Archer Post 1.19

Hey guys

Making this topic for discussing the currently problem with archer, there is a few.

First off lets make a point of the elephant in the room, damage its poor. worst in the game and were supposed to be a pure damage class not tied down with any other responsibilities such as tanking or healing.

We've had enough time to play and base which are the best current classes and i'd say its Lancer closely followed by Marauder and lets not get started on OPspike.

Not sure how they could have let this patch come out without testing comparative dps across classes.

Now I'm sure some ex-archer who now Maining LNC/MRD will come on and say hey but you guys were the best by far in 1.18. true, but now the table is turned and the game should not aim for a top dog dps. it should be balanced so all classes have a role and are useful.

Two other things I wanted to talk about was incoming damage and our lack of a MP ability. We have (I think) the lowest health pool for a DOW. And because were ranged this is fine I guess.
However the amount of damage we take is an issue the meta non dungeon endgame is party related and we shouldn't be tanking. Only problem is our threat is super high for the bare minimum damage we do, if we use various combinations of threat reduction spells we only make ourselves even less useful. Hell I've been denied access to parties because I was an archer.

The MP thing is a curious thing. Apart from Trifurcate which uses a whopping 15mp ever 120seconds we don't really have many spells or any that use Mana yet we have a large pool of 700-800.

I think changing Quick Nock to not have 4-5 different individual hits but 1 large hit with the animation of many. This would allow us to buff it, Its a 2000 TP ability on a long cooldown it must do more damage To offset the buff add a Mana cost of 40-50 cost to it and up its damage a bit and it would really help out.
In its current state its 3rd on our priority list behind Foeseeker and Barrage.

Some input from otherwise would be appreciated as I've certainly not covered everything like animation locks, and say bloodletter having such a large lock that its suicide on ifrit.

Seeing how bard is gonna come off it, looks to me like they're making it more of a technical job rather than pure DPS. Personally, I'm waiting for 1.2 patch before making an opinion of this class.

Yeah, I thought about complaining as well but kinda pointless without seeing 1.2.

It is sort of sad for people that lvled ARC as their first main lvl 50 only to get to Ifrit and realize it's useless...

I am hoping for some improvement in 1.2, but we will see. Maybe we will become more usefull as Barchers and our DPS will increase.

I would love to see a Dev post to the current condition of ARC. That nerf was too harsh, and I have the same problem of doing 'endgame' type of events because ppl would just rather take a stronger DPS. I understand that the idea COULD be that we were nerfed down so much because of the BRD job.. but ARC still needs to be a viable DD, at least somewhat balanced to the other classes. Not to mention BRD isn't sposed to be coming until 1.21.. we need a fix now SE.

We pay for our DPS directly by needing ammo, yet we have the lowest dps across the board. It's just not right.

ARC has two main problems right now, and addressing them would fix the balance issue:

#1 They're lacking a 3000TP WS, which is where everyone else is getting their damage.
#2 They're the only damage class that's subject to animation lock to perform regular attacks (Light Shot).

It's silly, though, to argue that you deserve to be the top DPS just because you need arrows. Arrows should just buy you range, not DPS.

I don't think we need to be top DPS, but we are paying for arrows, where the rest of DD don't have to pay for ammo.
ARC should at least have a chance in competing against other DD lol. I am just glad I lvled THM to 50 as well, or else I would have been left out of Ifrit fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikki

It's silly, though, to argue that you deserve to be the top DPS just because you need arrows. Arrows should just buy you range, not DPS.

---

Why shouldn't arrows have different DPS? Not all arrow tips are the same, nor do they do the same thing.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq...g4oyo1_400.jpg

http://www.therpf.com/attachments/f9...120d1290567080

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7aJhr_e4Ti...90531-3470.jpg

These arrow tips all serve different purposes in the real world. Bleed out control, size, amount of damage, it is all relative, and yes, even range. I feel like I did before 1.19 Lancer should of been an alternative to Archer, and now the tables are turned and I feel they hurt archer too much, they needed to balance them regardless of their future jobs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikki

It's silly, though, to argue that you deserve to be the top DPS just because you need arrows. Arrows should just buy you range, not DPS.

---

I never said we need to be top DPS...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scherwiz

Why shouldn't arrows have different DPS? Not all arrow tips are the same, nor do they do the same thing.

---

That's not what he's talking about, though. Yes, ARC has to pay to attack. The question is, what do they get in return? Raikki is asserting that the answer to that question is that they get range, and the safety that comes with it, but not an actual DPS edge over melee. I hadn't considered it before, but I'm inclined to agree.

Why shouldn't arrows have different DPS? Not all arrow tips are the same, nor do they do the same thing.

This is a very good point. Whats interesting is that the archer started as a class that by purchasing different arrows you would be able to do different kinds of damage (originally the build was monsters were weak to different kinds of mele attacks i.e. slashing piercing so on and so forth) but when Yoshi-P took over (not that I am complaining he is doing awesome) the mele damage types went out the window. I would like to see them come back just so I can justify paying 20k+ a stack for arrows. I would craft them but I find crafting tedious and annoying.

