Any else kinda disappointed how bland the quests are? Do the quests get better at later levels? Does warrior also get shafted?
Paladin quests from level 30 to 40.
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03-23-2016, 11:58 PMGeulaPaladin quests from level 30 to 40.
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03-24-2016, 12:17 AMJpec07
PLD has arguably the most horrible storyline in the game. I keep a link in my signature to What Makes a Paladin - an essay I wrote complaining about the very thing (though be warned, what little plot there is will be spoiled if you read it). WAR is better and more fitting with the job fantasy, and DRK is generally agreed to be one of the best plotlines in the game (at least, 30-50).
The biggest let-down about the PLD quests is that they come on the heels of the GLD questline, which is another exceptionally great questline. Everyone in my FC agrees that the GLD story is incredible, which makes the poor PLD story that much worse. -
03-24-2016, 12:52 AMSpookyGhost
I always thought the PLD quest was a bit anti-climactic. It started off kinda cool, I liked the Roe and how he had that air of mystery about him... but then it just kinda... got super boring... I dunno. I'm curious about the 50-60 quests but not enough to level PLD. P:
Also, RE: the GLD questline, I thought that was a fun one - especially the instanced fights with that Hyur guy and the little bit of character building between him and the class quest giver. -
03-24-2016, 01:03 AMThe_NPC
30-50 is just a meh (small build-up to a instance fight to prove inosence) 50-60 is more of a ??? (cloak & dagger build-up to a hilander style instance fight) won't say more for spoilers reasons
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03-24-2016, 03:34 AMFebrus
I find that with most class/jobs in this game, half the story is boring while the other half is interesting. For Pld, I liked the characters for the Gld quests more than the ones for the Pld quest. For War's, the job quests were far more interesting than the class quests. Drk doesn't really have class quests, but the sub 50 quests were WAY better than the post 50 ones.
For the Pld quests, specifically, the post 50 quests do have some intrigue. There's a pretty interesting streak of lore in there, but you have to really read between the lines to get at it. -
03-24-2016, 05:39 AMDuelleThey sort of dropped the ball with some of the job quests. I admit that there's not much you can do when you only have 5 quests in which to tell a story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
To be fair, the PLD and WAR 30-50 quests had a goal in sight. What made the DRK 30-50 questline so memorable to people was the sort-of-surprise at the end.Quote:
For Pld, I liked the characters for the GLA quests more than the ones for the Pld quest. For War's, the job quests were far more interesting than the class quests. Drk doesn't really have class quests, but the sub 50 quests were WAY better than the post 50 ones.
I'll agree that PLD's quest was a bit on the bland side. WAR at least had reasonably high stakes, but again you knew what you were going to face.
I think the problem was the lack of risk in the 50-60 questline. Risk and conflict are what make a story interesting (not to say a story should have risk and conflict all the time, as that would devalue everything), and the one assumed risk by the player was taken away and replaced by something else.Quote:
For the Pld quests, specifically, the post 50 quests do have some intrigue. There's a pretty interesting streak of lore in there, but you have to really read between the lines to get at it.
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03-24-2016, 02:52 PMSeku
In short no.
Paladin is probably the worse story line of all the classes imo.
And the Dark Knight quests are good not just because of the end. But also because it outlines your journey into the hatred that Drk's are suppose to be tied in with. That and the first fight to unlock the job is just pure awesome.
But of all the 3 tanks, it feels that SE puts the least amount of work into PLD, their getting better. Hopefully 4.0 will bring a new level cap and with it a better storyline along with some good abilities. -
03-24-2016, 03:08 PMPhileas
In a word, no. They dont get better.
It just gets more rediculous and silly from 50 to 60. -
03-24-2016, 03:10 PMZariI found PLD 50-60 better than 30-50 but yeah I agree I hope they do better in 4.0, PLD needs it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seku
Though as for abilities I am not really sure if we can handle many more skills with how the skill system in this game works (where you will be using almost if not all of your skills that you got). There is already decent skill bloat on some jobs -
03-24-2016, 03:26 PMTorunya
I'm personally disappointed that Paladin doesn't take more after Gladiator in terms of style honestly. Where's the arena fights? Where are the cool duels? What do you mean I can't use two swords? The Gld icon has two swords in it for crying out loud! It's misleading. The Gld questline is very satisfying, I admit. But I feel the Pld questline has more potential it could have dug up from its Gld younger brother. What you initially sign up for just doesn't seem to be what you end up with when you're sitting there as a level 60 Pld.
