So, apparently, we're getting MORE HP for the SAME dps...

Still downloading the patch, but based on what I'm reading and understanding from people, we tanks (or at least PLDs like me and maybe DRKs) are still doing more or less the same damage but ending up with more HP if we stick to the VIT route as opposed to pure STR or a Hybrid (like I used to be).

So, essentially, it's a net HP gain for the same amount of DPS if switching from STR to VIT. Not technically a DPS gain, but not a DPS loss either. OTOH I'm pretty sure Squeenix never did say we're gonna do more DPS overall, but they did say that going full VIT isn't a DPS gimping. Meaning:

If you were mostly STR, you'd be either getting a slight hit or none at all.
If you were mostly VIT, you might feel a bit of a DPS bump.

Well played Squeenix, well played. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're misunderstanding. All 3 jobs lost 15-25% of their damage. Now they do that same 15-25% lower damage whether you're in VIT or STR.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you're misunderstanding. All 3 jobs lost 15-25% of their damage. Now they do that same 15-25% lower damage whether you're in VIT or STR.

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They said they increased the threat for our moves for this nerf but really, it wasn't that much of a buff, high dps classes are always on our arse in threat. Maybe its just me not having enough sleep but really, the monk and drg in my group was like creeping up on pulling aggro >.<;

somebody parsed his pld on str before 3.2 and now same on vit and guess what
210 vit gear 3.2 800 after 1min....
210 str gear 3.15 : +- 1000 after 3mins...
WAR are the most of time OT they just do dps mechs why cant we dps like the other ?? give us back our dps or WAR will just stop play the game, for now i just stop my sub let's hope they patch if not i will unistall the game

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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Still downloading the patch, but based on what I'm reading and understanding from people, we tanks (or at least PLDs like me and maybe DRKs) are still doing more or less the same damage but ending up with more HP if we stick to the VIT route as opposed to pure STR or a Hybrid (like I used to be).

So, essentially, it's a net HP gain for the same amount of DPS if switching from STR to VIT. Not technically a DPS gain, but not a DPS loss either. OTOH I'm pretty sure Squeenix never did say we're gonna do more DPS overall, but they did say that going full VIT isn't a DPS gimping. Meaning:

If you were mostly STR, you'd be either getting a slight hit or none at all.
If you were mostly VIT, you might feel a bit of a DPS bump.

Well played Squeenix, well played. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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i quoted the wrong message

It's fine !
You lose 200 DPS but gain so much life that the healer will be happy and no longer in pain
And will DPS to make up the loss x3

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Originally Posted by bete-immonde

WAR are the most of time OT they just do dps mechs why cant we dps like the other ?? give us back our dps or WAR will just stop play the game

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Hmmm...because you're not a DPS...maybe ?
I don't think you'll get much comfort if you quit because they pick some of your DPS, when you're still the HIGHEST DPS for tank...

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you're misunderstanding. All 3 jobs lost 15-25% of their damage. Now they do that same 15-25% lower damage whether you're in VIT or STR.

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exactly and thats unacceptable most of time war have nothing to do but dps, i wont wait for tank an add while have 300dps. I wanna be usefull and have same impact as the other, square enix gave us that and now they take it back if they not change somethin i wont play tank no more or even this game

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm...because you're not a DPS...maybe ?
I don't think you'll get much comfort if you quit because they pick some of your DPS, when you're still the HIGHEST DPS for tank...

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i don't care about that like many war , the thing is we was doing shit tons of dps on fight like a2s and that was usefull to the group people where amazed and damn you fell good bout that and now they take that from us .

Waiting to get better gear/ weapons before I lose my shit

Wanna start the issue again where HP was never the issue as it does not increase def? And there were no real tankbusters? you would struggle as much with a STR tank as you would do with a VIT tank.

The only difference a noob healer now has a few more seconds to react.

Well the point of the adjustment was to reinforce the trinity. Tanks should be tanks, not dps masquerading as tanks. WARs will still do the most dps out of all the tanks, just a little less now, and just a little farther from the limits of MCH/BRD.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

Well the point of the adjustment was to reinforce the trinity. Tanks should be tanks, not dps masquerading as tanks. WARs will still do the most dps out of all the tanks, just a little less now, and just a little farther from the limits of MCH/BRD.

