Stone, Sky, & Sea As A DF Requirement

I didn't see a "Trials/Raids" forum so I'm posting here.

With the release of Stone, Sky, & Sea we now have a solid metric in the game to test individual readiness for content. Ideally the system can be expanded to mimic mechanics and throw that in as part of the test process.

With a fairly solid base test in the form of these solo challenges, we may be able to solve the problem of time commitment vs readiness in forming groups for endgame content.

Can we please make a SSS clear requirement for all non-story DF trials and raids (not the 24-man kind)? (players with clear achievements from the duty itself pre-qualify)

This would allow us to add even endgame content to the duty finder. The only people in queue will have proven themselves capable of carrying their own weight, making forming parties a safer prospect for everyone involved. Players who don't have the consistent time commitment needed for a premade raid group would finally have a reliable way of grouping for this content.

If SSS can also mimick mechanics, this eases the strain of learning. Currently you need a PF learning party, which people are unlikely to go for. It takes 7 other people's time just to show you the fight. You typically have no way of getting the experience/practice you need against them simply due to lack of people doing the same or willing to go with you, or due to the others you CAN find being far slower learners unable to push the battle forward. With a solo version of it, you could acclimate and remove the current barrier to entry of PF groups looking for only people who have already cleared.


Basically, if SSS can create well-emulated scaled solo versions of raid encounters, it can be used as the gate for the real thing, finally solving the problem of perfectly competent players unable to complete endgame content due to lack of time commitment or necessary connections.

I certainly think being able to set an SSS filter for PF'ers (and DF'ers (?) in theory) is a good idea. Having it as the absolute minimum bar for an encounter makes perfect sense to me; but, i'm struggling to imagine how it could evolve to the point where it's able to reasonably emulate any sort of raid encounter.

There are things i can see it doing to increase the difficulty, like maybe having the dummy change to face a random direction (only really applicable to melee dps), or "jump" at fixed intervals, or maybe even apply an encounter specific debuff like cursed voice from T7 (off the top of my head). None of those things come close to accurately representing any particular encounter though.

The "group jump rope" design (as it's commonly called) makes this raid-emulator idea hard for me to imagine. Can you maybe elaborate on your vision a little? Give us some examples or fight parallels?

I don't know about having it as a DF requirement, might be worth being an option on PF

my consider would be how SSS has been implemented

if its just a static/passive dummy with the def/eva values of the content then the whole system is pointless because all you are test is your rotations and your gear is good enough for the content.

if its an active dummy that can potently kill you (aka testing your rotations under stress) would be more useful

I'm hoping it's active so it can serve this purpose.

A lot of mechanics could be simulated by spawning allied dummies as part of them. A Rammuh EX test would spawn a dummy and seduce it. If you fail to break it out, that dummy explodes and wipes you for a fail. Likewise it could chain you to a dummy and have you pick up orbs to free yourself and be able to continue. It might even spawn normal and green orbs throughout to represent the ones taken by the tank, meaning you need to take all non-green extras as they spawn (the green ones would disappear automatically after a bit, or have a dummy spawn on them to "eat" them). Too many out at once would just be insta-fail for the sake of a rough simulation, and eating 3 at once in the DPS test would also fail you since you generally only want to clear 2 extras per person.

In the tank version of the test, it would mainly just be shock striking. With orbs, the test version would do 0 damage. Without, it would kill. Occasionally, a surge-protected dummy would spawn with aggro to represent the tank swap, giving you time to wait out your buff, pick up some more orbs, and provoke the main target dummy before it shock strikes the expired buff dummy (making it explode for fail wipe).

Basically all allied dummies that you need to keep alive or else they explode and you fail. Healer mechanics purging debuffs or maintaining/emergency healing a tank dummy, it's all doable.


Think of the gatekeeper from TSW. role-based solo trials that simulate common mechanics you will have to deal with in the hard dungeons it unlocks.

Just rewatched that part of the patch video and..... it looks like a passive dummy

I just hope that I'm wrong and it not showing the full system.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Think of the gatekeeper from TSW. role-based solo trials that simulate common mechanics you will have to deal with in the hard dungeons it unlocks.

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I love the Gatekeeper, but it doesn't really seem to have served the purpose of preparing people for NM dungeons--nearly all nightmare shouts continue to have absurd AR/HR requirements that are way, way above what you need, because clearing Gatekeeper apparently isn't enough of a barrier to ensure #gitgud quality.

That said, I still think S3 should be a requirement for unlocking the queue option for content. If you can at least clear the DPS check, you should be 90% of the way there, and most players simply can't.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

if its an active dummy that can potently kill you (aka testing your rotations under stress) would be more useful

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Basically what I was advocating in another thread before everyone shot it down :(

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I love the Gatekeeper, but it doesn't really seem to have served the purpose of preparing people for NM dungeons--nearly all nightmare shouts continue to have absurd AR/HR requirements that are way, way above what you need, because clearing Gatekeeper apparently isn't enough of a barrier to ensure #gitgud quality.

That said, I still think S3 should be a requirement for unlocking the queue option for content. If you can at least clear the DPS check, you should be 90% of the way there, and most players simply can't.

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Yeah, I mean even if it is raw DPS that still fits as a bare minimum. And you can check for accuracy requirements on ones like A4S dummy. It would just be so much better as a mini solo version of the actual trial.

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Originally Posted by Dalex

Basically what I was advocating in another thread before everyone shot it down :(

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Not even one that can kill you through normal means. Just several fail conditions as instant wipes, and all other attacks required for mechanics reduced to 1 damage if you do them properly. Healer trials would be the only ones that need real damage on the player. Keep themselves alive along with dummies.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

Just rewatched that part of the patch video and..... it looks like a passive dummy

I just hope that I'm wrong and it not showing the full system.

