About this here Elemental Wheel...

Am I the only one fundamentally bothered by the notion "Wind puts out Fire"?

Having designed RPGs myself I understand how difficult it can be to make an elemental relationship without one element being too overpowered. However, before you play the "its a fantasy game, logic doesn't apply" card, Eorzea still has rules and it uses real physics in some respects (e.g. Fire doesn't suck up water to perpetuate, it burns in the presence of oxygen just like everywhere else. Gravity still applies. You can't breathe underwater. Etc.) So a relationship of Wind trumps Fire should have been an obvious no-no from the start.

I would love to be a mage in this game but the current Elemental wheel seriously bothers me and I know I can't be the only one who feels strongly about the subject. (And I'll also go ahead and put out the "QQ Don't play a mage then" card so you don't have to waste a post) With 2.0 could we see a new elemental wheel that makes a little bit more sense?

I don't even pay attention to it. Considering Ice hits the Amal'jaas hardest, I don't know what to think anymore. That said, when I blow on a candle, the flame doesn't get bigger.

Wind, with enough force, can put out fire. I would imagine if you could conjure wind, you could make it pretty strong. Thus, wind extinguishes fire.

Water can turn off Fire but enough fire and water can boil so it does make sense in a way.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Wind, with enough force, can put out fire. I would imagine if you could conjure wind, you could make it pretty strong. Thus, wind extinguishes fire.

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I considered that, but that's a very sketchy reasoning because if that were true then it wouldn't matter what element you used because anything in a large enough quantity will trump anything. Fire could also evaporate Water if you can conjure a 7000 degree fireball.

We also don't have the issue XI had where "Even against a Ice mob, Thunder is stronger than Earth because the higher damage output overpowers the resistance factor". I think that with exception of the unique cases (Bombs being weak to fire, etc) the monsters should follow more logical resistance pattern since all spells are of pretty much equal strength. As a conjurer 90% of the time a Water based monster should be weak to Thunder (or Ice whatever they decide).

Ever seen a wildfire on a windy day? The wind only causes the fire to spread and grow twice as fast.

So yeah, wind trumping fire does feel a bit flawed, especially considering that water is clearly the more effective choice in regards to common sense.

Think of the wind as suffocating the flame instead of fanning it.

Look if we want to get really technical the circle of elements doesn't work on a physical scale. Water is matter, fire is energy. Earth is matter, lightning is energy.

We have to think of them as magic and not necessarily following natural phenomena. For example fire must have something to burn to exist. Yet we create it out of the aether along with mass like water. Its magic.

You're right the description is poor when comparing to what can actually happens, but they're just the teachings and reminders to help people remember. How they actually effect eachother "magically" could be very different.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Wind, with enough force, can put out fire. I would imagine if you could conjure wind, you could make it pretty strong. Thus, wind extinguishes fire.

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if thats SE's logic then next their gonna say we can start fire by fiercely rubbing our hands together, logically possible but something wrong there.

Shall I blow out the candles on my cake?

Or shall I dump a bucket of water on it?

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Originally Posted by Deceptistar

if thats SE's logic then next their gonna say we can start fire by fiercely rubbing our hands together, logically possible but something wrong there.

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*Points to post above yours.*

A wizard did it. Therefore, Newtonian physics and logic based on it don't necessarily apply.

People forget something about wind elements in fantasy games like these.

Wind is not gonna be a nice breeze that'll fan you.

Wind is going to either cut you to complete shreds, or it'll suffocate you. For fire, the suffocation logic works completely fine. Water erodes earth.

The wind→fire relationship doesn't bother me so much as the fact that the elements don't go in a wheel anymore. In XI you had the repeating circle of fire→ice→wind→earth→lightning→water→fire, and it seemed more balanced.

Also there was the neat coincidence that connecting the astral(fire, wind, lightning) or umbral(ice, earth, water) elements made triangles because there was exactly one element in between each of them. XIV's two seperate wheels aren't balanced the same way.

