FF is not GoT.

This has got to stop..this is at the point where everyone seems to be either killed, or cripplingly maimed. I play these FF games because this sort of thing historically doesnt happen this much. in the last 7 games we've had ONE major character death, and ONE person who got crippled, and the latter was quickly healed. Now i cant even bear to LOOK at the trailers as they come out, and frankly, im too terrified to even start 3.2's story, as everyone keeps getting killed or hurt, not to mention the FC giving non-spoiler warnings. This method of storytelling is fine in avenue's where thats the premise, LIKE GoT. its expected, thats what people go there for. I come to FF because this sort of thing doesnt happen, and now i dont even feel safe being logged into the damn game..

They've killed off a lot more people over the course of their games than just one.

Just look at ffviii or ffx, there were a lot of people dying in those... Or look at the purge from FFXIII.

Shit happens in wars which is what's happening at the moment.

Not to say your post has no merit but death in FF isn't unheard of.

Oh boy, looks like someone didn't play FFXI.

I actually started writing out a list of characters that either flat our die or suffer unpleasant fates in one of XI's many multiverses, but stopped when I hit 7 because I realized that holy hell XI is a depressing game and it basically nullifies your point entirely because it would list every single named character in the game. I'm sorry. Seekers of Adoulin alone is almost brutal enough to put Heavensward to shame; the one character that does live through his death ends up a vampire...thing, not just a fakeout death like XIV is prone to.

But I respectfully disagree. You can make many generalizations about Final Fantasy, but your vision of what Final Fantasy 'should' be isn't always what Final Fantasy 'is;' there is no one singular, unified Final Fantasy. Death has been a thing in FF all the way back in FFII, where you had more playable characters dead than alive. And FFI? That entire game is about characters suffering horrible fates in a time loop. I'm sorry you don't enjoy Heavensward, but I don't think it's really anyone's place but the developer's to make the decision on the tone of the story.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Oh boy, looks like someone didn't play FFXI.

I actually started writing out a list of characters that either flat our die or suffer unpleasant fates in one of XI's many multiverses, but stopped when I hit 7 because I realized that holy hell XI is a depressing game it basically nullifies your point entirely. I'm sorry. Seekers of Adoulin alone is almost brutal enough to put Heavensward to shame; the one character that does live through his death ends up a vampire...thing, not just a fakeout death like XIV is prone to.

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Yeah agree, FFXI has some gut wrenching moments! I stopped FFXI right at that expansion, maybe I should go back and play through it!

I'm very curious to see your response to 3.2's Main Scenario, personally.

SoA is worth a playthrough, at least, since you'll get to experience the new Yhoator-styled zones, complete with maps just as useless as Yuhtunga's. They also have a really neat Trust system where you can summon NPC allies, even rather legendary ones, like the Ark Angels. Also the SoA villain is very XIV-inspired, to the point where it's basically copy-paste (and, wouldn't you know it, he's the best character in that expansion, too).

Rhapsodies, the free expansions, kinda jumped the shark, though. While I can't recommend not playing them, because they're a finale to the game's story, they're - well, I think it would be best to draw your own conclusions. Still, if you've some free time, definitely try it.

Terrified is better than bored.

In fact,one of the reasons Heavensward has been a lot better than the plot in ARR, is because this is also affecting (on a subtler level) the main character. The choices in dialogue and ultimate path the story takes is still vague enough to fit any type of character in, but it goes to show that no one goes through such personal hardships unscathed.

This also sets the stage for further character growth, where before there couldn't be any. To simply fight to gain the power of being a hero, well we already are a hero now, damn important one too. But to just stay that way, and just throw in "find the crystals again" bit through expansions, makes for a boring and rote character. That's because we already know they are strong and supported with or without the blessing.
It is one thing to become strong, to get The Blessing back, we were almost kinda of expecting it over and over. but what if next expansion we had to work though our inner demons? Or give The Blessing to others? Or maybe find that reason to believe in Eorzea again? This is what keeps things fresh in the story, to make a character that lives and feels within the setting, not apart from it.

FF isn't really in the same ball park as GoT. I think the tone of 3.2 is important. In many ways its a retrospective plot where the WoL and Scions have to look at what they are fighting for and what that means and make some choices. Personally I think for me the final scene with Alphinaud was probably one of the most important because it was aan affirmation of what we are doing and as small as the scene was it was kind of a hopeful, drawing a line in the sand scene for me, not naïve, but not willing to give into cynicism.

