My BLM DPS seems lower than it should be

Hello all. So, I main a black mage, and I'm trying to get as good as I can with it, but, despite all my efforts, I seem to be doing only 1400 dps on the Stone, Sky, Sea totems, compared to BLMs of similar ilvls (I'm at 211 right now) doing around 1600. Granted, I can't guarantee they're not using food and int pots, despite at least one saying they're not.

Here's what I currently do for a rotation, minus pots:
Opener: Sharp + Ley, F3, RS + Enoch, F1, F4x3, F3, F4x2, B3, T1, B4
Rotation: F3, F4x2, F1, F4x2, (procs if enochian time allows), B3, T1 (T3 if on proc), B4

Can anyone see any red flags in what I'm doing? I feel like even if the opening is off, it shouldn't be dropping my DPS by almost 200 over 3 minutes, and as far as I can tell, the regular rotation is pretty standard.

Thanks!

I pretty much do the same rotation however in the opener, I do Fire IV x3, the FS proc, Convert, another Fire IV x3, etc.

So, I do 6 fire IV where you only do 5. So that's certainly something that is a dps loss. As for the rest, I don't know. So far I've cleared everything in Stone, Sea, Sky just fine so I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Oh, right, my bad. When convert is up I do indeed do the 6x opener. 4xF4, F3 proc, convert, 2xF4.

Tis possible that the other BLMs are taking more adventage of the Thunderstorm procs too.
If you get Thunderstorm in you AF3 window, you can use it instead of a F4.

For example:
Lets say you are on UI3 in the middle of your rotation:
F3 > F4x3 > F1 was your plan
but then Thunderstorm proc happened at the first F4
you would go:
F3 > F4x2 > T3 > F1.
Time wise it is the same, so you wouldn't be risking losing AF3, the only tricky part is that you still have MP so be careful with your Enochian timing :v

(Note that, Thunder 3 proc needs 9 seconds to actually beat an AF3 F4 damage wise, so if you get it consecutively, try not to recast it on the same target unless its under 15 seconds, if you refresh the Thunder DoT before then, you are actually having a DPS loss in comparison to simply casting F4s).

Alright, so since T3's ability to do more damage is based on how long it ticks for, how is that affected by thunder ticks almost always being up anyways? Usually if a T3 proc comes up during my AF phase, I still have time remaining on my thunder ticks, so besides the full damage up front from thundercloud, how is the 9 seconds of ticks from it adding damage?

Thundercloud makes your thunder spells do their initial damage plus all their DoT at once, and then you still get the actual DoT. So for Thunder III, you get 70 initial, plus 8 ticks of 40 all at once, for a total initial hit of 390. Then, you get 8 ticks at 40 potency, for another 320 if it lasts the whole duration. A full duration Thundercloud III is 710 potency. But if you only get three ticks of it, it's the 390 initial hit plus 120 total DoT, or 510. This is more than the potency of an Astral Fire III buffed Fire IV, so as long as you get three ticks out of it, it's worth dropping Fire IV in favor of Thundercloud III.

Since all thunder spells tick for the same amount, you won't effectively increase the damage unless reapplying thunder would extend the duration by at least nine seconds.

Do remember that even if nine seconds is the magical number, the later the better for TC usage is the way to go, if there's already any kind of Thunder ticking. T1/TC - 4 ticks - TC is more DPS than T1/TC - 3 ticks - TC even if the TC was technically better than single F4.

One thing is, there's enough time for an extra T3P in your openers if you start with B3-T1.
There's enough time to go:
B3-T1-Ley-Sharp-F3-RS-Eno-F4-F4-F1-F4-F4-F3P-T3P-Convert-F4-Swift-F4-B3-T1/B1 and still refresh enochian (at least with 850 SS).
You can jam the F4's together if you want, but it doesn't help get any more in there so doing it this way gives you more leeway to dodge mechanics without worrying about dropping AF3 or Enochian. At least not until you have enough MP and SS to get 5 in a row as F4x2+F1+F4x2 is better than just F4x4.

Under each Enochian, at 850 SS, there's always enough time for an extra Proc, sometimes two and you'll get to full MP and new Enochian right as you finish your third Enochian rotation with the extra time spent on Procs. (instead of a few seconds of underlap).

