Enmity change suggestions

The last I heard, Enmity generation is on a point-for-point basis. Meaning:

If one heals for 1000 HP, they generate 1000 enmity. If they have Out Of Sight equipped, they generate 990 Enmity.

If one deals 400 Damage with a WS that takes all TP, they generate 400 Enmity. With Intimidation, it is 410 Enmity.

If one deals 8 damage with an auto attack, that would be 18 enmity..

Point for point enmity is a flawed way to do it and makes enmity generation adjusters worthless. My suggestion to fix this is:

Make each point generate 30 Enmity each, and Instead of enmity adjusting skills or items reducing the total enmity generated, it reduces or increases enmity for each point instead. so:

1000 HP would generate 1000x30 or 30000 Enmity. With out of sight, It would equate to 1000X20 enmity, or 20000 enmity.

400 DMG on an enemy would generate 400x30 enmity, or 12000 enmity. With Intimidation, it would be 400x40 enmity, or 16000 enmity. Putting it just under the enmity generation of an 1000 point heal.

Add materia:

1000 HP heal With out of sight and a Touch of Serenety materia (-4) would be 1000x16 or 16000 enmity

400 dmg with Intimidate and Touch of Rage (+5) would be 400x45 or 18000 enmity.

Mind you, a GLD would rarely do 400 damage in a fight against an NM, even with Riot Blade and full TP. More like:

350 DMG (Riot Blade) with Intimidate and Touch of Rage (+10) for 350X50 or 17500 Enmity, Plus the increased enmity from the attack itself (however much that is, See bottom).

Auto attacks under VS Hard NM at the damage of a sword (Cobalt Winglet) would be:

8dmg, 8x50 = 400 enmity for that much damage.

This suggestion assumes enmity is still point-for-point and enmity adjusters increase or decrease the total.. Increasing or decreasing the base amount of enmity each point generates can be the balancing point. However, make the number too low and it would become impossible to lose enmity, make the number too high and it will become impossible to hold enmity. Both errors would make skills and materia useless. So if you set the number at 15 then:

1000HP heal would be 1000X1 with Out of Sight and Touch of Serenity (-4) = 1000 Enmity
300Dmg attack = 300x35 = 10500 Enmity
10dmg Auto Attack would be 10x35= 350 Enmity
Too low = never lose enmity

Set the number to 60:

1000 HP heal X46 = 46000 Enmity
10dmg AA X80 = 800 Enmity
300dmg WS x80 = 24000 Enmity
Too high = never keep enmity

A tank could essentially hold agro with auto attack if the number is set too low, or never gain it if the number is too high. Go even lower or higher and there would be no need for Materia, since it would once again be useless, and the system will once again be flawed. I think 30 is a good starting number.


Also, Weapon Skills that have increase enmity such as Riot Blade and Storm's Path, and skills that just generate enmity such as Provoke and Disorient, Need to have a number to their enmity generation. Such as "Deals slashing damage and generates 15 extra enmity" or something to that nature. No one can gauge how much enmity they are truly generating if it just says "increases enmity"

intresting point

Your numbers are flawed already in that healing is .75 enmity per 1 point healed. . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Your numbers are flawed already in that healing is .75 enmity per 1 point healed. . .

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Where is that posted at? All discussions in the past have pointed at enmity being point for point, heals or damage. Nothing has changed since then or have said to have changed.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54094.html

I see. In any case, the proposed system is still greater than point for point or point for .75 point which is still stupid. And unless SE changes the txt on the skills to say % and the patch notes to say heals do .75 enmity per point, they are just 10 points and 1 point to me. i'm not going to trust player testing when patch notes and skill txt say otherwise, SE needs to fix those first.

Making the scale larger isn't a solution either. It will just complicate things more. Right not the dev team has been unraveling all the convuluted crap in the game. Simplifying enmity as we go forward will he great, but it will take time.

It actually is the solution. you can only do so much with small numbers. a larger scale can be tweaked easier. A % system as suggested it is does very little for smaller numbers, while a set amount with modifiers to the number does good for both small damage/heals and large damage/heals. 10 damage +10% more is a mere 11 enmity. pretty worthless if it is %. 10 damage +10 more enmity = 20 enmity, which is still low and. 10 damage + 10 per point of damage = 100 enmity, which makes more sense in my eyes. Doing it with % also the calculations will end up with decimals and crap and there will have to be rounding up or down and that doesn't sound simpler to me.

So. . .

