Beast Tribes of Eorzea discussion (Potential Spoilers)

The beast tribes and their associated storylines have always been a point of significant interest for me throughout the course of my time playing the game. Having finally run most of Alexander recently, I got to thinking about the influence the various tribes have on Eorzea, the level of technology each possesses, and the back story and lore associated with each one.
Given that most of my knowledge is picked up from time playing the game, and that I may have forgotten significant details over time, I'd be interested to hear a number of aspects about each tribe from anyone willing to provide lore or their opinion on any of the following subjects;

• How would you order each tribe based on their level of advancement? (particularly technological advancement, or cultural observations/interactions with the humanoid races)
• What is the origin of each tribe's respective primal, if any?
• If applicable; Where does each tribe originate, to our knowledge?

It seems like the Vath are the most advanced since they use firearms (though primitive) and are interacting with man, goblins, and dragons on a peaceful trade prospect. All the other beast tribes seem quite secluded and don't rely on anything more advanced than simple magicks and simple weapons.

I disagree that the gnath/vath are the most advanced simply because they use firearms - every other aspect of their culture is primitive (mostly because the majority of their society lives as a hive mind, as appropriate for an insect-hybrid race).

Personally I think goblins would probably be the most advanced - they've mastered cybernetics and powered propulsion, even going so far as reverse engineering Garlean magitek weapons and refitting them for their own use (although granted a lot of their knowledge is possibly just stolen from Sharlayan documents and tomes left behind in the colony as a result of the Exodus - after all this is how the Illuminati even knew how to summon Alexander). But still, even being able to comprehend Sharlayan knowledge and adapt it, and build a society around it, for good or for ill, is no small feat.

The other beast tribes show some level of sophistication (the Ixal have primitive balloon/lighter-than-air flight, the kobolds and amalj'aa both are highly adept with metallurgy, although the former are also accomplished miners as well, even the primitive vanu are very creative when it comes to adapting what they have to suit their needs, but none seem to be able to match the goblins in technological sophistication.

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Originally Posted by Veezora

• How would you order each tribe based on their level of advancement? (particularly technological advancement, or cultural observations/interactions with the humanoid races)
• What is the origin of each tribe's respective primal, if any?
• If applicable; Where does each tribe originate, to our knowledge?

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In order, from a purely technological standpoint:

Tech Advancement:
1. Goblins
2. Ixal
3. Kobolds
4. Gnath (Vath)
... the rest don't use much more than basic smithing techniques, if that.

Primal Origins:
1. Ifrit (Amal'jaa): unknown. Presumably some kind of desert spirit, I think?
2. Titan (Kobolds): unknown. Likely a father figure from myth, based on his quotes and personality.
3. Garuda (Ixal): From the Final Fantasy Wiki: "Garuda [is] the Primal worshiped by the Ixal, and is known as the Empress of Birds. It is said that in past ages, Garuda slew the malevolent Lord of Snakes to end his foul attempt to bind the world's creatures to the earth. Though birds became free to roam the skies, Garuda was terribly wounded by the battle and was forced to feast upon the snake's carcass to recover her energies, said to have since then a taste for the flesh of land-bound mortals."
4. Good King Moggle Mog XII (Moogles): based on a chieftain that led some moogles away from the Churning Mists in time immemorial.
5. Leviathan (Sahagin): unknown. Seems to be a manifestation of their rage, but that's all we have.
6. Ramuh (Sylphs): based on "the old man in the wood," a forest-dwelling hermit sage. (Harsh behavior is likely due to the summoning process, which tends to corrupt the primal to its worst possible interpretation - see "Good King Moggle Mog XII is essentially a genocidal tyrant." That said, easily the most agreeable non-channeled primal.)
7. Ravana (Gnath): based on a great warrior of myth, I believe. Story is somewhat elaborated on in the quest to unlock Ravana EX. (Popular hypothesis is that he's based on Phantom Ray, the first boss of the Fractal Continuum, but beyond the two sharing a skeleton there's nothing hinting at this.)
8. Bismarck (Vanu Vanu): based on a being from Vanu Vanu creation myth. Bismarck was the only white one of His black brethren, who killed Him in jealousy. Taking pity on Bismarck, the Gods resurrected Him and gave Him the ability to fly, and Bismarck took with Him into the sky the Sea of Clouds. (The Bismarck encountered in-game, obviously, is not this Bismarck.)
9. Alexander (Goblins): detailed in the Alexander raids.

