Hi! So I decided to take up a tank job just so I can be a more well rounded player. I have multiple DPS jobs and all Healer roles at 60 but I never wanted to try Tanking just because it was so intimidating.
Well I decided to pick up gladiator and see how it goes! (Also , those short que times are quite attractive)
Firstly , I've been trying to see if there were any Paladin guides so I can better understand my rotation and the Do's and Don'ts of tanking as a paladin.
I had a lot of trouble dealing with multiple trash on mobs , often times having one of the monsters lose hate on me and attack one of my other team mates. Also, managing my MP when I'm constantly using flash to get back hate when the DPS are going too ham.
The other day I ran Hatali (NM) with TWO THMs D: lemme tell ya, they gave me a run for my money as I kept fighting to keep hate. Any tips on how to handle tanking with DPS that are known for ripping hate so easily ?
Also , finally. Are macros super important for a tank ?? I play on PS4 and have no clue how to use macros so I'm wondering if it's something I should try to learn how to use??
Thank you in advance for any tips and help!! :DDDD
New tank looking for some tips to be a better tank!!
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03-24-2016, 12:04 AMTristanBlaneNew tank looking for some tips to be a better tank!!
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03-24-2016, 12:14 AMChameleonMS
Until you reach lv40 and get Shield Oath, maintaining hate is challenge for GLA/PLD.
Shield Lob and Flash to start.
Then begin FB > SB > RoH rotation. Change targets on a regular basis for SB and RoH, to keep the hate on you. Intermixing a flash after every second rotation will also help you.
Your hate is direct calculation of your damage, keep your gear up to date to keep up the damage.
Once you have Shield Oath, your life will get way easier. -
03-24-2016, 12:46 AMJpec07Hi there! Welcome to the club! We have cupcakes. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
I'm not aware of any guides that are being maintained at the moment, but PLD is pretty straightforward. I'm going to go ahead and assume you've only ever played a caster class while I do my 'splainin, so I apologize if you know any of this already!Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
Melee jobs have combos, if you weren't aware of that. If you look at the tooltips, you'll see "Combo Action", which shows you which abilities ought to follow one another. Generally, until you're more comfortable tanking and keeping enmity, your Rage of Halone (RoH) combo is going to be your best friend, because it generates a tonne of enmity.
As you level, you'll want to try to always keep at least one cooldown in use as often as possible. In terms of effectiveness at mitigating damage, the priority goes: Hallowed Ground (HG) > Sentinel > Bulwark + Awareness (always use together once you have them) > Rampart > Foresight > Fight or Flight + Bloodbath (there is no compelling reason to not use these together) > Foresight. Generally, in earlier dungeons, you should be okay to save your bigger cooldowns for instances where the boss will do more damage, but you'll want to be sure to use them more on trash than on bosses (as I'm sure you're aware as a healer, tanks usually take more damage from trash than they do from bosses).
Also, even if you don't have Shield Oath yet, Sword Oath is still helpful, because any damage you deal will boost your enmity, and SwO adds ~50 potency per cooldown, which can help close the gap a bit.
One of the best things I can recommend for this is to Flash frequently. Until you get Shield Oath at level 40, you'll want to start every pull with 2-3 Flashes, and then work another one in between each RoH combo. In general, that should be enough in most cases, but if you're going in NQ white gear, you might need to work a little more. What I like to do at those levels is cycle each piece of the RoH combo onto a different enemy. So I'll hit one enemy with Fast Blade (FB) and Savage Blade (SB), tab to the next target for Rage of Halone, Flash, then tab to the next target for FB-SB, and so on. It can take some getting used to, but tabbing targets like that to spread your enmity is one of the best tricks you can learn (especially in your level 60 roulette as a freshly-capped tank, it will help you hold hate off that iLvl 240 SMN that you got).Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
Keep in mind, too, that Provoke is not like WoW's taunt; it only puts you just on top of the enmity list, so you need to follow it up with something like Flash or Shied Lob to re-establish your enmity lead. I've found that usually if a mob gets away, I can just use Shield Lob, so I can save Provoke for the rare instance when that doesn't work.