What you're actually saying is that you want Out of Sight/Intimidation to be 33% instead of the 10% it is now, and for a Touch of Serenity/Touch of Rage (5 point) to be 16% instead of the (untested) 5% that they are now? Basically, you're just asking for these effects to be about 3x more powerful, but your numbers are also punishing healers a lot more than the current setup. I can't say that I really see this being easier to tweak, either. Currently, tweaking seems to be done by changing the actual damage value, or making things like Provoke grant extra enmity. Under your system, if they change the damage potential of a move, it would have 3x as much impact on its threat generation as it does now.

Now for a giant post comparing the current system, your system, your system with current heal/aggro ratios, and a system with the above percentages for enmity moderation. . .

Current system:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442 enmity, with Intimidation equipped. He now has 486 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage, with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 450 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP, with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 750x.75x.9=~506 enmity, and has pulled aggro unless the Gladiator attacked for at least 19 damage.

Your system:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442x(30+10) enmity. He now has 17,680 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage. He now has 500x(30-10)=10,000 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x(30-10)=15,000 enmity.

Your system, proper heal/enmity ratio:

Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x.75x(30-10)=11,250 enmity or 750x((30x.75)-10)=9,375 enmity, depending on the order chosen.

A system in which Out of Sight/Intimidation are 33% instead of 10%:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442 enmity with Intimidation equipped. He now has 442x1.33=589 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 500x.66=333 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x.75x.66=375 enmity

Now, then, under the current system, a Provoke II won't hold aggro off of a 750 HP heal, which seems fine to me. Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.93:1.04. Note that they're all fairly clumped together. I rather like this, since it means your DPS can't just go all-out as soon as a Provoke fires off, and your healers have to be careful about cure bombing.

Next up is your system. Doing a little more math, if your Gladiator hit for 58 damage, he'd have 20,000 enmity. That would allow the DPS to fire off another 500 damage WS without pulling aggro. Do you really think Provoke II plus 58 damage should equal 1,000 damage? Your Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.85. Now, your DPS can go all-out as soon as they see a Provoke land without any fear of ever pulling aggro. Your healer can heal for 884 without fear, just after Provoke II.

Your system with the proper heal/enmity ratio is even more favorable to healers. New Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.64(.53 for the lower value). Yeah. . . a healer shouldn't be able to heal for 1,000 after just a Provoke II.

Current system, but 33% instead of 10% comes next. Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.64. . . just like your system corrected for heal/enmity ratio. Same comments apply, a healer shouldn't be able to heal for 1,000 HP just because the tank used Provoke II.

I'm not seeing anything in your system that's better than the current system. In fact, I'd say your system by itself does enough to make the Touch of X materia pointless. Each mage being able to heal for nearly 1k HP from a Provoke sounds to me like there will never be aggro issues, and that's sans materia of any sort. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. It's been too long since I've had excuse to do math. :)

Where do you get that number for provoke II, and no I dont want a % or a point for point system. None of the skills that produce extra enmity have a number to them. Also a gladiator AA against an NM meant for L50 players wouldn't get past 15, The only WS that can be done to get above 200 is Riot Blade. And like I said, % does nothing but cause decimals and complication.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reika

Where do you get that number for provoke II, and no I dont want a % or a point for point system. None of the skills that produce extra enmity have a number to them. Also a gladiator AA against an NM meant for L50 players wouldn't get past 15, The only WS that can be done to get above 200 is Riot Blade. And like I said, % does nothing but cause decimals and complication.

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It's from the same site I linked to earlier: http://kanican.livejournal.com/54373.html

And, yes, you're basically asking for a larger percentage base. If you'll note, moving Intimidate/Out of Sight to 33% effects instead of 10% effects has the exact same effect as your system.

ETA: And what's this about no WS other than Riot Blade going above 200? I have no idea wth you're talking about there. . .

You would have to play Gladiator VS an NM meant for L50 players to know what i'm talking about with damage. making intimidate/out of site 33% doesnt do the same thing. % has little impact on smaller numbers and major impact on large numbers. And like I said, unless they put #'s on the skills that livejournal isnt proving much anything in my eyes.

The system I imposed works great with actually using the traits and adding materia to become better at holding or avoiding enmity. I've already done tanking under the current without using intimidate and saw no change.

Until they put a number on the skills in-game, that list is speculation. What isnt speculation is that the current system is point for point and OOS/Intimidate is 10 not 10%. And if you read what I wrote at the bottom, the number can be changed. If it is indeed .75 per 1 point then the number can be raised. But I will wait for a dev or mod to tell me the patch notes were wrong or incomplete and that they forgot the % symbol next to all the enmity adjusters first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reika

You would have to play Gladiator VS an NM meant for L50 players to know what i'm talking about with damage. making intimidate/out of site 33% doesnt do the same thing. % has little impact on smaller numbers and major impact on large numbers. And like I said, unless they put #'s on the skills that livejournal isnt proving much anything in my eyes.