Origins:
Amal'jaa: unknown.
Kobolds: unknown.
Ixal: genetically degraded Iksalion from Azys Lla. (They even mention it in some text as "Ayatlan," a paradise, and one Ixal in the Ehcatl Nine camp even has new dialogue once you've been there. A panel in the Fractal Continuum confirms this.)
Moogles: unknown.
Sahagin: unknown.
Sylphs: unknown.
Gnath: unknown. (If the above "Ravana is based on Phantom Ray" is true, they too could be an Allagan-engineered race. A hive mind would certainly be useful for issuing commands...)
Vanu Vanu: unknown. (Hypothesized to be an Allagan creation due to them guarding the key to Azys Lla and treating it like a sacred object... until Bismarck ate it.)
Goblins: unknown.

In call cases of "unknown," it's possible (if not likely) they're simply a naturally-occurring species.

I think the Sahagin may be a lot more advanced than they present mostly because we're not actually seeing their civilisation, just the emergency spawning grounds in Western La Noscea they had to throw together after the Calamity, and supposedly they have an entire city at the bottom of the ocean.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

I think the Sahagin may be a lot more advanced than they present mostly because we're not actually seeing their civilisation, just the emergency spawning grounds in Western La Noscea they had to throw together after the Calamity, and supposedly they have an entire city at the bottom of the ocean.

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If, and it's a big if, we ever actually do get an underwater expansion, I'd love to be able to see the Sahagin city and the Indigo Matriach.

I'd say Goblins, are they ever specifically referred to as Beast Tribes? They seem quite integrated into Eorzea society (you never see any of Ul'dah's forces bothering Mutamix for example, and the Illuminati aren't really a beast tribe either, they've had plenty of pursuits other than summoning Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Tech Advancement:
1. Goblins
2. Ixal
3. Kobolds
4. Gnath (Vath)
... the rest don't use much more than basic smithing techniques, if that.

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Swap Ixali and Kobolds.

As a whole, the Ixali are fairly primitive; Their airship technology is dependent on Garuda, granted the Ehcatl Nine are much more technologically capable, but they're an exception, not the rule. I seem to recall something about the Ixali also not actually making their own weaponry, rather they steal it. I think this was in explanation to why their mages have staffs with Twelve symbols on... They get points for building hot air balloons and having Garuda bless them with the means to move them, but they're not that smart overall.

Meanwhile, the Kobold seem much closer to Goblins in terms of technology after Pharos (Hard), they have advanced tunneling technology, are able to incubate bombs, and seemingly have build mecha suits... Even if we want to count the Ehcatl Nines achievements, they didn't achieve their goals alone... I'd actually be incline to put the Gnath above Ixali... They at least make their own boomsticks and are just as ingenious, anti-dragon smoke and Garuda powered balloons are at the very least equal, if my brain isn't making up the whole "Ixali scavenge weaponry rather than making their own" thing, then I'd certainly put the Gnath above them.

EDIT:

Also, lets not forget about the Qiqirn and Mamool Ja. Don't have much on either, though a book in Gubal hints at some Mamool Ja history.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Swap Ixali and Kobolds.

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Honestly, I'd say they're about neck and neck.

Some kobolds do have advanced tunneling machines, bomb incubators, mechas, etc. This is true. However, they are the top end of kobolds - it's kind of an inversion of the Ehcatl Nine having the best tech of all ixal. Remember, the 789th Order we help is the bottom of the barrel - they have nothing but ruddy pickaxes and defective bombs to work with. The kobolds that usually antagonize us are very high in the food chain - 75+, I think, so they all have access to some high-end kobold tech.

As a whole, kobold tech isn't remarkable. When you get to the high-end Orders with stuff like motorized drills, earth borers, strip mines, etc. naturally they are going to have fancy tech like that, but most don't. We just don't see those ones.

In terms of overall tech advancement, I'd place them about equal, just in opposite directions.

Kobold out right have better tech, the 789th Order merely highlights an issue with resources. The Kobold are such a vast tribe that they can't all be outfitted with the best equipment. The only real technological marvel Ixali have are Primal-powered balloons, the Ehcatl Nine may have made a "revolutionary" airship, but they're an isolated group shunned by the main body. They only even built that airship with our help and the help of Tataramu, although if we say that we can probably ignore most Goblin advancements.