The other thing you can do is mark your targets, but that only works for single target DPS, and not for jobs that have at least halfway decent AoE.
In general, no. There are abilities that you always want to use together, but especially on a PS4, you should have more than enough slots for every action you have access to.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
The only exception would be a marking macro of some kind, to help the DPS and healer know which targets you intend to prioritize, but I'm not sure how readily available that would be on PS4.
You are most certainly welcome! Hope we've been able to help! Don't hesitate to ask more questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
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03-24-2016, 12:48 AMSpookyGhost
It's been upwards of a year since I actually leveled PLD, but a general rule of thumb for me was to always open with:
Shield Lob -> Flash -> Flash
at low level. You can try marking your primary target with "1", though eventually (nearer to 50) this'll be less necessary. If you find that people are focusing down multiple targets, focus on Flashing and spreading out your RoH combo. If they're only focusing down your primary target, then try to focus your enmity on it and spread out once that target is closer to death. The more you level up the easier it'll be to maintain hate, especially at lvl 40 when you acquire ShO (as ChameleonMS said). Make sure you're keeping your armor and weapon up to date, as those affect how well you maintain hate - especially your weapon. -
03-24-2016, 01:26 AMGeula
I'm also in process of levelling paladin and as mentioned earlier, shield oath makes a world of difference. The incread hate generation and damage reduction is just that great. It was pretty hellish to maintain hate before I got it but now that I got it's really smooth sailing.
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03-24-2016, 01:59 AMJhett_Magnum
Want to be a better tank?
Level a Tank to 60.
Then level a Healer to 60.
If you manage that get a DPS to 60.
You need perspective. -
03-24-2016, 07:45 AMAnzerGoing into a thread about getting advice as a new tank, not reading the first sentence in the OP: Priceless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
For everything else, there's Mog Card. -
03-24-2016, 12:12 PMAnienai
1. Get marauder up to 26ish for all the decent CC abilities.
2. Mark targets and tab using RoH combo.
3. Learn the motto that's been handed down from mother to daughter and father to step-son:
You spank it! You tank it!
4. Keep your weapon close to your level. -
03-24-2016, 12:24 PMTorunyaYes. Yes we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
On topic, just follow the advice that has already been posted by others here and you'll do fine. ^^ Good luck! -
03-24-2016, 12:35 PMCanadane
The only thing that I could add to what's already been said is, get comfortable with consistently changing targets.
Not just for new adds incoming, but for an already pulled group. AOEs are aplenty and you can't always count on your DPS to focus what you had intended. So keeping an eye on the enmity bars on each player of the party as you select each mob is something you would want to get used to.
At lower levels, generally this is easier because there's less AOE damage outgoing, so unless your healer is overhealing you, you can see the damage on mobs and would have a good idea that someone may pull it off you soon. But at higher levels, you need to be aware that your comboed up Rage of Halone might be better off used on Mob D rather than your currently selected Mob A. -
03-24-2016, 03:28 PMwinsock
Beginner / early level tips:
* Make sure your gear is up to date.
* Lead a pull with shield lob, followed by at least 1-2 flashes.
* FoF increase emnity gains from your attacks as well as flash.
Dealing w/ High DPS party members in low level content on a low level char:
* leading with shield lob is very important. Its an inital threat boost but also some players see this as a signal to attack target X. At the very least, it creates a situation where particularly aggressive party members can only attack 1 target safely and helps create scenarios where they both attack the same target.
* FoF is important! On bosses, make sure you use it as often as possible. On trash, lining it up with say, your Bard's raging strikes will help ensure you keep threat.
* Don't forget about the other mobs in the pull. You only need enough threat to hold a target til it dies. If you've met that requirement start building a threat lead on the other mobs. Also remember that periodic use of flash will help build a threat lead -
03-24-2016, 04:30 PMRongway
Against THMs, your best bet will be flash away all your MP and then spam FastBlade-RiotBlade to get your MP back. With other DDs, you might be able to manage with just flashing away half your MP.
