Are DRK's looked down upon?

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03-04-2016, 08:46 AM
Kryptoghost

Are DRK's looked down upon?

Had a Warrior in vanilla. Thinking about taking a DRK to 60 after my SCH. are DRK's overlooked in group finders and statics? I feel like people consider them underwhelming.
03-04-2016, 09:30 AM
RecklessLion

Hmm I'm not sure I know the real complaint they lack any real utility unlike pld and war.
03-04-2016, 09:47 AM
Syzygian

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Hmm I'm not sure I know the real complaint they lack any real utility unlike pld and war.

This is true only as an OT. DRK MT utility is pretty darn good considering its uptime and the fact that it makes no sacrifices for it.
03-04-2016, 10:02 AM
Galgarion

They had a reputation for being the derp tank at the start of the expansion, but once the dedicated players figured out how to make 'em sing, regard for them rose greatly. No one in GF is going to give you any crap over being a DRK as long you hold aggro and don't die. If you get it into a static, you'll probably be the main tank, so, no pressure.
03-04-2016, 10:16 AM
Ebonwings

The only thing that i should be complaining about DRK is that they are a bit squishy compared to other tanks.
03-04-2016, 10:20 AM
Syzygian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebonwings

The only thing that i should be complaining about DRK is that they are a bit squishy compared to other tanks.

Except they aren't?
03-04-2016, 10:36 AM
Ebonwings

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syzygian

Except they aren't?

Well to be honest I did a bit of an experiment in Pharos Sirius HM, when I did a big pull my DRK hp drops down 1/4 before we start dps. While my PLD only lose a bit of HP. And yes I did it with Ilv 200 gear for both.
03-04-2016, 11:04 AM
Disc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syzygian

Except they aren't?

We are against physical attacks, though only slightly on single target if Reprisal is timed properly. We're also the only tank without a proper self heal against single target enemies.
03-04-2016, 11:06 AM
Galgarion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebonwings

Well to be honest I did a bit of an experiment in Pharos Sirius HM, when I did a big pull my DRK hp drops down 1/4 before we start dps. While my PLD only lose a bit of HP. And yes I did it with Ilv 200 gear for both.

Did you have grit up? This DK pulled seven at the start and didn't dip below 10k. https://youtu.be/kFsJgxgOdXI?t=66

Dropping to 1/4th health on one pull sounds kinda nutty. (Or are you saying you only lost 1/4th health? Which still isn't a lot.)
03-04-2016, 11:20 AM
Ebonwings

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galgarion

Did you have grit up? This DK pulled seven at the start and didn't dip below 10k. https://youtu.be/kFsJgxgOdXI?t=66

Dropping to 1/4th health on one pull sounds kinda nutty. (Or are you saying you only lost 1/4th health? Which still isn't a lot.)

Grit and Darkside was up, maybe i should re-try it in this new 3.2 and more data xD but overall I still love DRK. I go DRK when I want an easy run but still want to tank xD
03-04-2016, 11:41 AM
Aaliyahrose

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ebonwings

Well to be honest I did a bit of an experiment in Pharos Sirius HM, when I did a big pull my DRK hp drops down 1/4 before we start dps. While my PLD only lose a bit of HP. And yes I did it with Ilv 200 gear for both.

In big pulls, if you do the rotation correctly, DRK dodges a high number of auto attacks avoiding a considerable amount of damage. Depending on what type of mobs you go up against, you may have to change up your hate/mitigation rotation.
03-04-2016, 11:41 AM
Anienai

Only hyur, lalafells, and miqo'te DK tanks.
03-04-2016, 12:08 PM
RecklessLion

Actually they handle physical attacks well...better then wars. I thought they sucked until I realised grit stays up so that 20% shadow skin and shadow wall does well. Dark arts plus dark dance....are yall sure yall playing DRK as a tank and not a watered down dps thinking you're hitting hard?
03-04-2016, 12:27 PM
RecklessLion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syzygian

This is true only as an OT. DRK MT utility is pretty darn good considering its uptime and the fact that it makes no sacrifices for it.

Yeah well I guess since people are screaming Balance all tanks on all levels it's hard to see the shinning points instead of "Moar damage!!!"
03-04-2016, 02:51 PM
Jpec07

Only if they're Lalas or female Au Ra.
03-04-2016, 03:17 PM
RaineAmorie

I'm a Lala Drk since day 1 of 3.0, and get more compliments on my Drk tanking than Pld. Pld has a shield which gives them the extra bit of mitigation, but if you're cycling your cooldowns well, and know which mobs to stun in a pack you'd be surprised how sturdy Drk can be.