Final Fantasy games have never shied away from death. Nor should FFXIV as far as I'm concerned. It makes for a dull story when the status quo never changes. Take a look at the ongoing 'stories' of many other MMO's. Very few have the same depth as this does and even fewer are willing to follow through with killing off major characters.

You should play Final Fantasy IV, OP. You'll love that game when death is a non issue.

Honestly, I don't think GoT is all that bad but people seriously need to remember that neither the books nor the tv series were the first thing ever to have so much death. Kinda getting ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Arienal

this sort of thing historically doesnt happen this much.

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You should Play FF4 (the original one). People died like flies in this game.

I count 5 friendlies off the top of my head, out of a cast of hundreds. One is still to be confirmed (no body, no proof).

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Honestly, I don't think GoT is all that bad but people seriously need to remember that neither the books nor the tv series were the first thing ever to have so much death. Kinda getting ridiculous.

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This so much this. Hell even the person that "died" in 3.2 will probably be back.

I'm yet to find a numbered Final Fantasy that comes close to the depressing tone of Final Fantasy Tactics.

Ivalice in the time of the War of Lions is a truly ugly place, where you can't trust anyone, not even your own family.

And yes, given the story's ending, it's hard to claim that you've achieved anything but a Pyrrhic victory.

No one, and I mean no one, will emerge from that war unscathed.

Matoya wasn't kidding about what it means to go to war.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

But I respectfully disagree. You can make many generalizations about Final Fantasy, but your vision of what Final Fantasy 'should' be isn't always what Final Fantasy 'is;' [...] I don't think it's really anyone's place but the developer's to make the decision on the tone of the story.

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Only thing I have to say to counter that is that there was a pretty long stretch where each numbered Final Fantasy was aware of the themes of the games preceding it, and up until 3.2, FFXIV pretended it wasn't. Pretended. After 3.2, I'm much more willing to believe the devs do know what they're doing, but for a while it was like we had regressed back to FFII levels of death and nihilism without acknowledging that VI and IX were also a thing that happened.

The other thing to take into account is how SquareSoft used to operate, back in the day. They had a number of producers working on a number of different brands, each with their own "series" that was pretty much theirs to do with as they saw fit. Hironobu Sakaguchi had Final Fantasy, Akitoshi Kawazu had SaGa, Koichi Ishii had the Mana games, etc. Tetsuya Takahashi had Xenogears, which he packed up and took with him to his own company as Xenosaga and now Xenoblade.

Final Fantasy happens to be the one S-E brand that has survived long past its creator's time on the payroll, and to this day it continues to get passed around to different producers and directors trying to recover the magic it lost. Which is not to say that games since haven't been good in their own way, just that there hasn't been a consistent hand at the wheel since FFIX, and everyone has their own ideas on what to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Honestly, I don't think GoT is all that bad but people seriously need to remember that neither the books nor the tv series were the first thing ever to have so much death. Kinda getting ridiculous.

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No, but it is the first to gain widespread popularity, so naturally people are going to make comparisons.

For my part, I've neither read the books nor watched the show, so this whole "GoT!!!1" thing is lost on me. People dying in stories is not new.

Not GoT? Have you never played final fantasy tactics OP? That game has tons of intrigue and a massive body count even before they start working in the demon part of the story. On top of the ending which shows you didn't really accomplish much for how hard you fought.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Honestly, I don't think GoT is all that bad but people seriously need to remember that neither the books nor the tv series were the first thing ever to have so much death. Kinda getting ridiculous.

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You'd be surprised at the video game bosses I've seen compared to Dark Souls...

I don't mind character death or drama up to a point.

But...

Lore being lifted directly FROM Game of Thrones? The constant, constant references? I could live with less of that.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

You should Play FF4 (the original one). People died like flies in this game.

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I just got done replaying FFIX on mobile and the body count in that game for characters both minor and major makes FFXIV, and even most newer Final Fantasy games excluding Type-0, seem like a Nickelodeon cartoon by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Not GoT? Have you never played final fantasy tactics OP? That game has tons of intrigue and a massive body count even before they start working in the demon part of the story. On top of the ending which shows you didn't really accomplish much for how hard you fought.

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Yeah I think it's a very generational thing, depending on when you got into the franchise. Eorzea doesn't remind me of Westeros, Eorzea reminds me of Ivalice.