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There are multiple SSS dummies and I believe what was shown is the basic one.

From the way they mentioned it earlier it sounds like there will be mechanics to them but things can change - will see.

So it seems they're resistant to making this a requirement. Why? There's no elitism in checking for a bare minimum contribution from each player. It's not like it would display your exact score/remaining time for all to see, just a quick yes/no requirement to join the duty. Letting players who can't clear it lie in PF to try and trick people into a free carry causes a ton more strife than locking players out of content until they improve their skill/gear enough to do it.

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Originally Posted by Dalex

Basically what I was advocating in another thread before everyone shot it down :(

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OK hear is my issue

I'm a level 60 BLM

Vs a static dummy I can do the enochian combo perfectly fine with no issues

Vs Waukkeon, my combo execution just goes to Jelly and i end up with enochian dropping with 35 seconds remaining on recast (yes i know learn the bloody fight)

(Ok a little of extreme example)

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Originally Posted by Callback

So it seems they're resistant to making this a requirement. Why? There's no elitism in checking for a bare minimum contribution from each player. It's not like it would display your exact score/remaining time for all to see, just a quick yes/no requirement to join the duty. Letting players who can't clear it lie in PF to try and trick people into a free carry causes a ton more strife than locking players out of content until they improve their skill/gear enough to do it.

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Simple people will start butting things like must have done SSS with 2 mins left or something like that. if you don't like the idea of FFlogs some site will be up that will post peoples screenshots of their clear times for this. Besides most current content you can't even be carried as it requires all 8 people doing their jobs

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Simple people will start butting things like must have done SSS with 2 mins left or something like that. if you don't like the idea of FFlogs some site will be up that will post peoples screenshots of their clear times for this. Besides most current content you can't even be carried as it requires all 8 people doing their jobs

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I know groups will ask for more, but I don't know why YoshiP resists making just the basic clear a requirement for joining, especially for DF. DF wouldn't be so hated if it at least verified a minimum capability. That was supposed to be the point of having min ilvl requirements on duties. Doing S3 clear requirements does a much better job to ensure the system can create capable parties.

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Originally Posted by Callback

I know groups will ask for more, but I don't know why YoshiP resists making just the basic clear a requirement for joining, especially for DF. DF wouldn't be so hated if it at least verified a minimum capability. That was supposed to be the point of having min ilvl requirements on duties. Doing S3 clear requirements does a much better job to ensure the system can create capable parties.

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Especially considering the most common reason groups fail is because DPS aren't doing their job. They're either ignoring mechanics, or just straight up doing a third of the damage their job is capable of.

New savage-tier content shouldn't even unlock in the duty list until you've completed the S3 for it, that would make everyone's life so much easier.

I can only see NM being ungated by SSS, as that's the casual raid content. As for Savage, SSS would be able to work as a gate, at least. However, what I'm curious about is how SE is going to handle each role correctly, as different classes may have a harder time(i.e. If it's just DPS, then AST/WHM/SCH will have a harder time completing the trial compared to Tanks and DPS).

I think it's better to just sit and wait until the 23rd comes by so we can actually get started discussing that and making suggestions.

I think it will be better to use the Training System which is too be implemented at 3.2 as a df requirement, before people enter Sastasha, they must first pass all the challenges for their role, given the gear they are needed (I see tanks and Melee DPS wearing robes WAY too often) and be taught the skills that's needed to function as their role. SSS should just be about testing your DPS in content to see if it's adequate enough (because there will always be cases of physical disabilities, impairments or other conditions that can hold back the person from doing a full rotation. While cases are few and far between, they are still people that would like to beat this content), while the Training System teaches people the basics, but allows a lot to be improved upon.

The problem with using SSS as a pre-cursor to joining anything in DF is this:

The Main Story Quest relies heavily on sending players to DF to run almost every instance. Can't get past SSS = can't continue with story.

Solution 1: "Make SSS meaningless by dumbing it down to where 100% of players can qualify"

Solution 2: "Don't make SSS a requirement for DF".

Which one are you going to pick?

Selling SSS carries, don't let those meanie elitists try to filter you out of their Savage weekly!

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The Main Story Quest relies heavily on sending players to DF to run almost every instance. Can't get past SSS = can't continue with story.

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Show me the MSQ where you have to complete Alex Savage in order to progress. Everyone advocating S3 as a DF prerequisite is talking about content where one bad player can ruin a run, and it's almost invariably because people can't meet the DPS checks required of them.

There's a fine line between making a dummy for DPS and exposing mechanics. The purpose of SSS (based on what we've seen) is just to check if you have enough DPS for the fight. We can assume that the dummy takes into account the fact that you'll be doing mechanics and not DPSing or DPSing while you are doing mechanics when they are given whatever HP they are given. So even without mechanics, it can still gauge you as if mechanics were happening.


However, SSS would be upsetting if it revealed all the mechanics of an instance for you to practice without being in the instance itself. This might not be an issue with some people, but it is with others. And while this probably isn't the reason mechanics are absent, it is something those people are thankful for. Yes, it would be great to have mechanics in there for some. Some one a way to practice DPSing while they are doing mechanics at the same time, but you can already do that in the fight itself. SSS is strictly to check if you have the gear and rotation to take down a fight. It's so you know you that your gear and rotation aren't holding you back. That's literally it. It's so people can't QQ that A4S was impossible with the gear at the time.

Will it work? Is it attuned correctly? We'll find out in a few days.