AST and Party Bonus Live Letter feedback.

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Q: Full parties that feature a scholar and astrologian don’t have a MND party bonus so there are times where there’s added difficulty in healing. Do you have plans to change the party bonus for scholar or astrologian?

A: It’s not difficult to change this; however, by changing this, we worry that some may think of this as a nerf. Our view on this is that we should make the party bonus effective no matter what kind of healer combination is used, but we would like to hear from the players to see if it would be alright to remove PIE bonus, so please let us know on the forums. We would like to consider changing this.

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For AST we don't mind having the PIE bonus when in Noct, we already have a healing bonus in that stance and we won't be using Noct with a SCH anyway.

It is when we are Diurnal do we want a MIND bonus...just to clarify!

++ :D

MND for Diurnal please, or just make all healers grant MND/PIE I guess, so long as their is 2 in the party.

This is not my suggestion initially but i like the idea a lot and will repost it here.

Allow the first healer (regardless of job) to give a MND bonus.
Allow the second healer (regardless of job) to give a PIE bonus.

This way you'll always have a mind bonus in the group regardless of comp in any content and you'll get the additional bonus of PIE in any comp for all 8-mans.

This will also help get around weird healing comps you may get in DF / DR as well.

Maybe much harder to program in but would personally love to see this implemented.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

For AST we don't mind having the PIE bonus when in Noct, we already have a healing bonus in that stance and we won't be using Noct with a SCH anyway.

It is when we are Diurnal do we want a MIND bonus...just to clarify!

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But, if it's impossible to implement things this way, would you prefer they swap to MND for both stances? I certainly would. IIRC ACN brings PIE, so even without a SCH we'd still get that bonus by having a SMN in the party.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

But, if it's impossible to implement things this way, would you prefer they swap to MND for both stances? I certainly would. IIRC ACN brings PIE, so even without a SCH we'd still get that bonus by having a SMN in the party.

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Nope, SMN brings INT

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Originally Posted by Jacost

But, if it's impossible to implement things this way, would you prefer they swap to MND for both stances? I certainly would. IIRC ACN brings PIE, so even without a SCH we'd still get that bonus by having a SMN in the party.

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SMN gives INT
ACN and SCH give PIE

If it was the case that it was impossible to make the sects have individual party bonuses, then I'd want all 3 Healers to have MND bonus, and the PIE bonus to just be added when in a full 8 man party or something.

This has been a recurring conversation for as long as Heavensward has been out and the best balanced solution would indeed be to give MND bonus for one healer and PIE bonus for 2 healers, regardless of party composition. It's simple and elegant.

They don't even need to get rid of PIE this way, no harm done to BLMs, best of both worlds, future-proof etc.

Unless career WHMs see the removal of an exclusive MND bonus as a nerf that would threaten their party slot (?) I see no reason to not update this.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

This has been a recurring conversation for as long as Heavensward has been out and the best balanced solution would indeed be to give MND bonus for one healer and PIE bonus for 2 healers, regardless of party composition. It's simple and elegant.

They don't even need to get rid of PIE this way, no harm done to BLMs, best of both worlds, future-proof etc.

Unless career WHMs see the removal of an exclusive MND bonus as a nerf that would threaten their party slot (?) I see no reason to not update this.

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I agree. I see a change to give the bonus based on the number of a healers a way to future-proof the game from a balancing stand point.

A change like this would be no different from when they homogenized WHM protect. There will be some grumbling initially but most players will realize it's better to do this to prevent imbalance down the line.

MND bonus please. Not much more to elaborate on.

Other than the idea of first healer giving MND, the second PIE is good.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

A change like this would be no different from when they homogenized WHM protect. There will be some grumbling initially but most players will realize it's better to do this to prevent imbalance down the line.

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Well, it's not like they haven't done something similar in the past. Remember when Summoners used to provide piety and their party benefit was changed to int? This was generally accepted by their caster spot competitors. I predict there'll be an overabundance of salt if SE does decide to change it.

Well, it would be best to have both the mnd and pie bonus with two and healers and should SE feel that Whm are falling behind or something based on their data collection, they can make whatever adjustments they need to in the upcoming patch/update just to keep everything line so would be best to just do both with two healers.

I think its fine to dump the selective MND/PIE bonus at this point. One healer is MND, second will bring PIE. Let raid parties sort out whom they want as the healer combo instead of the being pigeon holed.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, it's not like they haven't done something similar in the past. Remember when Summoners used to provide piety and their party benefit was changed to int? This was generally accepted by their caster spot competitors. I predict there'll be an overabundance of salt if SE does decide to change it.