"[...] there are practicioners who marry sword with shield, seeking to defend their fellow companions. Others opt for an empty off hand, choosing instead to focus entirely on their sword arm. [...]"
- Gladiator desc. in the Character Creation.
It's like SE themselves doesn't even know what they want us to be.
Disclaimer: I absolutely love Paladin, don't get me wrong. -
03-24-2016, 05:53 PMFebrus*Heavily implied spoilers here, for anyone who has not yet completed the Drk quest line. Just a heads up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I was pretty well hooked at that point. Drk's pre-50 quest line quickly became my favorite quest line in the entire game ... which only served to make the post-50 quest line that much more disappointing. It goes to show how much they can do with a short number of quests, should they put the effort in.I think it was around the disgruntled merchant part of the pre-50 Drk quest line in which a bell started to sound in my mind ringing the tune of: "The first rule of fight club is ..."
Lack of risk definitely was a part of it. During the post-50 quest line for Paladin, I felt more like a bystander, or witness, than an important part of the quest. They do give you a substantial role at the end of it, but it was lacking impact because it seemingly came out of left field. Further, there was a lack of general intrigue in that quest. For me, one of the biggest short comings was that there was a lot of mixed messages coming out of the confused Pld identity. For example,Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Pld's are supposed to be noble defenders, but there was a heavy implication that their strength comes from defeating enemies and overcoming rivals. There was a mentor/apprentice relationship being played with in several parts of the quest, as well as a general attitude of nurturing and cultivating a new generation of Pld's (it's actually outright mentioned that recruitment has gone up as a direct result of your influence), but by the end it falls down to a matter of dominance and superiority. They flip the tables and imply that strength equals worth, and worthiness is elitism (simplifying this quite a bit).
Worse yet, it's difficult to care about what any of the Npc's have to say about it, because none of them seem to have any idea what they're talking about. The mentors that are supposed to be your guiding examples of what it is to actually be a paladin lack the experience to fill that roll, and in the end your left wondering if any of them have the right of it, or if you're better off walking a completely different path entirely. This is a big reason for why the Pld quest is so lack luster. By the end, you don't feel like your character has grown in any way shape or form. The quest actually solidifies that you're just the best by default, and you didn't grow in any way. Even the new job abilities you get seemingly come out of nowhere. You're arbitrarily handed them because you're supposed to be the best, not because you grew as a Pld or had any logical/circumstantial reasons for pushing your limits. It really devalues the entire experience.
Like I said, there's a lot to pick apart in the Pld quest line, and there's some serious implications depending on what kind of reading you take away from it (sympathetic or cynical). The fact that there isn't a strong sense of closure on any of the key issues surrounding the Pld, let alone a clear image of what those issues actually are, leaves the player a little out of sorts. Personally, I don't feel like SE has done the Pld job justice with the current quest line. They really need to buckle down and hash some things out by the next arc. -
03-24-2016, 06:13 PMFebrusI agree. I love Pld to pieces, but SE really hasn't given us a solid grasp on what we are or what we're supposed to be. Even our ability kits are confused. Our Gld abilities and weapons stats had us all set up to be one thing, but our Pld abilities pull a 180 and take us somewhere else. It's part of the reason why a lot of the Pld kit is considered to be broken, and is still broken despite numerous patch jobs that SE has thrown at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torunya
A lot of us actually theorized that the original plan for Pld's was to have a branching job system, similar to Arc > Sch (healer) / Arc > Smn (dps). In our case, it would have likely been Gld > Pld (tank) / Gld > Drk (dps). Drk was the most likely option, because it traditionally opposes Plds in most FF titles; though, Sword Master, Viking, Mercenary, Mystic Knight / Red Mage were other possible options. There was a lot of evidence pointing in that SE was going to take this direction with Gld, but they never did. Some of us theorize that it didn't happen because of the backlash they saw with Sch/Smn having incompatible skill points, but we'll never really know if this was their actual plan or not unless they outright tell us.
