So, haven't really been to tank forums in a while, so haven't read up on things. So I have no idea on pld's since I haven't got it to 60.
But just a question regarding Paladin's aoe enmity.
I just went on a soloque Expert roulet and had a pld tanking, I'm a mnk.
1st pull in Pharo's HM, so thought I might as well go all out on these cause who needs perfect balance for bosses anyway.
->Suddenly I'm tanking everything. Eventhough pld is in shield oath + has flashed so much that he has no MP left.
Sooo.
Does it matter that pld has only fending accessories, or does str affect the amount of enmity generated by a flash or is it just based on ilvl of the weapon (we both had i200 wepaons)
Cause it feels broken that pld can't keep up with a mank aoe burst enmity wise, no other tank has had problems, even with full fending.
Pld Aoe enmity
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02-10-2016, 11:55 PMAniCelestinePld Aoe enmity
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02-10-2016, 11:57 PMAshelia_Ferron
Flash enmity scales off STR right now.
Maybe they're just bad, I've never had an issue holding hate in AOE situations as a PLD. -
02-11-2016, 12:22 AMTorunya
You can't base a job's performance on one guy. And it sounds like he did something wrong tbh, as I don't have any trouble keeping hate either as Pld.
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02-11-2016, 12:26 AMKuraiKiserogeruJust because you find 1 fail player, you can't label them all as "broken".Quote:
Originally Posted by AniCelestine
That PLD in your party was useless. -
02-11-2016, 01:11 AMAniCelestine
As far as I knew how to play pld at 50 for aoe enmity it was just, spam flash and then riotblade mp back up, so after flash spam till no MP I would had assumed he's doing it right, guess not then. Do educate me how it could had been different
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02-11-2016, 02:30 AMWolfKid
I've tanked both expert dungeons as a ilvl 195 PLD with higher players before, PLD barely has any problems with AoE threat. Sounds like that player was bad.
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02-11-2016, 03:16 AMSoloNightlock
Was he cracking circle of scorn?
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02-11-2016, 03:24 AMSpookyGhost
Dunno how it is now (imagine it's pretty easy to keep threat), but generally if you lost threat for whatever reason you just Cover the person who took it and Flash/CoS/etc.
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02-11-2016, 03:37 AMChameleonMS
As PLD I open each pull with:
Marking Target Macro on first mob to die > Fight or Flight > Shield Lob > CoS > Flash > Fast Blade (targeting first mob to die) > Riot Blade > Goring Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Rage of Halone > Flash > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Royal Authority (Repeat).
I basically never lose Enmity unless the DPS are single targeting the wrong mob.
FYI, I currently wear all STR accessories due to the current META but that should change to VIT with 3.2. -
02-11-2016, 04:10 AMFebrusFlash has one of the lowest enmity generations out of all of Pld's enmity moves. It scales with Str, but it is very weak. So, a Pld can lose enmity if he/she is purely relying on Flash to hold hate, especially if they are out-geared by any significant margin. Flash does not scale with attack power (it's not considered a physical attack), so the weapon makes no difference, only the amount of Str they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by AniCelestine
Before HW came out, a full-spec'd Pld (ilvl 130) who was running with an average party could hold hate by rotating Shield Lob > FoF > CoS > Flash > Fast Blade > Flash > Riot Blade > Flash > etc. However, if the Dps know what they are doing, spamming flash would not be sufficient. A proper Pld rotation involved using the RoH combo in tandem with Flash.
Both Savage Blade and RoH secure a much higher amount of enmity than Flash can alone, so the proper Pld AoE rotation was: Shield Lob > FoF > CoS > Fast Blade > Flash > Savage Blade (new target) > RoH (new target, priority on physical dmg debuff) > Flash (re-apply blind debuff) > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > RoH > Flash > etc.
The two things to look out for were the number of adds being tanked and the strength of your Dps's AoE's. If you had a Dps in the group who had a very strong AoE rotation, an additional Flash might have been necessary, especially if you were tanking a particularly large group of mobs. RoH can only be rotated so quickly. The more targets there are, the slower the Pld will be at whacking them with a good Savage Blade or RoH. In the meantime, CoS and Flash are the only things holding enmity on those peripheral targets, so if it's a large mob with strong AoE Dps, an extra Flash here or there was fine.