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To be honest I'm not actually familiar with this change (and the resultant discussion). I imagine it happened early in the AAR life cycle? I ask because at that time I was more engrossed in AAR going "oooooo" and "aaaaaah" like a fresh bud and focusing on WHM more than ACN/SCH at this time.

Could you enlighten me? Consider myself curious about this, though I imagine it is exactly as you described it - ACN / SMN was originally giving PIE. S-E changed it. Much outcry, etc.

Before I go on my rambling, I really like the idea of AST being able to switch MND and PIE based on stance.
(/*o*)/

The biggest thing I want to say I do not want PIE taken from SCH. I feel like people underestimate the power and benefit of PIE too often. Many jobs benefit for the PIE boost (All tanks, all the ranged, and all the healers) which makes it a more substantial contribution to the whole group than mind alone.

Most people don't care about these boosts minus end game raiders that like to min/max gear and push their stats and rotations to their absolutes. That being said, I see very few WHM/AST raid groups (not that they don't exist, but I just don't see the combo as often) and AST/SCH being a more popular combo causes stat redundancy in a party. AST has such a strong ability to be a main healer, it should bring the MND buff to the table.

What ever the changes may be, my biggest plea is that PIE not be removed as a bonus stat completely.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

To be honest I'm not actually familiar with this change (and the resultant discussion). I imagine it happened early in the AAR life cycle? I ask because at that time I was more engrossed in AAR going "oooooo" and "aaaaaah" like a fresh bud and focusing on WHM more than ACN/SCH at this time.

Could you enlighten me? Consider myself curious about this, though I imagine it is exactly as you described it - ACN / SMN was originally giving PIE. S-E changed it. Much outcry, etc.

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I actually have to retract that statement as I can't find any information regarded to it. If this was actually a thing, it dated back before or around world first titan hard mode clear.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I actually have to retract that statement as I can't find any information regarded to it. If this was actually a thing, it dated back before or around world first titan hard mode clear.

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Hmmm, alright. My initial thought was maybe it was a Beta thing since I wasn't part of the XIV Beta.

Still, I can see how there would be outrage for a change like that. There's always going to some unsatisfied (and generally loud) section of players that dislike a change when it actually occurs.

There really wasn't an outrage. Some people whined, as is always the case when changes are made, but most people were relieved that SMN could finally provide its own stat bonus. It just felt like a logical change to people with active brain cells (especially because people were starting to catch up to the fact that everyone would eventually use a SCH in a full party setup anyway).

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

There really wasn't an outrage. Some people whined, as is always the case when changes are made, but most people were relieved that SMN could finally provide its own stat bonus. It just felt like a logical change to people with active brain cells (especially because people were starting to catch up to the fact that everyone would eventually use a SCH in a full party setup anyway).

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I can believe that. Outrage was the wrong word to use. Complaints is probably the better choice in this case.

Still, you are correct. Change happens for good reason, someone feels they had their toes stepped on and then openly decides to complain about it despite the logical-ness of the decision.

The only thing I felt was overstretched is the "added difficulty in healing" comment when not bringing a WHM for MND bonus. It's not a game breaker, gear obviously helps but it really didn't prevent progression in Gordias or Midas Savage.

In b4 whms realize this is proshell all over again (after the fact.) As an SCH I'd love to get that sweet sweet mind bonus followed by piety if a second healer is present.

I'd also like to see Astrologians get a MIND party buff over the PIETY one..
The idea of being able to have different party buffs depending on active Sects is pretty cool though I don't think they'd implement that.

Genuine question then, if having any healer gets the MND bonus, what even is the point of the bonus system? You would always have the MND bonus, unless you had a party with no healers at all, in which case who is even benefitting from the MND bonus anyway? WAR self-heal?

The whole system feels overly complicated, and not so much a bonus at all, just a detriment on the rare occasion you are missing one of them.

I mean would it be so game-breaking if they just gave you them all when in an 8-party composition?

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Genuine question then, if having any healer gets the MND bonus, what even is the point of the bonus system? You would always have the MND bonus, unless you had a party with no healers at all, in which case who is even benefitting from the MND bonus anyway? WAR self-heal?

The whole system feels overly complicated, and not so much a bonus at all, just a detriment on the rare occasion you are missing one of them.

I mean would it be so game-breaking if they just gave you them all when in an 8-party composition?

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Eventually they'll probably end up either making the party bonus a "permanent bonus" when in a party or just do with it out right. As they release more and more jobs, there will be more and more combinations of jobs in any 8 man party. While their efficiency will vary, I imagine S-E doesn't want "party bonus" to be one of those deciding factors (similar to how they adjust Proshell to be available for cross class).