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before 3.2 1000 after 3MINS with str
now 800 after 1MIN it means plus than 200 dps cauz if you keep continue till 3min you will loose more for sure
thats look like ARR tank dps
between xenosyvex will lose his communauty thanks SE for killin people who tryin to stream this game

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Originally Posted by bete-immonde

before 3.2 1000 after 3MINS with str
now 800 after 1MIN it means plus than 200 dps cauz if you keep continue till 3min you will loose more for sure
thats look like ARR tank dps
between xenosyvex will lose his communauty thanks SE for killin people who tryin to stream this game

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didnt you state the parse was doing the dps test as a PALADIN, as in, the literal weakest dps tank job, str accesories or no? i havent been tanking for too horribly long and i cant make much sense of parsing, but i think its safe to assume youll be doing more dps than a pally

the devs already admitted they went overbored with dps checks recently and will be scaling it back. and like others have mention, reinforcing that tanks should......tank. if you have such a hard on for pure damage numbers maybe level MNK.....? or BLM if you really truly want to see 4 digit crits again, as i assume no more 10K+ fell cleave is the reason youre losing youre shit here

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Originally Posted by Jeibird

didnt you state the parse was doing the dps test as a PALADIN, as in, the literal weakest dps tank job, str accesories or no? i havent been tanking for too horribly long and i cant make much sense of parsing, but i think its safe to assume youll be doing more dps than a pally

the devs already admitted they went overbored with dps checks recently and will be scaling it back. and like others have mention, reinforcing that tanks should......tank. if you have such a hard on for pure damage numbers maybe level MNK.....? or BLM if you really truly want to see 4 digit crits again, as i assume no more 10K+ fell cleave is the reason youre losing youre shit here

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He said he only had 300 dps. I don't think the game is the problem.

We lost about 20% DPS. My War attack power was 1040 in party at i203 full str, at i208 full fending I have 841

[QUOTE=bete-immonde;3584001]snip/QUOTE]

I just did some testing.

Before 3.2 I was doing 1070 on a 2.45 minutes dummy parse, 1045 STR DRK (non BiS at all), no food, no potions nor party buffs.

Today my best try is 868 in full VIT, 851 in full STR.

That said, the job is very competitive on AOEs, then I will probably take advantage of these brand new 22600 HP (grouped) to pull moar things and AOE them to death like a retard. Moar trash mobs in my salted earth / unleash / abyssal spam = moar dps at the end why not?

Also you are not going to pull 300 dps unless you queue with a 60 weaver T_T.

Even though this nerf sucks a little bit especially for someone who liked to solo/duo things (for fun onlty though) i ll keep on tanking things because i love it and because soon ill get my dps back with the i240 gear, but this time with 12K HP more.

Also some tanks will prolly leave so it will be good to stay and shine.

My 2 cents.

Gotta admit, the fact that some tanks will quit tanking because less DeePeeEss is pretty funny to me.

Like... literally nothing has changed about how the jobs function. You can still maximize DPS and contribute via damage and utility to trials, raids and dungeons. The que time will still be hella fast, and you're still going to be tanking. Just hitting a little less hard and with more health.

Is this game's meta this obsessive with damage? Even when the damage isn't/won't be necessary, it's this big of a deal?

Tank dps? Don't care. Now i don't have to worry about my hp. Don't get me wrong, i throw in dps where i can, but as i was taught a long time ago on an mmo far far away "you're there to soak damage and wave your arms in the enemies face". I'll leave top notch dps to those who are actually dps.

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

Gotta admit, the fact that some tanks will quit tanking because less DeePeeEss is pretty funny to me.

Like... literally nothing has changed about how the jobs function. You can still maximize DPS and contribute via damage and utility to trials, raids and dungeons. The que time will still be hella fast, and you're still going to be tanking. Just hitting a little less hard and with more health.

Is this game's meta this obsessive with damage? Even when the damage isn't/won't be necessary, it's this big of a deal?

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Yes, it is the meta for the elite in this game. They want to maximize their role to their utmost efficiency. Honestly, I don't mind this mindset (until it becomes forced upon others unnecessarily). I haven't run end game content nearly as much as some people, but I've very often been complimented on my tanking. A while back, I ran into a parser and I was very curious! I found however, that my DPS was horrid. Granted, I also wasn't maximizing (and I knew I wasn't at the time), but my PLD in A4N parsed at only 391. I was dumbfounded at how low the number was (though... I was dead for a tad bit... as it was my first time in A4N at the time). The person parsing was nice enough to do A1N to check my DPS again while I tried to maximize. I was quite sad to find out I still only managed mid to high 500's (faust was 550 ish, Opp was 590ish). Granted, I've never messed up my (very simple) rotations as much in my life, and I kept freaking out between SwO and ShO cause I knew I was being parsed this time (I'm great under pressure...) and messed up a few of my goring blade and RoH macro's because of switching stances (and thus, not doing my final combo).

Anywho, that was a bit off topic, but the point being, I found out that my DPS was crap, but I was still considered a "good" tank by many. Even running with people who said they've run through Alex Savage a billion times and blah blah blah. Good DPS will still bring down mobs quickly. Good healers will upkeep their team. Good tanks will keep aggro. All three will still commit to damaging enemies.

Now-a-days, I'm much more committed to stance dancing with my PLD where I feel comfortable and I can say, I notice a considerable difference myself personally. Unfortunately, no one I usually run with has noticed anything different though =( Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

Is this game's meta this obsessive with damage? Even when the damage isn't/won't be necessary, it's this big of a deal?