The system I imposed works great with actually using the traits and adding materia to become better at holding or avoiding enmity. I've already done tanking under the current without using intimidate and saw no change.

Until they put a number on the skills in-game, that list is speculation. What isnt speculation is that the current system is point for point and OOS/Intimidate is 10 not 10%.

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That list is damn-well tested. Go out and try their numbers for yourself.

Okay, under your system, a GLA does 50 attacks of 9 damage each, for a total of 50x9x40=18,000 enmity. A healer casts Cure II for 900 HP healed for 1x900x20=18,000 enmity. You really think that 450 damage should equal 900 healed in terms of enmity?

Under a system where healing is 1:1 and Intimidation and Out of Sight are 33% bonuses, a GLA does 50 attacks of 9 damage each, for 50x9x4/3=600 enmity. A Healer casts Cure II for 900 HP healed for 1x900x2/3=600 enmity. You really think that 450 damage and 900 healed should be the same enmity?

In case you didn't catch that, your system and a system with Intimidation and Out of Sight doing 33% instead of 10% are identical for all intents and purposes. I say again: All you're doing is buffing Intimidation/Out of Sight/materia. You're not actually changing how anything else works at all.

And you never answered my question about whatever it was you were saying about Riot Blade. . .

I'm sorry OP but your argument lost weight somewhere between "you would need to be 50 GLA against NMs to understand" and "that list is speculation".

I see this is just becoming a troll fest in this, especially by not reading the whole suggestion. The amount of time it takes for a gladiator to do 50 auto attacks, given that skills and other abilities delays auto attacks as well, is much greater than the time the time it takes a healer to cast more than 1 cure II. the number is at the bottom for 8x50 = 400 enmity. a cure II can generate more than that under the system I imposed. You were just blinded by the 400 damage I put in as an example. That is damage with 3000tp Riot Blade and raging strike/ferocity II against one monster. It obviously varies depending on what monster you're fighting, and a lot if you're trying to test it on weak monsters. But if you like things the way they are, just say you like things the way they are. this is my suggestion. Add your suggestions if you like without trying to say my 'argument' lost weight like I am arguing with anyone.

And yea... Provoke II + Disorient II w/ + '20%' enmity according to that journal would be 821 Enmity and Cure III for 900(.75 per point apparently) w/ -'13%' enmity according to that journal would be 558 enmity. If you try to start out a battle with Provoke II + Disorient II and then you let someone else cure III you before you cure yourself, you will lose enmity just like that. So I have to disagree with that list's numbers. Before Materia, PII+DII would = 752 and Cure III for 750 would have been 489 enmity, which obviously wasn't the case since PII and DII combo was never enough to stop the first cure III, or any Cure's that followed afterwords, from overpowering the tank, which is why people resorted to using cure II and having the tank heal him/her self first, since cures are the greatest enmity generators. Those numbers were tested a lot in 1.18 and were proven wrong a long time ago. It still holds true for 1.19.

I'm pretty sure Provoke II + Disorient II will hold aggro off of a single 900 HP cure. Seriously, go try it. . .

Figured I post this here in an enmity change topic than make a separate topic.

My concern with enmity mostly stems from Conjurer Curaga enmity.

Example: Party of eight, faces off against eight enemies at the same time.

Marauder does his double cone attack and Storm's Path, building up enmity on five separate targets based on the damage he's done, more enmity if he criticals, less enmity if he misses and such.

Conjurer runs up, does a single target heal on an ally. That ally is on the list of all enemies, conjurer has just built up his enmity toward all enemies based on that heal.

the problem example: Conjurer runs up, does an area heal which affects all allies in the target area. It never misses. There is no reduced potency for increased number of targets healed. Whether an ally is healed or not, the enmity generated is the same to the enemy. For each party member targeted, enmity is multiplied, not just against one enemy, but against all enemies pursuing the party. Even worse when a critical heal goes off against an ally that doesn't need it.

From an enemy perspective, it makes perfect sense for them to band together and go after the high powered healer that just healed everyone. I just wanted to put this example out there for the developers to consider when modifying hate. Whether this means I've set in motion a nerf in Curaga (i.e. more targets = less HP) or an enmity debuff (if you're not hurt, it doesn't count toward enmity), I don't know.

Or just the way it used to work: if you weren't damaged, you didn't get healed. . .