The Price History in the New Market System Needs to be a Lot More Than 20

The price history needs to go a lot further than the past 20 auctions in order to prevent price manipulation.

Blue Gartr Interview:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/107497-FFXIV-Naoki-Yoshida-Interview-Transcription

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some of the major changes we will be making includes a more advanced player search and to get a market system as close to the Final Fantasy XI auction house as possible. This would be where you could search for an item, and then buy that item, or see the past 20 auctions.

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While having a price history is great, and a very good first step, you can't stop with only 20.

With such a limited history, goods can be repeatedly bought and sold for non-market value prices on purpose by a player or group of players in order to artificially inflate the price of a particular good.

For example:

Say an Iron Axe is normally sold at the wards for about 10,000 gil. Anyone checking the price history could see that the past 20 axes have been sold for around 10,000 gil. However, I come in and repeatedly buy and sell the axe using a friend or an alt for 25,000 gil 20 times. I then list all my Iron Axes for sale at 25,000 and any new buyers and sellers looking at the price history think that the axe is worth 25,000 gil when it really isn't.

This was somewhat of a problem in FF11, and it can potentially be a problem in FF14.


There are a few differences and safeguards, however. I assume that the item search will still be around so that people can see the actual prices that the players are listing their items, so if the price history shows a history of overpriced sales, but someone still lists their item at the normal price, then there's nothing stopping the customer from getting to that purchase.

This is better than the FF11 auction house because the ambiguous "auction" part of the transaction is eliminated, which cuts out another avenue for price manipulation due to customer ignorance.

When I see this quote:

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to get a market system as close to the Final Fantasy XI auction house as possible.

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I hope that it just doesn't carry over the features that made price manipulation possible.

I would keep item search, let people buy items directly from the item search menu, and then implement a price history that goes back for an entire month, at least.

I said it in the JP side but hope they change this... I'm for AH system but FFXI's AH system imo sucked.

meh to price histories as a whole. usually leads to more problems then it solves.

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Originally Posted by Physic

meh to price histories as a whole. usually leads to more problems then it solves.

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How so?

From my point of view, it adds to more functionality and easier access to economic participation.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

How so?

From my point of view, it adds to more functionality and easier access to economic participation.

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The only thing price history offers, is a quick way to see what items may be worth right now. However, being able to see every price that ever was generally leads to a downward spiral of pricing, especially when you dont have blind bidding.

Undercutting is the only way to compete, and so prices get insanely low, until people stop selling the item, but even when they do, they are still effected by the old price. At least now, when all of an item sells out, its up to the players to decided thier worth selling and buying. I have seen in the current system some items spike down, due to short term forces, then spike back up, to apparently closer to their actual worth, its a lot slower with price histories.

All it does is give newbs to selling their item a price point when no one else is selling the item, is that really worth the hassle? I really see a very limited advantage to it.

I kind of wanted more of DDO type auction, heard WoW had similar one but better features.
If the item is up on the market you can try to compare/compete with that price but if there is none up on the auction you as a seller have to decide what the value is since it doesn't show any history. If you're not watching the market carefully you may sell the item say 100k item for 20k or on the other hand if you are a buyer and not watching the market carefully you will spend more on something when the average is much lower, if the item is a regularly circulated item the price will stay unless some noob undercuts but again if at any point that item stops showing up on the market due to server resets and stuff the auction starts again from default, or another price unless person selling puts it up for the same undercut price.... hope you can understand what I'm trying to explain lol

The more information the merrier.

Every MMO should just copy and paste EVE Online's market system. It is, by far, the most comprehensive economy I've ever seen in an MMO. It is truly amazing the amount of information you can gather, and understanding/exploiting it can make you e-rich very quickly. I really see no problem with economic manipulation, but I understand the concern. I will say that it takes far more patience, dedication, and risk to participate in economic PVP than going into an instance and slaying a dragon. You can literally risk everything and become massively wealthy overnight, or lose everything you've worked for in a few hours.

