some), then it's only fair that BLM have to meld Piety to optimize their rotation ^_~

in my opinion the three healers should provide the mind buff to the party. however to further promote using different types of healers the piety buff should apply when you have different healers in preformed parties, but in duty finder both mind and piety should be granted as a bonus regardless of composition

Another solution I was talking over with one of my friends, and I'm not 100% sure how viable or broken this would be, but... Why not just add the remaining PIE bonus you would normally get from the party buff to all classes/jobs as standard PIE. This way you can easily hand out the MND party buff to all 3 healers, and boom... No one loses their PIE and all 3 healers can and will give MND as the actual party bonus buff.

Again I'm not 100% sure if that would be too "broken", but I find it a possible viable solution other than the solution(s) that have already been stated. Regardless if nothing else, please at least give us AST the MND buff. It does help, even in the smallest ways, and all help in my personal opinion is always a great welcome!