Abauge I'm with you I actually stopped leveling my arc because no one wants it end game right now... I understand the class was alittle OP but now its not even worth having in the party arc or ranger in any mmo always has high dps usually only ever behind mages... I don't understand smh

Haven't really done the ifrit fight, why are archers useless there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cidolfus

Haven't really done the ifrit fight, why are archers useless there?

---

They are not useless. Its just that morons, fools, and idiots, confuss less then optimal with usless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coglin

They are not useless. Its just that morons, fools, and idiots, confuss less then optimal with usless.

---

By "less than optimal", you mean things along the lines of not having Sentinel...etc... from other melee jobs?

I think it's unfair to expect that only "the best" of a class should only be able to participate in a particular fight. If you're looking to promote people playing together and enjoying gameplay, fights like Ifrit need to be balanced enough to allow the majority of players in all classes to be able to enter. I agree that there are always those that play their chosen class diabolically and are completely lacking insight into this, but even if you can play ARC fairly well, I think it's still a larger challenge to do Ifrit than with other melee classes.

I don't see most melee skills as meshing well with ARC. Those skills are for players up close, and a lot of the time are wasted on ARC. We could do with a separate set of skills that melee don't get that augment what we need to do specifically (and obviously to counterbalance that we would lose access to melee skills and they to ours).

I'm a die-hard Archer and have continued to play since recent changes, but am not convinced in the arguments suggested above.

So, what benefits do we get in return for this damage reduction?

Being able to range? Well, it is true that we can stand further away than melee (losing the "auto-attack" we've been given - why this was ever done if you're trying to keep a ranged class ranged I don't know), but we are still close enough at times to get hit by AoE regularly. If we're going to be proud of our range, it could do with being a little further to make it a true "plus" of being a ranged class (ie: we don't do as much damage and we can be squishy, but seeng as AoE doesn't reach us, we can keep going that little bit longer when other classes get pounded flat up close).

Arrow types? As already discussed, this idea has gone out of the window to date. It would be nice to be able to choose mob-specific arrows to improve damage. It would be nice to have effect arrows like in FFXI (eg: sleep, stun, poison, elemental attributes...etc...) if we're being pushed down the path of support.

Better defense? Nope, ARC only has access to soft armour. We're pretty much still as squishy as before, so that's not changed.

Future planned changes such as BRD? It's hard to justify changes now if the potential reason is months away from being brought in. That just shows SE don't care whether they temporarily kneecap classes as long as their timetable is unaffected. If this was planned because of BRD, these changes could have been made at the time BRD is brought in.

My Questions/Suggestions

1. Why can't ARC's be given the choice as to whether they want to be damage-dealers (in which case they should be given more damaging skills like a decent 3000TP skill to be able to truly compete with the other melee classes), or supporters (in which case you take a hit in the damage stakes in return for support ability access)?

2. When it is brought in, could Musketeer be the flip side to BRD? ie: Aim for ARC being middle ground damage/some support skills, BRD is less damage/more support, and Musketeer is high damage/no support (ie: the "stereotypical" glass cannon everyone always talks about)?

So my primary class is ARC and I have been fighting Ifrit with it exclusively. I may not do as much damage as say a LNC but I definitely keep up. I don't understand why everyone feels that they have to change classes to something else to be "successful" in these fights. Yes they dropped the dps on ARC but it is no way useless. Being able to not get hit, drop a pretty decent DoT, and assist cure/raise when needed makes it a pretty good support package for the Ifrit fight.

i agree the nerft was way to hard on arc they should do alittle more dmg then other class just because u have different types of arrows but now is almost the worse class to play but lets see what happen what SE is trying to do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rexen

So my primary class is ARC and I have been fighting Ifrit with it exclusively. I may not do as much damage as say a LNC but I definitely keep up. I don't understand why everyone feels that they have to change classes to something else to be "successful" in these fights. Yes they dropped the dps on ARC but it is no way useless. Being able to not get hit, drop a pretty decent DoT, and assist cure/raise when needed makes it a pretty good support package for the Ifrit fight.

---

Your not keeping up with the LNC dps, not even close. And if by some off chance you are, that lnc is doing really terrible dps. I would love for you to be able to back up your claim with a parse, or maybe even a couple screenies with a duo ARC group taking him down.. but I know that's asking too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exn

Your not keeping up with the LNC dps, not even close. And if by some off chance you are, that lnc is doing really terrible dps. I would love for you to be able to back up your claim with a parse, or maybe even a couple screenies with a duo ARC group taking him down.. but I know that's asking too much.