Personally, I'm a little disappointed that they didn't do something like this, or at least make substantial changes to Pld to compensate. As you've pointed out, there's a lot of things about Pld that just don't fit. -
03-24-2016, 11:30 PMgarret_hawkeWell that could be possible since the game description says: Others opt for an empty off hand. Choosing instead to focus entirely on their sword arm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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03-24-2016, 11:52 PMJpec07See, GLD->DRK would have made a lot of sense if they'd made DRK a DPS job instead of a tank--they could have made it so GLD+THM = DRK, just like how GLD+CNJ = PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I also have a strong distaste for the Paladin storyline in general, because there isn't anything compelling about it at all. We have so many examples in literature, theater, film, and television of lawful good characters who are written in interesting and compelling ways that aren't the least bit stale that it makes me really sad we got what we did.
I also feel like they REALLY dropped the ball with the Heavensward story. Half of MSQ is a huge buildup to the Knights of the Round Primal, and we could very easily have had some amazing storytelling within the Heavens' Ward and/or some of the other knightly organizations in Ishgard. But instead we follow Constaint around on what effectively amounts to a sideshow with the most obvious plot twist ever.
I also happened to really like the DRK storyline in Heavensward. I thought it was well-written, the characters had a realism and depth about them, and certain plot elements struck very close to home. -
03-25-2016, 01:45 AMRaji_Lev
The most excruciatingly dull questline for the most excruciatingly dull job. Seems fair. [/smartass]
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03-25-2016, 03:40 AMKosmos992kINdeed, I keep hoping that sometime or other there will be a new Job that actually continues straight off Gladiator using Marauder as 2nd contributing class that takes a trip down the memory lane of the Flame General. He's not a Gladiator, he's not a Warrior, or Marauder, and sure as heck isn't a Paladin. So what is he? Twin blade fighting styles are not all that common in reality, so I'd guess his style and whatever job name you would create, would be an Eorzean original.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torunya
p.s. so far the most cringe-worthy thing in any class quest has to be the time when a Marauder goes out, and hits a rock with his axe, returns to the quest giver who exclaims some BS about hearing the rock crack and passes you on to the next level. So, the entire class quest consisted of....hitting a rock...once...a rock. I know of nothing more dull...except the Axe after attacking a rock. ;) -
03-25-2016, 03:54 AMJpec07This is practice for the quest wherein you have to prove that idiot north of Moraby Drydocks wasn't actually a member of the Company of Heroes. I hear Marauders and Warriors can get through that no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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03-25-2016, 05:20 AMDuelleI'm not seeing where this idea of brokenness comes from. The job has a foundation in swordsmanship and use of a shield. Abilities that involve either or, and defensive cooldowns that have to be there because the job is a tank. The only things I could consider out there would be Clemency and Divine Veil, the former an ability I did NOT want to see because I liked the idea of PLD being a knight despite the individuals that were irrationally asking for potent heals on a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Actually, it's just that SE was too lazy to change the GLA description from 1.0 to 2.0. The GLA description was worded that way because it used to have traits that boosted damage dealt if you didn't equip a shield. This was back when traits could be swapped in an out depending on what you were aiming to do with the class.Quote:
A lot of us actually theorized that the original plan for Pld's was to have a branching job system, similar to Arc > Sch (healer) / Arc > Smn (dps). In our case, it would have likely been Gld > Pld (tank) / Gld > Drk (dps). Drk was the most likely option, because it traditionally opposes Plds in most FF titles; though, Sword Master, Viking, Mercenary, Mystic Knight / Red Mage were other possible options. There was a lot of evidence pointing in that SE was going to take this direction with Gld, but they never did. Some of us theorize that it didn't happen because of the backlash they saw with Sch/Smn having incompatible skill points, but we'll never really know if this was their actual plan or not unless they outright tell us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
See, the thing with that is that the writers went out of their way to paint the Heavens Ward as cronies of the archbishop. There's no way in hell you'd join them because of that alone. The fact you fight and kill them at the end of the MSQ means you can't have an adversarial relationship with any of them, either. -
03-25-2016, 09:01 AMFebrusIt's true that Pld's have a foundation in swordsmanship and shield defense; however only the shield is ever emphasized, and it's not emphasized all that well. None of our combos utilize our shield, for example. Shield Bash is a dps loss unless you absolutely have to stun something, and even then it cancels your current combo; so it doesn't work with your offense. It doesn't block magic, and the only way to buff it is not by activating the "Shield Oath," but by using Bulwark, which is one of the longest defensive CD's a Pld has. The write the Pld as a master of the sword and shield, but the way you actually use them is counter-intuitive and clunky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Worse yet, the Gld kit is fundamentally incompatible with the Pld kit, and the Whm kit is fundamentally incompatible with both Gld and Pld. In most cases, the Pld moves work against one another. Take casting for example, Clemency is a great heal and can be used for yourself or your team, but you can't defend or attack while using it. Even your passive block rate is made null and void. How about Fight or Flight? That's a solid Dps increase taken right out of our Gld roots, right? True story, but you'd better deactivate Shield Oath, because they don't work well together and your wasting Dps and enmity by having them both active at the same time. I could go into a lot more detail than this. I could probably write you an essay explaining exactly why and how Pld is broken from both a technical and lore stand point, but the short hand of it is that it is torn between 3 different jobs which it fails to fully realize. It's lacks balance between the things it claims to be, and almost none of its tools work well together.