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Snip

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This is inaccurate. Assuming you're under Enochian, a TC with 3 ticks would equal 535.5 potency. A Fire IV would equal 529.2 potency. Yes, that TC is slightly more potent than the F4. But you're re not taking into consideration the previous T1 and the next T1. If you cast T1 in UI like normal for your filler, its potency will equal 283.5 potency. That's ticking 6 times. If you then use TC on say your second F4, you now cut that initial T1 down to 115.5 potency, plus refreshed Thunder to 24 seconds. Which means after you cast your B3, you still have 16 sec left on Thunder. Now what do you do as a filler? Thunder? Well then, your your 745.5 potent TC just became 493.5 potency which is lower than Fire IV. You could use a B1 instead and get the full potency out of TC, but unless you get another TC, it will fall off during your next rotation. My only point is, it's not that simple to just say TC is better than F4, cause that's not always the case.

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

SNIP.

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It's always better than no spell though. If you have extra time, which I always seem to, there never seems to be a bad time to take the proc.
The only time it will be iffy, is if you are in the last Enochian phase, and by then it doesn't matter anyway. If you're leaving out an F4, which I used to advocate for, it's debatable when to pull the trigger on the T3P. But now with the insane spell speed, you may as well just take the free damage.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

It's always better than no spell though. If you have extra time, which I always seem to, there never seems to be a bad time to take the proc.
The only time it will be iffy, is if you are in the last Enochian phase, and by then it doesn't matter anyway. If you're leaving out an F4, which I used to advocate for, it's debatable when to pull the trigger on the T3P. But now with the insane spell speed, you may as well just take the free damage.

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Yes, but wasn't talking necessarily about fitting in an extra spell. the discussion was either/or and that if it ticks at least 3 times, than its better to use TC instead of Fire IV which is incorrect in most cases. Movement, is obviously the exception

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Originally Posted by Poponori

Hello all.
Thanks!

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I prefer this opener and seem to get the best results for me:

With a Firestarter Proc: -> Quelling, Sharp, LL, F1, RS, F3, F4, F4, F1, F4, F4, F3 Proc, Convert, F4, SC F4, B3, T1, B4, F3. (needs high SS to fit in the T1 otherwise leave it out)
Without a Firestarter Proc: -> Quelling, Sharp, LL, F1, RS, F3, F4, F4, F1, F4, F4, SC Flare, Convert, F4, B3, T1, B4, F3.

Then you pretty much just continue your 2X F4, F1, 2X F4 while fitting in TC Procs where you can. Preferably during Umbral @ below 12s on the Dot.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I prefer this opener and seem to get the best results for me:

With a Firestarter Proc: -> Quelling, Sharp, LL, F1, RS, F3, F4, F4, F1, F4, F4, F3 Proc, Convert, F4, SC F4, B3, T1, B4, F3. (needs high SS to fit in the T1 otherwise leave it out)
Without a Firestarter Proc: -> Quelling, Sharp, LL, F1, RS, F3, F4, F4, F1, F4, F4, SC Flare, Convert, F4, B3, T1, B4, F3.

Then you pretty much just continue your 2X F4, F1, 2X F4 while fitting in TC Procs where you can. Preferably during Umbral @ below 12s on the Dot.

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There is a small change you can do to make better use of your oGCDs in that opener where you get the second Firestarter proc. It will net you close to 8 PPS higher. Potency wise, its the exact same, but faster.

Quelling, Sharp, LL, F1, RS, F3, F4, F4, F1, F4, F3 Proc, Swiftcast, F4, Convert, F4, F4, B3, T1, B4, F3.

In this scenario, you get the proc and do 1 Fire IV instead of two. Then you use your Firestarter and can weave swiftcast under that, with no delay. Then F4, and since that is swiftcasted, you can now convert under that with no delay. You're basically ommiting the .5 second delay that you have on your Swift+F4.

Just a suggestion.

There is also a better opener now with the changes to BLM in 3.2 and its a significant increase.

I am currently updating my guide which has all the information that any of you may seek, including potency breakdowns on all of the openers. I'm trying to spread the work as much as I can about this new BLM guide.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ck_mage_guide/

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

SNIP
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ck_mage_guide/

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I like the guide, but your spread sheet doesn't have the Blizz3 opener potency in it but your guide says potency wise it's the worst.
But I don't see how that's possible as while you lost 50% on the F3, you gain way more than that from the T3 and the rest of the spells are the same.

Though I only ever use T1 and weave the T3P that inevitably comes up after the F1 that's cast while still under Sharp.
So in essence, most of the time I get an extra T3P worth of potency and still refresh enochian on time.

While it takes longer to get out of Enochian 30 to Enochian 25, you make up for it by not having to wait for your recast of Enochian (not I'm not talking about refresh); with your current setup you have a a few second gap between finishing your 3rd Enochian and being able to recast it, even accounting for movement. And in the NOT opener, it's a no-brainer as you have so much extra Enochian time, you may as well be casting any bonus T3Ps under Enochian.
Also you never have to worry about having the PIE buff or food or PIE materia. You can set those all to int/crit/det/SS as applicable.
Until you get enough PIE to cast an extra F4, I don't see a net benefit as a T3P is always more potent than nothing.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Until you get enough PIE to cast an extra F4, I don't see a net benefit as a T3P is always more potent than nothing.