I'm all for price transparency and blah blah blah, but I put up my crap on my retainer before I go to bed, and by the time I wake up in the morning, nothing has sold because people decided to undercut 4k or more less. I'm not talking about materia and crap, I'm talking gathered items and such. Inflation is a problem, but you guys also forget deflation isn't healthy either, then no one can make money, not even people who just want to get on and sell a few things.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

With such a limited history, goods can be repeatedly bought and sold for non-market value prices on purpose by a player or group of players in order to artificially inflate the price of a particular good.

For example:

Say an Iron Axe is normally sold at the wards for about 10,000 gil. Anyone checking the price history could see that the past 20 axes have been sold for around 10,000 gil. However, I come in and repeatedly buy and sell the axe using a friend or an alt for 25,000 gil 20 times. I then list all my Iron Axes for sale at 25,000 and any new buyers and sellers looking at the price history think that the axe is worth 25,000 gil when it really isn't.

This was somewhat of a problem in FF11, and it can potentially be a problem in FF14.


This is better than the FF11 auction house because the ambiguous "auction" part of the transaction is eliminated, which cuts out another avenue for price manipulation due to customer ignorance.

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There's one problem with this. When someone sells axes at 10,000 gil, that is the price the producer/supplier is willing to sell at. If there are 10 axes, and 15 people willing to purchase the axes, the price is low. Ten players will benefit from the lower price, and 5 people will lose out. Some of those 5 people may have valued those axes at a higher price, and would have been willing to pay a higher price. The supplier is the one who is ignorant of their customers, and because of this, some of the axes go to the players who 'got there first' rather than the players who valued them the most.

When a player purchases these axes and then bids the price up, they are actually ensuring that those axes first go to those players who place the highest value on them. And by doing so, actually help facilitate the economy.

In a free market, NO ABUSE CAN TAKE PLACE. Because the transactions are all voluntary, you can simply avoid purchasing. If, for example, there's only one axe available for your level and you absolutely need it to continue, then rather than being gouged, the person buying and bidding up the prices is actually helping you by ensuring that noone who places a lesser value on the axes purchases them before you. If the price is too high for anyone, then the person bidding up items might lose gil, so there is a built-in incentive to prevent that.

Price histories can be both good and bad. But they can't be abused in a free market. The good is, you can see in the past how much something was worth and you can make a decision on whether to buy now or wait. They can be bad, because it can alter the perception of some people and promote more arbitrary prices instead, as it does not reflect current circumstances of the market. An example would be, one of the main crafters of a server is very effecient at producing axes and has mass produced them at a low price for several months. Suddenly he quits, and now the only remaining crafters available cannot make the item for so low. Naturally the price should rise, but the price history would make players less likely to purchase at the new value, and would also prevent some crafters from supplying at the new value.

I agree that its a mistake for the development team to add something similar to FF11, they should be looking more at how WoW's system works, no price history (unless you use addons) and you have to compete againts what is currently being sold.

It's kind of similar to the marketwards with much much better search features and functionality.

Part of me is happy for price history because now at least I know as a buyer if im being ripped off and as a seller know what to sell an item for.

Problem is as someone else said a large price history will have a downward spiral effect on the price of items until they are no longer viable to make money on.

Really sad they thought FF11's AH was the best choice to copy, why is it SE can't look at other games to get idea's, FF11 is 10 years old for crying out loud !!

What if the price history was setup to take the last 50 purchases to display only the mean average price of all 50? So all you see is one average selling price. That way, it would discourage players from altering/monopoling certain items' value by making them have to spend more time buying out these items to try and affect the mean average to the point of exhaustion. The higher the price history number the better (50-100).

I hope so...i hated when i got to FFXI and there were the same dude selling to his mule the item 10x by a rip-off amount.