There is a very clear difference in advancement between the two tribes though. The Ixali were ready to stop the Ehcatl Nine, they're actively against technological advancement, they almost strike me as Amish in that regard. Meanwhile, I'd imagine the Kobold would likely adopt any advancement the 789th Order could come up with in the end. Their society values productivity, the 789th Order are lazy and that's why they have nothing. If they started contributing, they'd move up in the world and gain access to more advanced machinery.

If we're to discredit Kobold machinery because it's not mass produced... Well, nor are Ixali balloons, and the Ehcatl Nine built one airship, and that's all the Ixali have going on in terms of technology... Kobold have far more going on with bomb incubation, metallurgy, advanced tunneling methods and networks, even mecha.

I think people are underestimating the Vath quite a bit here. Yes, their society as we see it now is fairly primitive but that it because they have only recently broken free from the Onemind and struck out on their own. They're still discovering themselves.

Judging from the daily quests they are extremely good at assimilating cultures and learning from them. They may not be advanced right now but they have the potential for extremely rapid development once they have some stability.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

In order, from a purely technological standpoint:

Tech Advancement:
1. Goblins
2. Ixal
3. Kobolds
4. Gnath (Vath)
... the rest don't use much more than basic smithing techniques, if that.

Primal Origins:
1. Ifrit (Amal'jaa): unknown. Presumably some kind of desert spirit, I think?
2. Titan (Kobolds): unknown. Likely a father figure from myth, based on his quotes and personality.
3. Garuda (Ixal): From the Final Fantasy Wiki: "Garuda [is] the Primal worshiped by the Ixal, and is known as the Empress of Birds. It is said that in past ages, Garuda slew the malevolent Lord of Snakes to end his foul attempt to bind the world's creatures to the earth. Though birds became free to roam the skies, Garuda was terribly wounded by the battle and was forced to feast upon the snake's carcass to recover her energies, said to have since then a taste for the flesh of land-bound mortals."
4. Good King Moggle Mog XII (Moogles): based on a chieftain that led some moogles away from the Churning Mists in time immemorial.
5. Leviathan (Sahagin): unknown. Seems to be a manifestation of their rage, but that's all we have.
6. Ramuh (Sylphs): based on "the old man in the wood," a forest-dwelling hermit sage. (Harsh behavior is likely due to the summoning process, which tends to corrupt the primal to its worst possible interpretation - see "Good King Moggle Mog XII is essentially a genocidal tyrant." That said, easily the most agreeable non-channeled primal.)
7. Ravana (Gnath): based on a great warrior of myth, I believe. Story is somewhat elaborated on in the quest to unlock Ravana EX. (Popular hypothesis is that he's based on Phantom Ray, the first boss of the Fractal Continuum, but beyond the two sharing a skeleton there's nothing hinting at this.)
8. Bismarck (Vanu Vanu): based on a being from Vanu Vanu creation myth. Bismarck was the only white one of His black brethren, who killed Him in jealousy. Taking pity on Bismarck, the Gods resurrected Him and gave Him the ability to fly, and Bismarck took with Him into the sky the Sea of Clouds. (The Bismarck encountered in-game, obviously, is not this Bismarck.)
9. Alexander (Goblins): detailed in the Alexander raids.

Origins:
Amal'jaa: unknown.
Kobolds: unknown.
Ixal: genetically degraded Iksalion from Azys Lla. (They even mention it in some text as "Ayatlan," a paradise, and one Ixal in the Ehcatl Nine camp even has new dialogue once you've been there. A panel in the Fractal Continuum confirms this.)
Moogles: unknown.
Sahagin: unknown.
Sylphs: unknown.
Gnath: unknown. (If the above "Ravana is based on Phantom Ray" is true, they too could be an Allagan-engineered race. A hive mind would certainly be useful for issuing commands...)
Vanu Vanu: unknown. (Hypothesized to be an Allagan creation due to them guarding the key to Azys Lla and treating it like a sacred object... until Bismarck ate it.)
Goblins: unknown.

In call cases of "unknown," it's possible (if not likely) they're simply a naturally-occurring species.

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But Cilia now that we have confirmation of the Ixali's orginis, we cannot, at least speculate, the origins of Garuda as well?