You know, come to think of it pretty much every FF - even those with a lot of lighthearted elements - are pretty dark. FF7 had a lot of dark moments, for example. Remember the attempted live execution of Tifa? Shinra's experimentation? The effects of Mako energy? Aeris' fate? Biggs, Wedge and Jessie? Marlene being used as leverage by Cait Sith?

FF6, FF9 and FF12 also had many dark moments. FF Tactics did as well - though that's already been brought up.

FFV was probably the lightest game in the series and even it got dark.

Remember in FFV when Galuf went into basically negative HP and beat Exdeath on his own temporarily? How the characters tried everything in their power to save him, and failed?

Maybe 2.55 had some GoT references. But was just that, there was no massive murdered.

Errm. If anything XIV is more like IV in that it seems like a bunch of main characters die, but oh wait they're fine. Both 3.1 and 3.2 had multiple cases of this. And of course "the big one" from 2.55-3.0. Yeah they get injured but...so? :P there are far worse FFs for this kind of thing than this one. The "good guy" deaths we have had thus far in XIV aren't anything remotely GoT-like. They're just evocative of past FFs, the "noble sacrifice" cliche. If it was like Game of Thrones we'd have Lucia suddenly betraying and stabbing Aymeric, Kan-E-Senna gutting Merlwyb at a meeting and sleeping with a bunch of sellswords, Nanamo ordering every bastard baby in Ul'dah slaughtered and torturing people for sport, Raubahn decapitating the player character in a melee, and Alphinaud gelding everyone and fighting off a garrison of soldiers while shirtless.

There are strong parallels between the Dragons/Ishgardians and Wildlings/Night's Watch, with the need to reconcile ages of fighting and death, but that's about it. XIV is far from a bloodbath.

I think the MSQ is following a "modern" take on FFIV. There are the obvious parallels, a shifting cast, characters lost to the plot coming back, Estinien in general, Ayermic shares a few traits with Cecil.
As far as the GoT thing, I don't think the parallels are in the dead cast, but in the sense that much of the plot focuses on Good Men or Leaders that genuinely care for their people/subordinates, and the myriad ways they get screwed over.
I think Nidhogg might end up serving as the Common Foe Ishgard and Dravania need to finally settle their differences. Whether the peaceful Dravanian faction decides Nidhogg needs to die, and whether they contribute to that cause remains to be seen.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Oh boy, looks like someone didn't play FFXI.

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this is somewhat of a tangent, but outside of the storyline, you had a real sense of urgency that you WOULD die and get a severe penalty like deleveling! I remember just spending hours in camping... valkrum dunes, quifum, the jungles ( OH GOD WOULD YOU GET LOST), crawler's nest, the deserts... so on and so forth and then boom, you'd accidently get aggro from an 'impossible to gauge!' trusight mob or something and DELEVEL A LEVEL AND A HALF!!
I remember when you first entered the promyvions ( i thnk thats what theyre called?) youd get the most CREEPIEST MUSIC, and names like 'weeper' and shit....just creepy, dark.
Also the base quest for fighting the shadowlord was so heartclenchingly dark...and... (again) creepy..
Not to mention, the game had a habit that nightfall = undead strong mobs would spawn. ( I always hated night time, while running through zones on low levels)

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Originally Posted by MoarLegion

I think Nidhogg might end up serving as the Common Foe Ishgard and Dravania need to finally settle their differences. Whether the peaceful Dravanian faction decides Nidhogg needs to die, and whether they contribute to that cause remains to be seen.

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Hraesvelgr will be the one to decide that and Nidhogg just tried to kill his daughter. I think it's safe to bet that we'll be fighting alongside Hraesvelgr by the end.

It's a game. It's characters in game. It's also life. Thousands of people die every day, whether it is a pleasant or not so pleasant death. GoT is REALISTIC. I read the books, and it is realistic. In the midst of a raging war, would you expect all the people to survive? I am surprised certain individuals haven't been poisoned yet. Such is the horror of war and CALAMITY. In this game, the only horrible death we got served was Haurchefant's. If you are referring to anyone else from the scions, we all got into a sticky situation and they escaped, one way or another. Moe, well, she just disappeared. And let me tell you that Raubhan was lucky he lost only his arm. That's what happens when you pick up a sword and go fight and when you meddle in politics and power games. Get real.

I thought this game went ultra lite with its killings. Even for an FF. Spoilers obviously coming.