Unless you're pushing content in Savage you really shouldn't worry about which tank you play. Pick a class you like and learn it, a good Drk is just as good as any other tank, and knowing your class is what really makes you shine. I've been making the double pulls in Antitower since the 2nd day and having no trouble with my HP dipping to frightening levels.
03-04-2016, 03:21 PM
Jpec07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

I'm a Lala Drk since day 1 of 3.0

*looks down upon in the most literal sense possible*

Oh sorry, that short joke must have gone over your head.
03-04-2016, 03:21 PM
Syzygian

Reprisal makes up for our lack of a shield in a way.
03-04-2016, 03:30 PM
SpookyGhost

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaineAmorie

Unless you're pushing content in Savage you really shouldn't worry about which tank you play.

Even if you are, they're all perfectly viable. WAR + PLD and WAR + DRK have cleared A5-7S so far. Unfortunately PLD + DRK still isn't really a completely viable thing, but with gear it's doable.

DRK's pretty good, a lot of it's use is taken away as OT but Reprisal is really strong as MT and having access to DA + DM for certain mechanics or just magical tank busters/cleaves is ridiculously good. I'm personally still not a fan of how they designed DRK in general though, as it basically just... has CDs... which is pretty boring... but that aside, still pretty fun and entirely viable.
03-05-2016, 03:00 AM
Kryptoghost

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Even if you are, they're all perfectly viable. WAR + PLD and WAR + DRK have cleared A5-7S so far. Unfortunately PLD + DRK still isn't really a completely viable thing, but with gear it's doable.

DRK's pretty good, a lot of it's use is taken away as OT but Reprisal is really strong as MT and having access to DA + DM for certain mechanics or just magical tank busters/cleaves is ridiculously good. I'm personally still not a fan of how they designed DRK in general though, as it basically just... has CDs... which is pretty boring... but that aside, still pretty fun and entirely viable.

out of curiosity, why doesnt PLD and DRK work? i keep reading that. People are saying Neither has the utility to OT. What utility is required, i believe both have an AOE enmity raiser for adds.
03-05-2016, 03:14 AM
Jpec07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryptoghost

out of curiosity, why doesnt PLD and DRK work? i keep reading that. People are saying Neither has the utility to OT. What utility is required, i believe both have an AOE enmity raiser for adds.

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.
03-05-2016, 03:43 AM
Kryptoghost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpec07

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.

wow thats interesting. Sounds like WAR has become to tank to be. Back when i played my warrior i always felt like i was the lesser tank. But i was able to run pretty much anything as MT or OT.
03-05-2016, 03:46 AM
Februs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpec07

Snip

It also has to do with fight designs.

Technically, Pld's actually bring a lot to the table as OT. They can Cover the MT for Tank busters, Cast DV for party wide AoE's, and free up the healer's mp pool by casting stoneskins and the odd clemency. When in the MT position, a Pld has much more time to look at the party list and decide what the best way for them to provide support is. the problem is that almost all of their support comes in the form of extra defense and mitigation, which is widely not needed.

Pld's dmg reduction utility in the OT spot is actually pretty close (if not better than) War's, especially considering most War's ignore their dmg debuff in favour of dps. So, in theory, Pld's can provide more utility in that spot. The problem is that the utility they are providing is not considered as useful as straight dps. As things are, Healers really don't need the extra help. It's nice, and I'm sure that they like it, but they don't need it. They can keep a group up just fine without a Pld. Further, the MT doesn't strictly need to be covered for tank busters. It's nice, and I'm sure that they like it, but all of the Tanks can mitigate their own dmg. The amount of extra mitigation that a Pld can provide in the OT position is not proportionate to the amount of Dps utility that a War can provide in the same spot.

When comparing War's and Pld's in OT, what it falls to is which has the higher utility ceiling, and there is no ceiling to dps. There's never a time in which someone goes, "whoa guys ... we're killing this guy too fast. Gotta slow it down," but there could very well be a time in which someone says, "err... well that DV was nice, but my Galvanize would have handled it ..." Extra Dps is always considered an asset. The same cannot be said for extra mitigation. There's a limit to how much extra mitigation is actually required before it's just overkill or no one even notices it, so as long as that is the only thing that Pld's bring to OT, they will never be considered favourable in that role over War's.
03-05-2016, 04:46 AM
Syzygian

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.
03-05-2016, 05:21 AM
SpookyGhost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syzygian

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.