Could have being an Ixal or an Allagan, that wanted to free them and so beacuse their leader on their path to the promise land. ( Moises story reference )

I just did the Titan quest, and I must say the Kobolds changed my ideas about Limsa Lominsa, at least. They royally screwed up in keeping a treaty with the Kobolds, and when they summoned Titan in retaliation we barely got a "woopsie!" out of the leader. I know it's a town of pirates, but c'mon... They brought everything on themselves and made life way worse for the Kobolds, and made them enemies, for some petty crap...

Did make me like the Kobolds better, though I had to kill quite a few.

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Originally Posted by Zadocfish

I just did the Titan quest, and I must say the Kobolds changed my ideas about Limsa Lominsa, at least. They royally screwed up in keeping a treaty with the Kobolds, and when they summoned Titan in retaliation we barely got a "woopsie!" out of the leader. I know it's a town of pirates, but c'mon... They brought everything on themselves and made life way worse for the Kobolds, and made them enemies, for some petty crap...

Did make me like the Kobolds better, though I had to kill quite a few.

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Y'shtola's word bashing of the Admiral was quite deserved. "Beastmen are people too" ideals seem to don't hold well in the popular concensus in the city-states.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

When you get to the high-end Orders.

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Is that not the case with most ARR beast tribes? In many cases we have only seen the low rank and outposts. So anyone from the Amal'jaa, Kobolds, Sahagin could have much more advanced technology then we have seen?

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Originally Posted by Unittj

Y'shtola's word bashing of the Admiral was quite deserved. "Beastmen are people too" ideals seem to don't hold well in the popular concensus in the city-states.

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It varies quite a bit. Its worth noting that a number of the beast tribes (Untempered Sylphs, Qiqirn and Goblins) seem to be treated and respected fine. The conflict tends to be born out of the same reason conflict is often born, disagreement over resources when it isn't directly primal related. Of course that isn't universal but trade and communication between the citystates and the Beast tribes has been common enough in the past. The Ashcrown Concortium was build on such trade. Even now the Kobald's will still deal indirectly with elements from the Limsa.

The thing with primals though is realistically the primal will enevitably harm the summoning tribe just through the insatiable hunger for Aether and the influence it has on their culture. You see with the Amal'jaa the traditional honor based culture eroding as they switch to a culture of dependency and feeling Ifrit Aether and worshipers. Likewise, the tempering has turned the Sylph's cruel and hateful, leading to them poisoning their own forests just to keep everyone out.

Adding to the Kobold thing above, now that I've reached THAT part of the story: If the dragons count as a beast race against Ishgard, I would side with them 100%. I want to see that place full of stuck-up, self-righteous barbarian jackasses burn.

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Originally Posted by AdamZ

So anyone from the Amal'jaa, Kobolds, Sahagin could have much more advanced technology then we have seen?

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Kobolds maybe. We're shown that the leader of the 13th order has all kidns advanced alchemy stuff we destroy. So that's possible.

Amal'Jaa I doubt it. They are shown to use largely primitive technology and rely almost entirely on ifrit's magical power.

Sahagin I doubt it as well. Mostly because they live under water and the daily quests show that they are conscripting other races for their level of tech.

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Originally Posted by Zadocfish

Adding to the Kobold thing above, now that I've reached THAT part of the story: If the dragons count as a beast race against Ishgard, I would side with them 100%. I want to see that place full of stuck-up, self-righteous barbarian jackasses burn.

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I wont spoil it but the Dragons aren't really a beast tribe. Moreover the conflict between the two groups is far more complicated than most of the conflicts the city states have with the beast tribes.

I don't know about thecnology and knowledge but I think, from the enemys beast tribe, Kobolds is the more "civilized" tribe, the armorer quest hint about they trading goods whit limsa in the past. Silphys are pacific, but they don't look 'civilized", what I remeber from de MSQ is they like to make pranks whit the people living in the East Shrould, and even in the daily quest the bad silphy looks dumb.
The Ixial and the Amal'Jaa looks more savage, and less inclined to have a pacific relationship whit the city state. In both tribes you have a little faction of them willing to acept a pacific approach.
I did little in the Sahagin beast tribe, but from the start of the quest they look likes the more diverse beast tribe, they all server the Indigo Matriach, and have the goal of breeding they offrispring, but every "father" choose the way they will live.
Gnath is the less "civilized", because of the One mind is hard for them to be have a pacific realtionship whit Ishigard, and from the Ravana quest line, the One mind looks like a kind of expansionist king.
Vanu we have two factions willing to have a pacific relationship, but the most powerful faction have a agressive posture against Ishigard.
TL;DR Kobolds looks like the more "civilized" imo.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I wont spoil it but the Dragons aren't really a beast tribe. Moreover the conflict between the two groups is far more complicated than most of the conflicts the city states have with the beast tribes.