When I first saw Thancred was sided with the Ascians, my first thought was "Woah he was a traitor all along?" or at the very least we'd be faced with killing him in mercy. Doing either would have been a huge deal and a risk worth respecting on the writers part considering his story preceeds 2.0. But nope... just possession... he'll be fine if you give him a smack. Really, when you can't see Moenbryda for being anymore like a redshirt (alongside all the nameless tempered people) the Ascians really don't seem like a big deal.

Haurchefaunt wasn't the biggest player either. He certainly pushed things along but his presence was dotted and his purpose had gone well past by the time he was cut out.

And don't get me started on the Sultana. In many respects her death would have had some of the same points attached as Thancred's. Except they also used it in a trailer promoting a huge expansion. A huge fake-out. Along with seemingly all the Scions (yes probably Minfillia too).

This game is still pretty generous considering. I was about to say something like "They could blow up the planet and absolutely every named character would be fine"... but then I remembered that 2.0 was built around the premise that something very similar to that had literally just happened. Even the guy that seemed to die in that instance got more life milked out of him first.

FFXIV story got better when people started dying. But if you mind that I might recommend you Pool or Chess, they also have multiplayer and no one dies there.

I might sound dumb but what is GoT ? Goat of Tootsie ?
I see the point of the message (and disagrees, for me FF XIV is very soft compared to other FF) but I missed the illustration ^^

Game of thrones

It's funny actually, A Game of Thrones is only book one in the series. The series it self is A Song of Ice and Fire. But you know, HBO...

Oh ok I was miles away ! :D
Sorry I don't watch politic soft porn ^^

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

FFXIV story got better when people started dying.

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And this is where I disagree. It got better in spite of all the people dying. Most of FFXIV's character deaths (as in, where people actually died) have been really terribly executed (pun intended), and generally based on really shaky narrative structure and logic.

But that is the sort of attitude that they're catering to. I understand why it's popular, I just don't care for it much. Love ASOIF though (the TV series less so), but that's because GRMM and I have a similar view on life.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

FFV was probably the lightest game in the series and even it got dark.

Remember in FFV when Galuf went into basically negative HP and beat Exdeath on his own temporarily? How the characters tried everything in their power to save him, and failed?

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Never forget ;.;

http://static.zerochan.net/Final.Fan...ll.1355133.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fenral

-snip-

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See, I don't mind the fact that Haurchefant and Ysayle apparently sacrificed themselves for the sake of the Warrior of Light. I do, however, want it to be portrayed as a negative thing rather than something to aspire towards. I'll admit, I have a strong loathing for plot armour and whilst the WoL is obviously going to be shrouded in it at every turn I do not belief that any other character should be safe. If it makes sense for the story for Y'stola to die in 4.0, for example, I'm perfectly fine with it. So long as it is done well.

Characters dying keeps things fresh. It also allows the antagonists to...actually feel like a threat. Yet if nameless red-shirts are dying or minor characters are introduced and then killed off shortly afterwards whilst the 'big names' continue to repeatedly avoid any dire consequences things just become predictable.

I'd also apply it to injuries as well. I'm bitterly disappointed that neither Raubahn or Thancred were humbled by their experiences. Sadly we can safely say that their positions leave them likely candidates to be 'safe' as far as the ongoing story goes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

See, I don't mind the fact that Haurchefant and Ysayle apparently sacrificed themselves for the sake of the Warrior of Light. I do, however, want it to be portrayed as a negative thing rather than something to aspire towards. I'll admit, I have a strong loathing for plot armour and whilst the WoL is obviously going to be shrouded in it at every turn I do not belief that any other character should be safe. If it makes sense for the story for Y'stola to die in 4.0, for example, I'm perfectly fine with it. So long as it is done well.

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I think that other thread may have led you to the mistaken conclusion that I am against any and all forms of character death. I'm not, I just happen to have really high standards that FFXIV refuses to meet. According to Yoshida, Haurchefant was reintroduced to the plot in 2.3 for the express purpose of being a character who dies in 3.0. While I do think plotline deaths should be part of a larger plan, that larger plan should not be limited to have someone killed off for cheep fealz without affecting the overall direction of the story.

What I really wanted was an aggressive regime change in Ul'dah catalyzed by the Sultana's assassination. I'm still bitter that we'll never get that. I want major deaths that we can't just press on after with our goal unchanged, because the world can't simply pretend that that loss didn't happen. It's kind of a shame that MMOs operate on the assumption that the world can't be changed by anything, because the setting has a lot of potential for radical change that we'll simply never get to see.