The tank section is pretty awful, yeah. I usually just come on here a few times a day to correct people on things. I'm beginning to wonder if I should still come at all, tbh.
03-05-2016, 07:21 AM
Violette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpec07

It's not really due to either one being particularly deficient so much as neither being able to compete with WAR in the OT spot. WAR can supply a slashing resistance debuff (which boosts DPS for DRK, PLD, WAR, and NIN), as well as a 10% reduction to outgoing damage from the boss, which outclasses both PLD and DRK--all while providing near-DPS-job-levels of DPS in Deliverance. PLD and DRK do have similar utility to the damage reduction, but they aren't as good at it unless they're MT. There's also the fact that neither can provide the slashing resistance debuff, and so without a WAR (or a NIN playing to support them), they aren't going to be able to deal as much damage.

And a 450 potency smack to the face. Never forget the smack to the face.

But given tank's damage reduction the lack of ninja in favour of dragoon or monk isn't as harsh as it was in 3.15.

War also has their main soft cooldown on a 20s(at worst) cd and equilibrium.
03-05-2016, 09:26 AM
GeekMatt

In early ARR as a healer there was a point where I realized I had to DPS less when a WAR was tanking. Eventually they buffed WAR and now it's probably my preferred tank in DF just for the run speeds over PLD. In HW I've had to accept that I consistently can't DPS as much with DRK tanking.

This could absolutely be based on play styles/player ability but it's still the case with typical DRK in DF/PF which will potentially impact attitudes.
03-05-2016, 10:08 AM
Ashkendor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syzygian

I feel like the tanking forums are almost at a singularity consisting of 50% Stat bickering, 25% WARs discussing their DPS and/or how they can MT/OT anything DRK/PLD can, and 25% DRKs and PLDs contemplating their reason for even existing amongst the constant "anything you can do we can do the same/better" from the former.

You forgot about the threads where Warriors whine about the DPS nerf while DRK and PLD look at each other and shrug.
03-06-2016, 02:13 PM
Synestra

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'm beginning to wonder if I should still come at all, tbh.

Noooo! dont leave us! You and Syz are propably only ones that actually knows how tanking should be handled, too many times suggestions offered by other players in here are either broken or flatout OP but usually both of you give resonable tweak and fix suggestions.
03-06-2016, 04:19 PM
JackFross

DRK is definitively squishier in trash pulls. It's not really something that's debatable. You can say "but you have tools" all you want. Their tools aren't "press 1 button" - they consist of knowing and understanding the Job's mechanics and executing them properly. DRK's trash tanking really shines when you blind the enemies or boost dodge rate or use DA+AD during Blood Price runoff. All of those require non-standard usage of Dark Arts. If you're not innately aware of these rarely-used effects, you're flat out not gonna do it.

Which results in DRK being squishier than PLD and WAR in trash pulls, in general. DA+DP/DD/AD is way trickier than "having a shield" or "hitting bloodbath" to be quite honest.
03-07-2016, 06:34 PM
kaox_reaper

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackFross

DRK is definitively squishier in trash pulls. It's not really something that's debatable. You can say "but you have tools" all you want. Their tools aren't "press 1 button" - they consist of knowing and understanding the Job's mechanics and executing them properly. DRK's trash tanking really shines when you blind the enemies or boost dodge rate or use DA+AD during Blood Price runoff. All of those require non-standard usage of Dark Arts. If you're not innately aware of these rarely-used effects, you're flat out not gonna do it.

Which results in DRK being squishier than PLD and WAR in trash pulls, in general. DA+DP/DD/AD is way trickier than "having a shield" or "hitting bloodbath" to be quite honest.

Then it's not so much "it's squishier" but more "learn the job to be good" then.
03-07-2016, 06:48 PM
SpookyGhost

DRK's pretty easy for trash pulls. Pull everything, put down Salted earth, put up Blood Price, pop a CD, and spam Abyssal Drain while weaving in some DA Abyssal Drain if you start ping ponging or your healer is actively DPSing. Dark Dance is pretty powerful for trash as well, since you can put Reprisal on any heavy hitting mobs or you can DA it after Blood Price wears if you don't have anything worth putting up Reprisal on. I guess, relatively, it's difficult compared to WAR? Maybe? But in general it's not exactly hard to pop CDs and press the Abyssal Drain button.