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To be fair what gets classified as a Beast Tribe seems completely arbitrary. Mamool Ja are Beastmen but Au Ra aren't, Sylphs are a Beast Tribe but not Lalafell, etc.

Technology wise the Ixal have a fair amount of skill. Eorzean Airships are based on Ixali designs. The Ixali are also very much driven by their primal, much the same as the Amal'jaa. Its worth remembering that all the beast tribes traded with the Ashcrown Consortium prior to when they started summoning Primals and the Amal'jaa were even allies with Ul'dah during their war with Sil'dih, fighting alongside Ul'dah's soldiers.

The Amal'jaa aren't big engineers but they are skilled Metallurgists and Smiths and their mystics seem pretty competent, even working on attempted methods of removing tempering. Interestingly the friendly Amal'jaa are actually closer to the original form of Amal'jaa culture and they see the worship of Ifrit perverting it by fueling dependence on a god at the cost of their code of honor.

As for the Sahagin we really haven't seen a great deal of them. We know they harness seabeasts as warmachines as we see from several quests and their 'artillery'. Culturally though they seem to be a rather developed civilization based around their queen. They also seem like they are open to peaceful coexistence. The current conflict is born out of a fight over resources that has grown personal from terrible losses on both sides fuelling hatred of each other.

Really all the Beast tribes are rather well developed for the environment they live in. Even the Sylphs show a competence in harnessing the natural elements and creatures in the forest and adapting it for their use and they are very talented at magic, particularly illusionism to the point that even a basic physical examination will not reveal that they are infact Sylphs.

II think gigants and dragons (if they count) are the most primitive beast-tribes.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

To be fair what gets classified as a Beast Tribe seems completely arbitrary. Mamool Ja are Beastmen but Au Ra aren't, Sylphs are a Beast Tribe but not Lalafell, etc.

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If I'm correct, in 1.0 all the playable races were under the umbrella term "Human", while in 2.0 its essentially the same but changed to "Spoken" or some such. Regardless the 5 (now 6) races all have enough similarities with each other and common enough in how they percieve the world to not percieve each other as something of a completely different species. As well the 6 also seems to have some degree of interbreedability available (Hyur/Elezen shown with Hilda, and if I remember right the Miqo'te girl that sometimes shows up in Idylshire is actually half-Miqo'te half-Lalafell.) At the very least while it isn't always the most well looked upon its easier to accept then, say, Roegadyn/Amal'jaa.

And of course atleast as far as Au Ra goes, the Ishgardians probably almost did classify them as a Beast Tribe/put them under the Dragon Beast Tribe, to be exterminated.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

That is a miqote child, is not half lalafell.

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I just remember the last time I saw any talk bout the kid was some speculation that she mighta been half-lalafell. Either way its probably possible.

Another thing to point out, in XI apparently the Mithra and Galka had the lowest Charismatic score of the playable characters, in part because they looked a bit more like the Beast Tribes (as they certianly looked a bit more beastly then our Miqo'te and Roegadyns.)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

If I'm correct, in 1.0 all the playable races were under the umbrella term "Human", while in 2.0 its essentially the same but changed to "Spoken" or some such. Regardless the 5 (now 6) races all have enough similarities with each other and common enough in how they percieve the world to not percieve each other as something of a completely different species. As well the 6 also seems to have some degree of interbreedability available (Hyur/Elezen shown with Hilda, and if I remember right the Miqo'te girl that sometimes shows up in Idylshire is actually half-Miqo'te half-Lalafell.) At the very least while it isn't always the most well looked upon its easier to accept then, say, Roegadyn/Amal'jaa.

And of course atleast as far as Au Ra goes, the Ishgardians probably almost did classify them as a Beast Tribe/put them under the Dragon Beast Tribe, to be exterminated.

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That is a miqote child, is not half lalafell.