Enmity change suggestions

[Reika]

The last I heard, Enmity generation is on a point-for-point basis. Meaning:

If one heals for 1000 HP, they generate 1000 enmity. If they have Out Of Sight equipped, they generate 990 Enmity.

If one deals 400 Damage with a WS that takes all TP, they generate 400 Enmity. With Intimidation, it is 410 Enmity.

If one deals 8 damage with an auto attack, that would be 18 enmity..

Point for point enmity is a flawed way to do it and makes enmity generation adjusters worthless. My suggestion to fix this is:

Make each point generate 30 Enmity each, and Instead of enmity adjusting skills or items reducing the total enmity generated, it reduces or increases enmity for each point instead. so:

1000 HP would generate 1000x30 or 30000 Enmity. With out of sight, It would equate to 1000X20 enmity, or 20000 enmity.

400 DMG on an enemy would generate 400x30 enmity, or 12000 enmity. With Intimidation, it would be 400x40 enmity, or 16000 enmity. Putting it just under the enmity generation of an 1000 point heal.

Add materia:

1000 HP heal With out of sight and a Touch of Serenety materia (-4) would be 1000x16 or 16000 enmity

400 dmg with Intimidate and Touch of Rage (+5) would be 400x45 or 18000 enmity.

Mind you, a GLD would rarely do 400 damage in a fight against an NM, even with Riot Blade and full TP. More like:

350 DMG (Riot Blade) with Intimidate and Touch of Rage (+10) for 350X50 or 17500 Enmity, Plus the increased enmity from the attack itself (however much that is, See bottom).

Auto attacks under VS Hard NM at the damage of a sword (Cobalt Winglet) would be:

8dmg, 8x50 = 400 enmity for that much damage.

This suggestion assumes enmity is still point-for-point and enmity adjusters increase or decrease the total.. Increasing or decreasing the base amount of enmity each point generates can be the balancing point. However, make the number too low and it would become impossible to lose enmity, make the number too high and it will become impossible to hold enmity. Both errors would make skills and materia useless. So if you set the number at 15 then:

1000HP heal would be 1000X1 with Out of Sight and Touch of Serenity (-4) = 1000 Enmity
300Dmg attack = 300x35 = 10500 Enmity
10dmg Auto Attack would be 10x35= 350 Enmity
Too low = never lose enmity

Set the number to 60:

1000 HP heal X46 = 46000 Enmity
10dmg AA X80 = 800 Enmity
300dmg WS x80 = 24000 Enmity
Too high = never keep enmity

A tank could essentially hold agro with auto attack if the number is set too low, or never gain it if the number is too high. Go even lower or higher and there would be no need for Materia, since it would once again be useless, and the system will once again be flawed. I think 30 is a good starting number.


Also, Weapon Skills that have increase enmity such as Riot Blade and Storm's Path, and skills that just generate enmity such as Provoke and Disorient, Need to have a number to their enmity generation. Such as "Deals slashing damage and generates 15 extra enmity" or something to that nature. No one can gauge how much enmity they are truly generating if it just says "increases enmity"

[smokymcweed]

intresting point

[Viridiana]

Your numbers are flawed already in that healing is .75 enmity per 1 point healed. . .

[Reika]

Your numbers are flawed already in that healing is .75 enmity per 1 point healed. . .

Where is that posted at? All discussions in the past have pointed at enmity being point for point, heals or damage. Nothing has changed since then or have said to have changed.

[Viridiana]

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54094.html

[Reika]

I see. In any case, the proposed system is still greater than point for point or point for .75 point which is still stupid. And unless SE changes the txt on the skills to say % and the patch notes to say heals do .75 enmity per point, they are just 10 points and 1 point to me. i'm not going to trust player testing when patch notes and skill txt say otherwise, SE needs to fix those first.

[GreyJorildyn]

Making the scale larger isn't a solution either. It will just complicate things more. Right not the dev team has been unraveling all the convuluted crap in the game. Simplifying enmity as we go forward will he great, but it will take time.