---

Yup, to keep up means to match or do the same damage...so his sentence doesn't make sense. They also made Bloodletter very hard to land on Ifrit; and nerfed it's end damage. Not to mention the Light Shot animation lock. I'd also like to see a 5 ARC dd video...probably run out of time or mana. :(

Yeah...I thought people were kinda crying when archer's got changed...decided to lvl one because I plan to play bard. Got 50 today and people aren't kidding. Archer is just so bad..so bad :(....so bad

imo, they should never have nerfed multi-shot, then we would at least have a method of dealing spike damage. We have all these abilities that reduce emnity like chameleon and quelling strike, but they're effectively worthless atm considering our damage has been gimped so bad.

As mentioned, arc had enough weaknesses that taking away our ability to do meaningful damage was pointless. (i.e. we're the only dow that is rooted while using basic attacks, lower hp, lowest def, etc.) As it is now, we have no value in a party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vanguard319

imo, they should never have nerfed multi-shot, then we would at least have a method of dealing spike damage. We have all these abilities that reduce emnity like chameleon and quelling strike, but they're effectively worthless atm considering our damage has been gimped so bad.

As mentioned, arc had enough weaknesses that taking away our ability to do meaningful damage was pointless. (i.e. we're the only dow that is rooted while using basic attacks, lower hp, lowest def, etc.) As it is now, we have no value in a party.

---

Um, are you aware that even if they had not nerfed multishot, your multishot damage would still be garbage since they reduced non tp attack damage?

I believe this is also why the damage on quicknock sucks balls now, each hit does same as a regular shot from what i've seen. I guess someone forgot to check the tables and re adjust it.

Pre 1.19 archer damage was all in it's normal attacks, and in blood letter for boss fights. It's other tp attacks have always been sub par.

Post 1.19 auto attacks and light shot nerfed, good bye arc dps, oh and nerf blood letter for good measure.

Some one screwed up, it's as simple as that.
Do you think SE will take notice, of this quiet little wheel that needs oil, but isn't squeaking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akuun

Um, are you aware that even if they had not nerfed multishot, your multishot damage would still be garbage since they reduced non tp attack damage?

I believe this is also why the damage on quicknock sucks balls now, each hit does same as a regular shot from what i've seen. I guess someone forgot to check the tables and re adjust it.

Pre 1.19 archer damage was all in it's normal attacks, and in blood letter for boss fights. It's other tp attacks have always been sub par.

Post 1.19 auto attacks and light shot nerfed, good bye arc dps, oh and nerf blood letter for good measure.

Some one screwed up, it's as simple as that.
Do you think SE will take notice, of this quiet little wheel that needs oil, but isn't squeaking?

---

regardless, they practically destroyed arc as a dd, and it was not really necessary to that extreme, considering that they boosted the damage output of the other classes.

Yeah my main was archer but they over nerfed it, but at least i got marauder and lancer now at 50 :D, i would really like for SE to remove the nerf on raging strikes with multishot, i tried to fight ifrit but was pointless my highest weaponskill was nearly 500 with all the buffs as possible, most of the time i had 200+ ws while lancer has a 900+ dmg weaponskill, well the highest i saw atm, so yeah they really need to check archer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vanguard319

regardless, they practically destroyed arc as a dd, and it was not really necessary to that extreme, considering that they boosted the damage output of the other classes.

---

I don't agree, they didn't practically destroy archer, they completely obliterated it. The only class that does less damage now is gladiator and that's the tank.

I'd really like to see them undo the Multishot TP nerf. It's absurd that MRD can do Broad Swing to a group of mobs and instantly get 3000 TP, but I'm stuck at 500 TP for a 3-arrow shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

I'd really like to see them undo the Multishot TP nerf. It's absurd that MRD can do Broad Swing to a group of mobs and instantly get 3000 TP, but I'm stuck at 500 TP for a 3-arrow shot.

---

Indeed. The TP nerf was way worse than the damage nerf. :/ This really was uneeded and unwanted. After all multishot was the way of ARC generating TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akuun

I don't agree, they didn't practically destroy archer, they completely obliterated it. The only class that does less damage now is gladiator and that's the tank.

---

You just like disagreeing with everything I say, even when our opinions are similar don't you?

Archers were the towering pentacle of dps, but then 1.19 happened. . . .
1.19?
91.1?
9.11 OMG!!! it all makes sense! it's a tourist plot!

(let's see how many of you try to correct "tourist")

The disagree was a joke, I do agree they really over did things.

anybody going to play archer/bard in 1.20 ?

Bard not til 1.21.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aratharn

Bard not til 1.21.

---

Stop whining.

But.. but.. but..

Only thing I'm concerned about was the statement made about long battles.

ARC may be a good DD again after 1.20.

Auto-attack means they are no longer subject to animation lock for simple TP gain like Light Shot spam.
Bloodletter has increase buff to the DoT effect when used with combo.

Be interesting to see if they give ARC a WS that is on par with the LNC/MRD/PGL heavy hitters.

There's no way to know if the "buff" to the WS DoT effect makes it even as effective as it is today, much less pre-1.19.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corrderio

Only thing I'm concerned about was the statement made about long battles.

---

Yep. Pretty lame imo.