Something to remember about that big hunk of metal on your left arm is that it only blocks frontal attacks. You can't block stuff that's behind you, so when possible you'll want to pull a group tight and then position yourself so they're all in front of you. It won't always work, because they'll rearrange themselves a bit so as not to be right on top of each other, but do what you can. Auto attacks factor into your hate generation also, and they follow the same rule. Learn which mobs you can /lockon to to maintain facing; this will mostly be any mob that doesn't do a self-centered circle AoE.
You want to maintain a consistent facing for the mobs as well, so that the DDs can do their directional attacks without having to deal with sudden swings. I like to stand on the target's facing indicator (the little arrow on the front of the target's ground circle), and return to that spot after any dodges. You'll also want to make sure the rear indicator (the gap in the back of the circle) isn't inside a wall or obstacle, so that melee DDs can get in and out of the rear sector as their attacks require.
The absolute biggest advice I have for you, from 1 to 60, is to keep your gear current. DDs and healers can get away with wearing accessories ten or twenty levels behind. Tanks can't. At best, you'll slightly piss off a healer (who has to spam a tier II heal to keep you alive) or a DD (who has to blizzard a whole dungeon to keep from ripping things off you). At worst, you'll get two-shotted and the healer will leave you dead while a DD tanks. -
03-24-2016, 04:48 PMViolette
Let me put a bit of perspective onto your current tanking woes.
All tanks recently got a kick in the teeth damage wise, which DIRECTLY influences amount of enmity generated.
In tank stance, this is evened out by a multiplier on all enmity generating actions, but outside of it you will have a hard time generating enmity. This actually allows for offtanks such as berserking warrior's to not risk drawing aggro from the MT unless the MT has not established a significant lead.
However, until you get to level 40? and unlock Shield Oath as a paladin, your enmity generation from damaging moves will be somewhat discouraging (but don't be!). Flash is still strong and you will still get there, it's just made the gladiators enmity issues more annoying (until you get to 40 as a paladin).
So 2-3 flashes will always be helpful.
And make sure your weapon is up to date, usually within 2-3 levels of your current. This is the most important part of enmity gen. -
03-24-2016, 05:44 PMGrux
Protip:
Flash will be your #1 snap aggro, especially when dealing with more than 2 mobs.
Before level 40, you will only have access to Sword Oath. Make sure it's on full time as it increases your damage done (thus directly increases your aggro generated on mobs).
At level 40 and above, you will have access to Shield Oath. Use that from now on when tanking.
Your most used combo will be:
Fast Blade (low aggro) > Savage Blade (medium aggro) > Rage of Halone (stronk aggro).
Advanced protip:
Spamming flash may be the obvious solution of getting aggro - and it is what most tanks are going to recommend.
This is true. It also depends on several factors:
1) are the mobs grouped together for your Flash?
2) are your DPSes going ham immediately without mustard before you wait for the mobs to be grouped together?
3) are you speed running or grouping up more mobs?
You can choose to spread the combo on different mobs.
Remember what I said about your combo?
Fast Blade aka FB (low aggro) > Savage Blade aka SB (medium aggro) > Rage of Halone aka RoH (stronk aggro).
Scenario 1: Mob A and B.
Here is how you spread combo (simplified)
FB on Mob A. SB on Mob B. RoH on Mob A.
The result will be, mob A will receive the low and stronk aggro - Mob A is also generally the primary Mob your DPSes will go ham on. It's no problem as you already have RoH on Mob A, it's pretty difficult for DPS to peel them off you. What about Mob B? As your DPSes will be targeting Mob A, there will be little aggro placed on Mob B - and you already have the SB placed (medium aggro). So both Mob A and B will stick to you.
And then, you can switch them around, FB on Mob B, SB on Mob A, RoH on Mob B.
What the above means is that you've successfully done full combo on both Mob A and B in 2 rotations.
This is generally better than doing full combo on Mob A then full combo on Mob B, because by the time you have full combo on Mob A, Mob B is already targeting your healer. Also some DPS target different mobs.
Use your OGCD abilities like Spirits Within everytime it is up. More damage = more emnity.
Advanced protip #2
In the event you're speed running, or gathering up more mobs before your party clears them, it is advisable to alternate Shield Lob on mobs.