[Reika]

It actually is the solution. you can only do so much with small numbers. a larger scale can be tweaked easier. A % system as suggested it is does very little for smaller numbers, while a set amount with modifiers to the number does good for both small damage/heals and large damage/heals. 10 damage +10% more is a mere 11 enmity. pretty worthless if it is %. 10 damage +10 more enmity = 20 enmity, which is still low and. 10 damage + 10 per point of damage = 100 enmity, which makes more sense in my eyes. Doing it with % also the calculations will end up with decimals and crap and there will have to be rounding up or down and that doesn't sound simpler to me.

[Viridiana]

So. . .

What you're actually saying is that you want Out of Sight/Intimidation to be 33% instead of the 10% it is now, and for a Touch of Serenity/Touch of Rage (5 point) to be 16% instead of the (untested) 5% that they are now? Basically, you're just asking for these effects to be about 3x more powerful, but your numbers are also punishing healers a lot more than the current setup. I can't say that I really see this being easier to tweak, either. Currently, tweaking seems to be done by changing the actual damage value, or making things like Provoke grant extra enmity. Under your system, if they change the damage potential of a move, it would have 3x as much impact on its threat generation as it does now.

Now for a giant post comparing the current system, your system, your system with current heal/aggro ratios, and a system with the above percentages for enmity moderation. . .

Current system:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442 enmity, with Intimidation equipped. He now has 486 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage, with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 450 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP, with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 750x.75x.9=~506 enmity, and has pulled aggro unless the Gladiator attacked for at least 19 damage.

Your system:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442x(30+10) enmity. He now has 17,680 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage. He now has 500x(30-10)=10,000 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x(30-10)=15,000 enmity.

Your system, proper heal/enmity ratio:

Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x.75x(30-10)=11,250 enmity or 750x((30x.75)-10)=9,375 enmity, depending on the order chosen.

A system in which Out of Sight/Intimidation are 33% instead of 10%:

Gladiator Provoke IIs for 442 enmity with Intimidation equipped. He now has 442x1.33=589 enmity.
DPS WSs for 500 damage with Out of Sight equipped. He now has 500x.66=333 enmity.
Healer heals for 750 HP. He now has 750x.75x.66=375 enmity

Now, then, under the current system, a Provoke II won't hold aggro off of a 750 HP heal, which seems fine to me. Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.93:1.04. Note that they're all fairly clumped together. I rather like this, since it means your DPS can't just go all-out as soon as a Provoke fires off, and your healers have to be careful about cure bombing.

Next up is your system. Doing a little more math, if your Gladiator hit for 58 damage, he'd have 20,000 enmity. That would allow the DPS to fire off another 500 damage WS without pulling aggro. Do you really think Provoke II plus 58 damage should equal 1,000 damage? Your Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.85. Now, your DPS can go all-out as soon as they see a Provoke land without any fear of ever pulling aggro. Your healer can heal for 884 without fear, just after Provoke II.

Your system with the proper heal/enmity ratio is even more favorable to healers. New Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.64(.53 for the lower value). Yeah. . . a healer shouldn't be able to heal for 1,000 after just a Provoke II.

Current system, but 33% instead of 10% comes next. Tank to DPS to Healer ratio is 1:.57:.64. . . just like your system corrected for heal/enmity ratio. Same comments apply, a healer shouldn't be able to heal for 1,000 HP just because the tank used Provoke II.

I'm not seeing anything in your system that's better than the current system. In fact, I'd say your system by itself does enough to make the Touch of X materia pointless. Each mage being able to heal for nearly 1k HP from a Provoke sounds to me like there will never be aggro issues, and that's sans materia of any sort. Feel free to prove me wrong, though. It's been too long since I've had excuse to do math.

[Reika]

Where do you get that number for provoke II, and no I dont want a % or a point for point system. None of the skills that produce extra enmity have a number to them. Also a gladiator AA against an NM meant for L50 players wouldn't get past 15, The only WS that can be done to get above 200 is Riot Blade. And like I said, % does nothing but cause decimals and complication.