Price history is stupid IMO...if they want this, then add a price curve, not price history...maybe making an average curve point per day...so even if someone sell it too uncerpriced or overpriced, the average reference would stay.

do NOT want! we need price manipulation to be able to have an unstable market, if it gets stable with set prices, affording things will become impossible. Thanks to this system i will have to use a mule to sell/buy same item 20 times so people wont see the old price, annoying, kinda! :(

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Originally Posted by Zaireeka2025

What if the price history was setup to take the last 50 purchases to display only the mean average price of all 50? So all you see is one average selling price. That way, it would discourage players from altering/monopoling certain items' value by making them have to spend more time buying out these items to try and affect the mean average to the point of exhaustion. The higher the price history number the better (50-100).

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I think this is the best option, we shoudln't beable to see individual sales just an average number based on an invisable history kind of thing.

That way people can get some kind of idea of an items value but not enough information to manipulate the system.

I get the feelin no matter what we suggest here it won't matter, community devs if you are reading this I hope you at least pass this information onto the dev team before its too late.

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

The more information the merrier.

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Lol, that's what you'd assume.

The more information there is available, the more difficult it is to compete in the economy. Right now it may be too cumbersome (means better profits for me though), but going to the opposite extreme where everything is transparent will only make actually profiting off anything a massive headache.

I say a true auction house system with some actual fees (inventory fee, progressive rate fee, delivery fee, and even a late-pickup fee) and a history graph would be the best fit out there.

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Originally Posted by Physic

meh to price histories as a whole. usually leads to more problems then it solves.

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Always good to know who the price manipulators are. *wink*

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

I kind of wanted more of DDO type auction, heard WoW had similar one but better features.
... lol

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This game has been WoW-ized too much as it is. If people are so in love with WoW, play WoW, but leave FF alone...please.

I'm all for the above idea of an average price listing, but I also liked the aspect from XI where you couldn't see exactly what the sellers put their wares up for. As is now, everyone just tries to undercut one another into oblivion

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Originally Posted by Roaran

In a free market, NO ABUSE CAN TAKE PLACE. Because the transactions are all voluntary, you can simply avoid purchasing.

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Apparently you weren't a victim of the inflation/deflation cycle in FFXI.

Well perhaps victim is a bit strong, but it wasn't fun either. Full disclosure is the ONLY way to go or it accomplishes nothing. A free market means an open market with access to ALL buy/sell information, which is why I tore my hair out at the beginning of U.S. beta testing because we didn't have an AH or mail delivery system (and got flamed to hell and gone for it too).

Guess I wasn't so stupid after all. Now if I can just get them to back up off the bastardization of the game via even more WoW-ing up to please the tweener masses, and I may just stick around and play this thing through until they crash and burn or end up with a playable game. My curiosity is beginning to get the better of me...

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I think this is the best option, we shoudln't beable to see individual sales just an average number based on an invisable history kind of thing.

That way people can get some kind of idea of an items value but not enough information to manipulate the system.

I get the feelin no matter what we suggest here it won't matter, community devs if you are reading this I hope you at least pass this information onto the dev team before its too late.

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NOPE! XI style is the only way to go. Not only could you see who was selling but who was buying. True, some of the ultra tight Japanese corporate guilds will be able to cover their actions to some extent on some items, but in XI it got pretty easy to tell who the manipulators were, and there are ways to deal with them. A curve is tempting at first glance, but full transparency over long periods of time and purchase is the only way to go.

It is great that the Markets will remain open, despite the taxes. It's too bad there are no tax free areas, like when everyone could stand outside Jeuno and sell tax free. I find myself becoming very nostalgic for that game, which suddenly, despite its complications, cliques and clutter, was my second home for a few good years and made a lot more sense than this "Japan does WoW" that XIV has become.

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Originally Posted by Nayt

I'm all for the above idea of an average price listing, but I also liked the aspect from XI where you couldn't see exactly what the sellers put their wares up for. As is now, everyone just tries to undercut one another into oblivion

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"Undercutting" is natural. It's the process by which an ever growing number of goods is capable of getting into a larger number of hands. If all the goods that were up for sale were not being under cut, you would always have a surplus, and there would always be a chunk of goods that never sells. This would potentially mean yours as well.