Run > Shield Lob on A > Run > Shield Lob on B > Run Shield Lob on C > Wait > Circle of Scorn > Flash > Flash > Flash > Pop CD > Pop Soda.
In the event you're speed running across packs of mobs.
Run > Flash > Flash > Run > Flash > Run Flash etc
TLDR:
Shield Lob > Flash > Flash > Flash > FB on A, SB on B, RoH on A/C/D etc.
FoF often. Spirits Within often. Pop CDs often. -
03-24-2016, 06:31 PMRongwayYou can and should use Spirits Within; however, do your best to think consciously about doing each time. Don't assimilate it into your autopilot. If you reflexively use it every time it's up, you will reflexively get the party hit by silenceable attacks later when it matters, and the piddly bit of enmity you managed to eke out won't mean a thing when the party's dead or paralyzed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grux
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03-24-2016, 09:51 PMShuvool
since shield swipe is only limited by the GCD, other than if the cast is really short and you happen to activate the GCD right as the cast starts, what's wrong with using SW on cd and using SS to interrupt?
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03-24-2016, 10:14 PMJpec07Only downside of this is that there seem to be frustratingly few instances where Spirits Within's silence ability actually matters. In most of the content, at least in my experience and testing, it's far more useful as a DPS boost than an interrupt. I'd love it if it worked better that way, but it seems to have the same problem as Tempered Will, wherein the developers ignored its unique 1s silence effect in coding the majority of abilities in endgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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03-25-2016, 04:38 AMGeekMatt
I use macros only for their novelty, but I never recommend macro'd skills for any job (though many SCHs swear they're necessary, the best SCH I know doesn't like them), but in the end it's up to player preference. At endgame a pull macro is good to have.
A tanks priority order is Enmity Management > Survival >DPS and support. The first two make you a good tank, the last puts you above other good tanks. Doing 3 before 1 and 2 makes you a 2.0 DRG, only considerably less useful and not as badass looking.
Enmity: -Flash offsets healer aggro and AoE DPS.
-Your Rage of Halone (Savage Blade) combo is for fending off against single target DPS, and aggro maintenance. Shield Lob primary target > Flash 2 times > Rage of Halone combo your primary target. Watch your Enemy list, the target losing health the fastest is the one that needs your aggro the most. When you have comfortable aggro there, cycle attacks through the enemies. You can flash occasionally if you're having trouble paying attention to which enemy needs more aggro, but should learn to keep track by watching the aggro meters in the party list frequently
-Tanks are the most gear dependant job because you're in direct competition with the DPS. Keep it up to date as best you can (You don't have to go crazy), especially your sword. Weapon
Survival: -Your defensive CDs are for tank busters first. When heavy predictable hits aren't a concern, cycle your CDs to mitigate your overall incoming damage, making sure you can still mitigate the hard-hits appropriately. Rampart is my favourite buff, it's got a solid potency and is on a very short CD time.
-Don't let enemies hit you from behind
-Gear.
DPS and Support: The only support Id really encourage you to pay attention to is your stun. Shield Bash is awesome, but beware the TP cost and lack of aggro generation. When you're all growed up and approaching 50 then I'd start looking at this. -
03-25-2016, 08:25 AMDarthVella
Macros? A lot of players will tell you that macros are terrible, but I find them useful to stack similar buffs onto (like Rampart, Foresight, etc) and whenever you need some mitigation you hit the button once and it will pop the first buff that's ready.
Another thing - if you lose hate on a mob and it starts running off to your caster buddies, don't chase it and drag the mobs away from your melee friends. Hit it with Shield Lob once or twice and it should run back, then you can smack it with your enmity combo to keep it on you. -
03-27-2016, 01:31 AMTristanBlane
Thank you all so much for your advice !! I took my time to read every single thing posted and It really helped me get comfortable with tanking and better understand the paladin job! I finally got my paladin job stone last night! Yay me! And successfully ran Haukke Manor the second go. The first time went terrible because I was heavily under geared , as I have learned through you all it is a big no no for tanks! I kept having the hate ripped off of me D: ! They spoil you when your a healer or dps and can get away with havin gear 10 lvl under you! And I'm really seeing the importance of spreading out my Rage of Halone combo to help keep the aggro with multiple mobs!! I'm very excited to go further with paladin!