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What is this "nothing" you speak of T3P repping? Outside of the F3 opener possibly making you stand there waiting for an MP tick, or heavy movement, there is never a time where you must cast nothing.

If Thundercloud extends the existing thunder by at least 9 seconds, it's worth it. The complication lies in the renewed thunder subsuming a substantial portion of the spell's damage; in this case, a requirement for increased damage is that the new one is not overwritten until at least 9 seconds after the original effect would have worn off.

http://www.phoenixdown.us/uploads/ThunderGuide.png
Here's where it gets complicated. If you have an existing thunder effect, you need to account for when during its duration you used Thundercloud III. If there were 15 seconds left, then casting another thunder any time before that one wears off would ultimately be a damage loss. The later in the original Thunder you used Thundercloud, the earlier during the renewed duration you can apply a filler Thunder and still come out ahead.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

I like the guide, but your spread sheet doesn't have the Blizz3 opener potency in it but your guide says potency wise it's the worst.
But I don't see how that's possible as while you lost 50% on the F3, you gain way more than that from the T3 and the rest of the spells are the same.

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I am currently working on updating a lot of the information in the guide after the new patch. The whole 3.0 section is in rework, and I'm currently working on the Blizzard III openers, and will be added to the spreadsheet as soon as I'm finished. But basically it might have more potency, but I'm not calculating total potency. Its about Potency Per Second. The Blizz openers are inherently longer, so while the potency may be higher, the PPS is ultimately lower. But I'm updating these openers with a higher spell speed and of course, the changes to AF and UI. This will not be a guide thats a once and done. I'm not going anywhere and I plan on managing this well into the future. So any and all feedback is welcome. I appreciate the input from all the BLMs in this community. Its a great community and everyone seems eager to help and thats fantastic, and I'm only trying to build on that and make it stronger. I will never hide any information and will be completely subjective to any and all ideas. My hope is that this becomes our guide and not "my" guide.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

Until you get enough PIE to cast an extra F4, I don't see a net benefit as a T3P is always more potent than nothing.

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Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use a T3P if you have one. If you can do Fire IV x 2 > Fire > Fire IV x 2 > T3P, thats great. Of course. I'm talking about replacing a Fire IV with a TC and when the best time to do it is. We have the spell speed now to be able to fit an extra spell in, but I'm talking about what is sufficient clipping to be a damage increase instead of a loss

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Here's where it gets complicated. If you have an existing thunder effect, you need to account for when during its duration you used Thundercloud III. If there were 15 seconds left, then casting another thunder any time before that one wears off would ultimately be a damage loss. The later in the original Thunder you used Thundercloud, the earlier during the renewed duration you can apply a filler Thunder and still come out ahead.

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We might be on the same page but I misunderstood the way you worded your original phrasing. A 535.5 Potent TC is better than a 529.2 Potent Fire IV. What I was saying is that it depends on when you use the TC. You have a total of 4 Fire IVs in a single rotation. Its not a benefit to replace any of those Fire IVs with a TC which is what I thought you were saying.

Bottom line is, there are dozens of possibilities. With the RNG of how many TC you could or don't get makes it impossible to map out every situation. I've had TC hit and immediately tick and give me another 3 times in a row. Each time you clip a TC, you are losing potency which could end up making the TC less potent than a Fire IV. And knowing exactly the best time to pull the trigger is exactly what ppl want to know.

Here's some notepad math I did a month back about TC usage and forcing a T1 in, like someone asked in that thread.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

What is this "nothing" you speak of T3P repping? Outside of the F3 opener possibly making you stand there waiting for an MP tick, or heavy movement, there is never a time where you must cast nothing.

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I mean when you're waiting for Enochian to be back up to cast. Without casting an extra spell in the opener and in the second Enochian, you blow through your spells too fast and are left half way through your MP in AF3 when Enochian comes back up. A T3P is always more potent than an F1. F1 isn't "nothing" but T3P is always a potency increase over F1.
While technically T3P is worse than an F4 if you clip it too much, with the current spell speed there's never an excuse to not pull the trigger on it in AF3+Enochian because you will be left without Enochian or MP without casting extra procs and you won't lose any F4s anyway.

So while it can be a potency per second loss at that point in your rotation, if you expand it out to 90 seconds it's a potency per 90 seconds increase.
Even more so in your second cast of Enochian as I tend to get into my fourth Enochian by the time Enochian is back up.