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

The whole system feels overly complicated, and not so much a bonus at all, just a detriment on the rare occasion you are missing one of them.

I mean would it be so game-breaking if they just gave you them all when in an 8-party composition?

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The answer is, it's a system that is doomed to be pointless in the long run, unless they make it a permanent bonus of sorts, or remove it outright, as Ghislain suggests.

It was introduced in 1.x to encourage taking multiple jobs because class stacking was a thing (Garuda BLM burn parties come to mind), and the jobs' output was affected by multiple stats (MNK was STR and INT, BRD was DEX and PIE, VIT used to affect Regen and Stoneskin's potency, etc.). It's obviously not relevant anymore as jobs are affected by a single stat that they bring as a party bonus anyway, unless you're a SCH or AST.

Yeah by the way the war self heal is similar to any DPS self heal.
Based on their attack power because they are not healing spell

The PAL clemency would be affect by the mind bonus...
But not sure.

In my opinion
They should either remove bonus as suggested
Or... Give piety its rightful place : SECONDARY STAT
(So full mnd for healers)

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

The PAL clemency would be affect by the mind bonus...
But not sure.

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It's not. It's scaled off attack power, I think. As this value remains unchanged regardless of oath and fight or flight and your clemency values do not change either regardless of fight or flight or oaths

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

It's not. It's scaled off attack power, I think. As this value remains unchanged regardless of oath and fight or flight and your clemency values do not change either regardless of fight or flight or oaths

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Clemency does indeed scale off Attack Power.

That being said, Nekotee does have the right idea too.

Off the top of the head, these are party bonus that one job provides that other jobs benefit from:

• STR bonus from MNK/DRG helping Tank jobs with their enmity generation (+damage) and their heals / self-heals
• PIE bonus from AST/SCH helping BLMs with their rotation (slight bonus to BRD / MCH / SMN and their MP consumption)
• MND bonus from WHM helping AST/SCH with their healing and DPS
• (Minor) I believe one of the stats increases block / parry rate. Yes, yes, block / parry, but still a very minor consideration to have.

Currently, it's a small list, but given the amount of BLMs that have provided input into this MND/PIE discussion, I can see the list getting bigger and player's getting louder pending what new jobs are released and how their kits interface with the meta (IE, if DEX DPS becomes the meta next expansion, Tanks will speak out about wanting STR party bonus).

I should add that VIT benefit everyone to suuuuurvive !
And hell when you see the amount of damage everyone take in Alexander... Each vit point count !

Pray the twelve that tank will never have str bonus
I currently have nightmare when I have to babysit a half str tank in DF...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

(Minor) I believe one of the stats increases block / parry rate. Yes, yes, block / parry, but still a very minor consideration to have.

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They changed this with the 3.0 patch. Prior to the expansion, str increased block/parry strength and dex increased block/parry rate - With extremely minor gains as well. Now neither do anything in regards of blocking or parrying

Party bonus is still rather relevant. Rotations all the way down to theory crafting had been done to optimize based on party bonuses such as BLM/PIE (it's even a thing to meld PIE onto BLM gear). More importantly when you are Alex savage raiding in under-geared progression you want every passive stat increase you can get. You don't see any world progression groups, let alone regular raid groups without nearly the perfect party setup. Granted, World Midas #3 had AST/SCH. That is more to say you don't MND bonus to clear, but lets not discount how much STR matters for DPS progression for tanks too. Among other things.

The simplest way to resolve and satisfy all is the first healer is always MND, second healer that isn't the same job as the first will add PIE. That would always discourage same job party setup, which is sort of the point of the party bonus by bringing synchronized/right jobs to the table.

Please change the Astro party buff to Mind at the very least, though to be honest the party buff system is just a hindrance anyway.

UP! Please fix this, many raid composition this days are AST + SCH and not having MND bonus is an unfair disadvantage ...

Yes, please make this change! In fact to avoid issues in the future with more jobs, just add a general party bonus rather than restricting stats to jobs please. :'D

In my case I don't mind
I do prefer piety over mind

But yeah it's a dps loss to not have this mind :S

It's especially bad since you're getting less Piety than Mind. Perhaps they could make it so that the Party bonus is a flat buff and is not limited to one bonus per class (so Ast/Sch would have two Piety buffs).

Just give us MND bonus if we have a healer and piety bonus for having a full party sorted :P

The best is still to do what should have been done
Put piety in his rightful place

Secondary stat

Since it is how it is treatd on stuff