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When the quality of people using df is so poor that highly geared (209/210) dps classes do less dps than tanks under 200 and when, on rare occasions, a tank in all strength accessories could literally have more dps than the healer and both dps classes combined, I'd say it is a big deal. That's why I no longer queue solo.

I feel this change was completely unnecessary and only exists to please the healers/filter out tanks who cant play the game properly. Of course the meta has only been like this since late scob, but that's far from the point. I enjoyed playing risky in alexander savage and optimizing my mitigation cooldowns so I could tank in my offensive stance as long as possible to maximize my dps output. Hell, I pretty much had to do this in A3S during the first few weeks with pentamelded accessories. But that's gone now since we will just be brainless meatshields with nerfed dps who will be barely doing more dps than a SCH, and that's only if you're a WAR. I would not mind as much if VIT gear was not littered with parry, but SE cant be bothered to do something about this useless stat.

(Some people say swap out parry pieces with str gear, but I have not looked into how viable that is yet.)

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

When the quality of people using df is so poor that highly geared (209/210) dps classes do less dps than tanks under 200 and when, on rare occasions, a tank in all strength accessories could literally have more dps than the healer and both dps classes combined, I\\'d say it is a big deal. That\\'s why I no longer queue solo.

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Well, yeah. But you can make an argument for needing better defense as a DPS because DF tanks and heals can be trash. With that said though, I understand how it can help, but duty finder will always be duty finder, no matter the lvl, ilvl or class.

I still don\\'t see the "nerf" as something that will matter or ultimately change anything. Your numbers aren\\'t as big, but that doesn\\'t mean they A) Don\\'t matter, or B) Make skill, knowledge, practice and effort matter any less.

What, because the ceiling is lower, that means you may as well give up? Because no, you won\\'t and/or shouldn\\'t. If your posting on this forum, that automatically disqualifies that notion for you and most anyone else here.

Despite all that, I do think the change was superfluous. As I said, it doesn\\'t change much of anything. If PLD DPS was getting a buff, and both PLD and DRK had sooome TP issues resolved, then there tank disparity would have been eased. Especially if the DPD checks weren\\'t going to be nuts anymore.

But hey, day one of the changes, right?

I understand both of the part in this discussion but in my opinion SE made a mistake.

I'm not a Tank, or it is not my main I just use it in old content or dungeon,
but when I play the tank I usually prefere the WAR, his DPS capacity is something that make his role very interesting and when in the 3.0 SE implemented the Deliverance mechanic they seemed to point out that the WAR meta is very close to the DPSs.

When you give a boost to a class and then nerf it, people will obviously even because this will impact on the thing that made that role fascinating.
This won't mean that who said "you are a tank, not a DPS" are totally wrong but to me they should have implemented this feature differently, something like:

If you use STR jewels you will do the same damage of 3.1,
If you use VIT jewels you will do an average damage between 3.1 full VIT and full STR.

So the gap won't be so heavy and in some situation people would sacrifice some DPS to go VIT, but leaving the opportunity to customize a little your role.

Actually tanks was the only class with a little customization thanks to STR/VIT decision, this flattern it a lot (in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

deeps

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see my problem isn't so much that I want more deeps. Its the issue of the game mainly giving fluff damage with single target hits and "some" auto attacks in normal content (and beyond) doing a lot of damage. Between the strong hits you really aren't taking too much damage in normal content. At least to me its rather boring during that fluff and the only way to mitigate that (pun intended) was to focus on dps. Standing around and "over tanking" is not fun and most good healers will dps regardless if your health is hardly dropping. The reward before this patch was very much worth it for dark and warriors doing a LOT of damage while trying to survive. Doing old content now isn't as satisfying because of the nerf when realistically you are going to be in dps stance intelligently in this patch and last patch if you are overgeared and are a good player. HP bloat encourages that even further with older content. Issue is that its less rewarding now.

(sorry for double post, but i reached word limit)


There was also a higher risk to the strength meta so that definitely made it more fun. Finding the comfort zone between life and death made it very fun to focus on dps as long as the healers were competent/cool enough to let you do so. Hell even dark knight feels like its SUPPOSED to dps. Especially with blood weapon to conserve mp/tp and all of its off global cooldowns. Pretty much a good amount of new skills for tanks this patch was designed with dps in mind. Hence the "meta".


TL;DR? Tank busters and doing lots of constant damage is, in my opinion, the only way to make things exciting again. What i'm saying is that Square hopefully stays true to their word about tanks taking more damage this time around. If tanks are taking a lot of damage then not only is tanking reinforced, but the high risk/high reward will return if the damage is great enough. Yes we still do a decent amount of damage and nothing is stopping us from dpsing, but its still pretty jarring losing 20% of our damage unexpectedly like this. I'm crying just a bit because R.I.P. fell cleave, but I understand the meta hasn't even developed fully and don't know what i'm dealing with.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, you're misunderstanding. All 3 jobs lost 15-25% of their damage. Now they do that same 15-25% lower damage whether you're in VIT or STR.

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Yup and pretty much screwed warriors self healing as well!