If you think people are pricing way too low, just buy it out and resell it. And if you aren't able to resell it, at your price, the undercutter actually had the correct price and your's was too high.

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Originally Posted by Solfleur

Apparently you weren't a victim of the inflation/deflation cycle in FFXI.

Well perhaps victim is a bit strong, but it wasn't fun either. Full disclosure is the ONLY way to go or it accomplishes nothing. A free market means an open market with access to ALL buy/sell information, which is why I tore my hair out at the beginning of U.S. beta testing because we didn't have an AH or mail delivery system (and got flamed to hell and gone for it too).

Guess I wasn't so stupid after all. Now if I can just get them to back up off the bastardization of the game via even more WoW-ing up to please the tweener masses, and I may just stick around and play this thing through until they crash and burn or end up with a playable game. My curiosity is beginning to get the better of me...

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I don't really see how you could have an 'inflation/deflation cycle' in an MMO unless, with each update, the developers continually tweak the money supply. Which has sort of happened in FFXIV. They just reduced the rate at which currency was entering the economy. It's hard to tell if there was really any inflation, because you would also need to know the number of goods that currency was being used to purchase.

Prices can go up and down due to supply and demand; this is not inflation. Price histories do not reflect supply and demand unless they show extremely long trends. And in the end, price is determined by the value placed on the item by the purchasers and the price suppliers are willing to bring that item to market: i.e. if someone is 'gouging' prices and people are still willing to purchase at that price, then the market is still perfectly fine. Items should go to those who place the highest value on an item.

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Originally Posted by Solfleur

This game has been WoW-ized too much as it is. If people are so in love with WoW, play WoW, but leave FF alone...please.

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Sorry but I never played WoW and don't think I ever will since I can't stand WoW's character designs, and I played FFXI and liked it a lot but I'm not as much of a fan boy as you I guess played it for at least 8 years, it was a good game but it had lots of flaws.

Now only reason I brought up WoW is because I have played DDO and I liked that auction system and heard from friends in FFXI that WoW system is much better version of it.

WoW-ized to much... LMAO more like trying to become like a good successful MMO imo.
I would pay to play WoW if it had FFXIV/Japanese style art/graphics.

Seeing the prices is the best thing about the market wards. Undercutting is awesome, cause nothing in this game should be over 10k gil because it so easy to get everything.

Well, my idea of showing an average mean price of the last 50-100 purchases would also involve showing a list of current prices of available wares. So the player would have the option of undercutting the current items for sale, as well as seeing what the average selling price was, making it hard for ppl to overprice their items and allowing ppl to sell items that are currently unavailable in the marketplace by seeing the average mean price it sold for. Bam! Problem solved. I know I'm awesome.

This could all be checked via your Moogle Companion. Check it out :p

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Originally Posted by Physic

The only thing price history offers, is a quick way to see what items may be worth right now. However, being able to see every price that ever was generally leads to a downward spiral of pricing, especially when you dont have blind bidding.

Undercutting is the only way to compete, and so prices get insanely low, until people stop selling the item, but even when they do, they are still effected by the old price.

All it does is give newbs to selling their item a price point when no one else is selling the item, is that really worth the hassle?

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Um yeah, it's called supply and demand. It's kind like the entire foundation of economics....

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Originally Posted by Solfleur

Apparently you weren't a victim of the inflation/deflation cycle in FFXI.

Well perhaps victim is a bit strong, but it wasn't fun either. Full disclosure is the ONLY way to go or it accomplishes nothing. A free market means an open market with access to ALL buy/sell information, which is why I tore my hair out at the beginning of U.S. beta testing because we didn't have an AH or mail delivery system (and got flamed to hell and gone for it too).

Guess I wasn't so stupid after all. Now if I can just get them to back up off the bastardization of the game via even more WoW-ing up to please the tweener masses, and I may just stick around and play this thing through until they crash and burn or end up with a playable game. My curiosity is beginning to get the better of me...