'cause ifrit.

although you CAN blow out a candle right? hardy har har

If the wind is sharp and strong enough to actually do any damage at all to your average Coblyn I'd say it'd be pretty good for quenching flames.

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Originally Posted by Misteyes

If the wind is sharp and strong enough to actually do any damage at all to your average Coblyn I'd say it'd be pretty good for quenching flames.

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Tornados do plenty of damage to lots of things and are wind based. :P Wind inflicts damage by slicing/carving/force or by carrying objects and dealing damage. Although I honestly don't know what has happened when a tornado meets an equally sized inferno and that now has peaked my curiousity. However:

Forest Fires can become so strong that the speed at which they burn actually sucks air forcibly into the center creating a fire wind. In extreme cases these fire winds can cross forming small tornados of fire.

The idea about wind being used to remove the air from a fire was very interesting and I never thought of it that way. Unequal match ups (blowing out candles) will always occur (throwing a single bucket of water or dirt at a house fire isn't going to do much good either).

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Neptune

'cause ifrit.

although you CAN blow out a candle right? hardy har har

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If Garuda can "blow out" Ifrit's flame I will be thoroughly disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Razor

If Garuda can "blow out" Ifrit's flame I will be thoroughly disappointed.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qTLp2EwAOQ

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Originally Posted by Razor

Tornados do plenty of damage to lots of things and are wind based. :P Wind inflicts damage by slicing/carving/force or by carrying objects and dealing damage. Although I honestly don't know what has happened when a tornado meets an equally sized inferno and that now has peaked my curiousity. However:

Forest Fires can become so strong that the speed at which they burn actually sucks air forcibly into the center creating a fire wind. In extreme cases these fire winds can cross forming small tornados of fire.

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There's a difference in magnitude there. Since the spells are equal in the amount of damage they do and not on how commonly the effect would appear in nature, I think it's totally fine that Wind beats Fire. Setting someone on fire does plenty of damage, even if it's just on the scale of a campfire - the "Fire II" spell might be just that. It doesn't have to be on the scale of a forest fire.

On the other hand, a little gust of wind would do any damage, so "Aero II" must be, as you described it, tornado-level winds. Seems totally reasonable that would beat fire elementals. Not sure about the other fire enemies.

I see more strangeness in wind being a damage type at all than it beating fire.

If we are getting all logical about fire getting bigger with wind...you are assuming this wind contains oxygen. Wind is just the flow of gases.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

Ever seen a wildfire on a windy day? The wind only causes the fire to spread and grow twice as fast.

So yeah, wind trumping fire does feel a bit flawed, especially considering that water is clearly the more effective choice in regards to common sense.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Think of the wind as suffocating the flame instead of fanning it.

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I agree with Grumel. Your using the power of wind. No one ever said your literally calling a stiff breeze on your enemies. Controling wind can mean a gale force attack, or to remove all air. Look at the DoT/debuff for wind, it is called Choke

Deal with it. It's different, I like it.

Does this really matter that much to make a post about it? You really feel 'strongly' about this? Clearly this is gamebreaking... for you apparently... i guess... or something


Reference post #2 - #mine... blow out my birthday cake candles?

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Does this really matter that much to make a post about it? You really feel 'strongly' about this? Clearly this is gamebreaking... for you apparently... i guess... or something


Reference post #2 - #mine... blow out my birthday cake candles?

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@ Candle comment

Try blowing out a campfire.

Although technically in that case earth would be more effective to smother the flames out...

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

@ Candle comment

Try blowing out a campfire.

Although technically in that case earth would be more effective to smother the flames out...

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Umm.. if you're speaking in terms of magic.. when I cast 'Aero' it's dealing damage via wind. I would hope to f*cking God that my magical powers were stronger than me blowing wind out of my mouth.

Yah... casting Aero =/= blowing air out of my mouth. Example from real world to explain how "wind" puts out "fire". Then again almost anything can put out fire... earth (dirt), ice (giant ice cube?), water, fire (backdraft style), lightning.. probably not lightning. You get the point.