That's an interesting insight. I wasn't around for 1.0, so I did not know this. It's kind of sad though. It sounds as though SE had some interesting ideas with the original 1.0 game. I know that most of it didn't work, which is why it all failed, but every now and then I hear about a few things that sound as though they would have been cool to run with if SE had stuck to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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03-25-2016, 10:12 AMDuelleThat's intentional, since the ability to stun (specially when said stun has no cooldown) requires opportunity cost or some other trade-off to make it balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
This is because Shield Oath is a tank stance. They could have called it Defensive Stance instead and would be the same thing. SE just wanted to be fancy (hell, the JP versions of Sword and Shield Oaths are "Sword of Loyalty" and "Shield of Loyalty").Quote:
It doesn't block magic, and the only way to buff it is not by activating the "Shield Oath," but by using Bulwark, which is one of the longest defensive CD's a Pld has. The write the Pld as a master of the sword and shield, but the way you actually use them is counter-intuitive and clunky.
I can kind of agree on Bulwark, though that's only because WAR ended up getting something much better than Bulwark and DRK has a sort of equivalent on a shorter cooldown. Bulwark is one of the first things I'd axe if I was allowed to tweak GLA/PLD for that very reason.
This is partly a concept thing. Paladins in past FFs have had access to white magic in some form (usually weak and still a far cry of what a white mage could be capable of). You can't really throw that out the window.Quote:
Worse yet, the Gld kit is fundamentally incompatible with the Pld kit, and the Whm kit is fundamentally incompatible with both Gld and Pld.
This sort of makes sense, though. If you're busy casting a spell you're not going to block. Yes, I get that FFXI and FFXIV 1.23 had a block mechanic on casts, but in both cases healing was part of enmity generation. And needless to say, I was very happy to see that go away.Quote:
In most cases, the Pld moves work against one another. Take casting for example, Clemency is a great heal and can be used for yourself or your team, but you can't defend or attack while using it.
It's still a gain in damage which thus translates to a gain in enmity generation. In fact, it's damage gain is taking into account the damage penalty from Shield Oath. It's obviously not going to be the same amount of damage as Sword Oath/no stance, but that's sort of the point. Tank stances exist to be used when taking the mob, so this is all perfectly natural. The very core of a tank stance is to sacrifice offense for defense.Quote:
How about Fight or Flight? That's a solid Dps increase taken right out of our Gld roots, right? True story, but you'd better deactivate Shield Oath, because they don't work well together and your wasting Dps and enmity by having them both active at the same time.
I'll disagree, as I am still not seeing these major issues. There's abilities that need tweaks but aside from that the job is actually solidly designed. I'd edge away from making shield combat a thing for PLD for the simple reason that it can be instead used as the foundation for a new job. It's obviously not going to replace a healer in any way, nor should it. I guess we could say it draws close to a hybrid while not really being one, and that's not really a bad thing.Quote:
I could go into a lot more detail than this. I could probably write you an essay explaining exactly why and how Pld is broken from both a technical and lore stand point, but the short hand of it is that it is torn between 3 different jobs which it fails to fully realize. It's lacks balance between the things it claims to be, and almost none of its tools work well together.
1.0's dev team was different from the team brought in by Yoshida.Quote:
That's an interesting insight. I wasn't around for 1.0, so I did not know this. It's kind of sad though. It sounds as though SE had some interesting ideas with the original 1.0 game. I know that most of it didn't work, which is why it all failed, but every now and then I hear about a few things that sound as though they would have been cool to run with if SE had stuck to it.
The armoury system was built on an entirely different idea, as well.