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Good luck, because if Yoshi looked at the XI auction house at all he probably said no thanks.

YOSHI P

Please copy and paste what Vindictus has for its marketplace, it has the perfect price history IMO, for those that don't know, it shows the highest selling price, the lowest selling price and the average.

When you put an item up for sale it auto fills the average server price in and then the player can alter the amount as they see fit.

This gives both types of players enough information to sell their items.

Some pics

All Inventory items have the marketplace value on them.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6460/inva.jpg

Marketplace User Interface
Simple, clean, has search boxes and easy to select categories.
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8489/mp2ww.jpg

Marketplace Values and listing options
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9553/mp1g.jpg

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Originally Posted by UnsayMoon

Um yeah, it's called supply and demand. It's kind like the entire foundation of economics....

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supply and demand doesnt come with a manual in real life. Companies spend great amounts of time and effort researching price points, and trying to figure out how much a service is worth, they also have to pay someone to research the going rate on any good and service, breaking also down to region, and trends, they dont have an automatic guide, and they probably wouldnt want one, because it would essentially fix prices and not give them the elasticity they would like to see.

also, supply and demand when given full transparencies, kills most businesses and leads to monopolies and horizontal monopolies. Unaided Target or something target like will kill all other businesses that are smaller simply because of ecomony of scale, and a higher overall capital

economics isnt some simple thing that only has two variables, and will automaticly work itself out, it needs a fair amount of law and checks and balances to exist. And its a lot harder in a videogame, which doesnt have a lot of the factors that mitigate it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Supply and demand doesnt come with a manual in real life.

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Well, it sort of does. If you bring something to market, you are the supplier. Now, it took some effort to produce the materials or item you want to sell; and, because you're not supplying the economy of items for charity or the goodness of your heart, you seek to be compensated for your effort. Thus, you place a price on the item yourself in proportion to the effort you put into producing the item. The money price is just a representation of all the things you think you should be able to recieve for your effort. If you do not feel your effort is being rewarded, (the price you place on the item is higher than what others are willing to buy it for) you will stop supplying the item.

Most people would call this 'common sense' but it always ends up being quite a lengthy explanation.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Companies spend great amounts of time and effort researching price points, and trying to figure out how much a service is worth, they also have to pay someone to research the going rate on any good and service, breaking also down to region, and trends, they dont have an automatic guide, and they probably wouldnt want one, because it would essentially fix prices and not give them the elasticity they would like to see.

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Well, companies do spend some time and effort researching their pricing, yet it's fairly simple-minded. They seek to maximize profits. If you've ever made it through calculus, there's a great deal of time spent on maximization, and it is not that complicated at all. The problem lies in knowing beforehand how many people will want your service and at what price. A business already in operation has a wealth of experience to draw from, and can actually create formulas that accurately predict certain fluctuations.

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Originally Posted by Physic

also, supply and demand when given full transparencies, kills most businesses and leads to monopolies and horizontal monopolies. Unaided Target or something target like will kill all other businesses that are smaller simply because of ecomony of scale, and a higher overall capital

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It is true, that most businesses crash and burn in a free market. If we all started a business tomorrow, what is the best rule to determine who should stay in business and who should not? In a free market effeciency is the rule. And because of that one rule, the standard of living in America rose above all other countries, and, subsequently, the rest of the world has started to follow.

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Originally Posted by Physic

economics isnt some simple thing that only has two variables, and will automaticly work itself out, it needs a fair amount of law and checks and balances to exist. And its a lot harder in a videogame, which doesnt have a lot of the factors that mitigate it.

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And I don't really know if this is true. The world left to its own operations, without harmful disturbances (government or criminal), naturally provides an environment condusive to economic activity. Replicating it must be difficult... despite its flaws FFXIV has one of the best markets of any MMO..... I just wish I could take my large wad of gil and put it to use...