I have a question on cross class abilities, which would be best to take? At first I took CNJ skills such as protect and cure then I decided to take some MRD skills like Fracture , Forseight and Bloodbath to help with Cooldowns and DPS. Which are the most optimal choices for Cross Class skills??
Also, is Shield Bash the only stun that a paladin has? I've had multiple situations where I was mid combo on a monster and they start casting and my Shield Bash timer isn't up yet and I'm panicking hoping I can shield bash before they finish casting . -
03-27-2016, 02:21 AMAnienai
For MRD CC skills:
1. Bloodbath with fight or flight since they share a 90 sec cd.
2. Foresight with convalescence since they share a 120 sec cd.
You can macro them together or not. -
03-27-2016, 05:08 AMJpec07This is really awesome to hear! So glad we were able to help! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
Really, only Foresight and Bloodbath are considered essential. The others people take have their strengths and weaknesses:Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
- Protect (CNJ 8) - PLD's version of this skill isn't quite as good as the healers' version, as it only affects physical defense. But if someone needs to be raised mid-fight, and you have a few moments where you know you won't take heavy damage or be interrupted, you can hit it to give someone as a stop-gap until the healers can do you one better.
- Stoneskin (CNJ 34) - For a PLD, at endgame, this can become 2,000-2,500 HP mitigation that you might not have otherwise had. Downside is that you can't block or parry while you're casting, and it takes two GCDs to do, but it can provide a fair amount of additional mitigation. Depending on the fight, this can conceivably make it so that a healer's Regen can keep you topped off, outside of tankbusters. If you're offtanking, you can also throw it on the MT to help with tankbusters, or anyone who you know is about to hit with something.
- Mercy Stroke (MRD 26) - As a PLD, you're not generally going to do enough damage for it to give you the healing effect inside a dungeon, but when your soloing, it's pretty nice. It also provides an additional bit of DPS, as (I believe, but I'm not sure) it is off the global cooldown. NOTE: if I'm wrong and it is ON the global cooldown, it is a DPS loss for PLD.
- Fracture (MRD 6) - The main drawback of this ability is the fact that it's very expensive, costing 80 TP. However, until you get into Heavensward content, it does provide a bit of additional damage for PLD. Most PLDs don't take it, though, because in order for it to be fully effective, you can't clip the last DoT tick, and because we don't have any means to recover our own TP (and until the most recent patch, we were encountering issues where we were running out of TP).
The rest either don't have combat ability (Raise), or aren't effective enough to be meaningful (Skull Sunder, Cure).
Eventually you'll get Spirits Within, which will interrupt most spells, and is off the global cooldown. However, if it is something you know you can interrupt, and which you know you can't escape, it is my experience that it's always better to interrupt your own combo to use Shield Bash than it is to not. However, it is often better to dodge an AoE cast than it is to use your interrupt. It really depends on what skill/spell you're trying to interrupt, which is something you'll develop as you get more experience with the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
EDIT: Also, Shield Swipe's Pacify effect can work wonders against mobs channeling big physical attacks. It's a bit trickier to time, though, so generally isn't as reliable as Spirits Within or Shield Bash.
These two should never, ever, ever--a thousand times, never--be macro'd together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anienai
Bloodbath and Fight of Flight, yes, but not these two. -
03-27-2016, 05:18 AMGalgarionThe devs really need to consider flipping around the order in which paladins receive shield oath and sword oath. Ten whole levels of frustration is just plain silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geula
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03-27-2016, 05:24 AMTyrialThat's because macroing abilities is terrible. It interferes with how skills naturally queue up with the system. Also, macroing things the way you suggested gives you no control over what you're hitting as it uses them in order of whichever one is off CD first. This is terrible as a tank given some incoming damage doesn't require the strongest CD you have which is what you may end up hitting doing it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVella
You need to be constantly adjusting to your situation as a tank which means gauging incoming damage and using the appropriate CD (which you'll learn as you go, OP) for the situation. -
03-27-2016, 05:33 AMIagainstiDidn't read through, just having coffee, so disregard if it's mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
I play on ps4 also, keep in mind when you target lock, you can't move through the mob sprites like you can if you just target them, very important for movement intense fight mechanics. Just focus on the ground target circle while moving to stay in range. Also, this makes pulling packs easier, run through with your aoe aggro, then 180 and voila.
For macros, that's purely a player preference, if anything, macro your aggro combo to your first attack in said combo while still having the actions on your bar to manually input it. The macro wait time is 3 sec minimum, while the gcd is 2.5, but for knee jerk movements( ex dps drops a Titan plume under your feet) this allows you to move and still execute the combo if you keep the enemy targeted. -
03-27-2016, 12:41 PMRongwayProtect: Everyone's protect is the same as of 3.0. Take it and use it on un-dead party members to save the healers some MP/heal time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Stoneskin: Use it as an extra cooldown, or better yet a cooldown-by-proxy when offtanking.
Fracture's total potency is 220.
Rage of Halone combo is 150 + 200 + 260 = 610 over three GCDs, mean potency 203.
Royal Authority is 150 + 200 + 350 = 700 over three GCDs, mean potency 233.
Goring Blade combo is 150 + 230 + 640 = 1020 over three GCDs, mean potency 340.
Skip fracture. It's overpriced in general and becomes even worse comparatively if you off tank.
Mercy Stroke is an oGCD 200 potency attack. Don't bank on its healing effect. You can't fire it often, and when you do, you'll almost never get the killshot with it because the timing is so strict, but it's extra damage with nothing to lose. Mostly take it because there's no reason to take Cure, Raise, Fracture, and Skull Sunder outside of raising people you run across on the overworld.. -
03-27-2016, 01:20 PMfm_fenrir
PLD is more planned than WAR/DRK in the stun department. You only get Shield Bash on GCD,which is the price you pay for being able to do it more than once every 20/30/20 seconds like WAR/DRK/DRG.
As far as cross-class skills go, you want Mercy Stroke, Bloodbath, Foresight from MRD, and Protect/Stoneskin from CNJ. You won't really use Fracture all that much after you hit 60, because it eats a lot of TP, and TP isn't something PLD has a large supply of. -
03-27-2016, 02:00 PMJpec07Until you get Goring Blade (54), it still represents a DPS gain, as the potency per GCD is higher than your highest-potency combo (220 > 203).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
The math is a little skewed when you get Goring Blade, because it becomes your highest potency combo even without the DoT in 3.2. The DoT's efficacy only counts if it runs at or near its full course, so if you're going for full DPS (which, OP, should only be done if you have a comfortable enmity lead in most content), the potency-per-GCD translates to roughly 150 (FB) + 230 (RB) + 240 (GB) + 150 (GB DoT - one tick per GCD) = 770/3 = 256.67 potency per GCD. So once you get Goring Blade, it becomes a DPS loss, but until that point, it still-potency's both Rage of Halone combo and Riot Blade combo.
I also need to confirm what you're saying about Protect. I could have sworn that the PLD version only buffed Physical Defense, but I may be wrong. -
03-30-2016, 02:11 AMwinsockAs of 3.0 PLD buffs both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
The change had more to do with healer balance. Originally the skill did only physical while WHM had a trait (proshell) that made it cover magic as well. With the introduction of AST, SE was concerned protect might lock a WHM spot into party comps, so the WHM trait was merged into the skill itself. -
03-30-2016, 01:30 PMgiantslayer
Here is my favorite tank guide:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ide-to-Tanking -
03-31-2016, 04:36 AMGeekMattShield Bash is a FANTASTIC stun, but it requires some experience and skill to use. As far as tanks go, only PLD can stun-lock enemies, or cycle stuns through trash mobs as a means of reducing your damage when things go sideways. It sounds unreliable compared to stuns that are instant and off the global Cooldown, but use that stun at the wrong time and it's unavailable when you desperately need it. In the hands of a skilled player, I consider Shield Bash to be the best stun in the game. Holy is also awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanBlane
But yes, it's our only stun.