The lvl 60 Pld rotation essentially works the same way, only, once the Pld has secured enmity and applied a few Str down debuffs, they can swap to GB or RA instead of RoH.
This is correct as well. Pld's always have the ability to protect a party member who pulls hate (assuming it is one party member and not several) by using Cover. In fact, it is actually sometimes easier to allow the healer to pull hate while you cover them and then start your AoE rotation. It's called a Proxy Pull. You basically use your party members (usually the healer) as bait to gather all the mobs up in one spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
That said, it does not work out so well if your party members run away from you while you cover them. so telling them you're going to do it is usually a wise move. -
02-11-2016, 07:08 AMAlexiIvaniskavichQuote:
Originally Posted by AniCelestine
ok, this marks the 2nd time in as many days that I have seen this mentioned as an appropriate method for aoe emnity generation on PLD. PLEASE tell me this is not an actual thing.
Use Flash, yes, but spamming until you have no more mana?????? Please, for anyone reading this, if you see someone doing this, HELP THEM. There are many better ways to generate emnity... and spamming a skill that does no damage (and has very weak emnity generation) is a poor way to play your class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
For anyone who thinks mana draining flash is good, please re-read Februs' statement -
02-11-2016, 07:37 AMLaunchedFlash generates 600 potency of enmity, the same as a comboed Savage Blade or Overpower without Maim (and I would assume Unleash without Darkside). Obviously you should try to avoid going completely out of MP by using it, but in any aoe situation like what this thread's about, Flash is easily enough to hold aggro on any pack. Flash's enmity/potency scales with your STR just like damage does.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich
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02-12-2016, 01:31 AMAlexiIvaniskavichGoing to have to ask for your source on this. PLD emnity hasn't changed in FOREVER, and it's been theory crafted before that Flash is far and away the weakest emnity generation (multiplier was mathed at 2x) in comparison to RoH (mathed at 5x of damage [x2 if in shield oath]). http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/#Enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
I realize this link is quite old, but I haven't seen anything worked up recently, likely due to enmity not changing within the game. So if there is a new source for this information I would love for it to be known.
From my understanding, Flash only generates more enmity if you are doing a non combo'd RoH, as the majority of the enmity generation using RoH is based upon the damage it is doing.
***** EDIT ***** Pulling these charts from the link above as a bit of a TL;DR
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02-12-2016, 05:19 AMLaunchedProof that Flash scales with damage stats and tank stance:Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...modifiers_and/
Those images are out of date and Flash got a buff in 2.4, it's in the patch notes. It's not a flat +550 enmity like the picture says, it's pretty much a 600 potency attack that doesn't do any damage but generates enmity (no damage so it doesn't scale with FoF). Apparently there's an enmity plugin for ACT but since parsers aren't allowed I obviously can't show that.
As soon as Chaos servers stop being broken I'm going to log in and compare Flash to Overpower on the enmity list to prove its scaling. -
02-12-2016, 08:26 PMLaunched
http://i.imgur.com/amY9r1q.jpg
I tested by getting someone to hit the dummy a few times then stop attacking so I'd have a static amount of enmity to test against. I used the same gear sets for PLD/WAR, with Thordan axe vs Thordan sword+shield. You can see on the top that by themselves, Flash and Overpower generate the same amount of enmity and we know that Overpower is 120x5, so Flash must be 600 potency. Overpower is slightly weaker in tank stance but gets buffed by Maim.
A Flash in Shield Oath is 600*2.3*0.8=1104 potency of enmity.
Overpower in Defiance with no Maim is 120*5*2.3*0.75= 1035 potency of enmity.
Overpower in Defiance with Maim is 120*5*1.2*2.3*0.75=1242 potency of enmity. -
02-13-2016, 12:09 AMShurrikhan
On average, Flash is about as strong as any other tank AoE. Its only real issues are that it doesn't scale with anything and cannot crit; whereas other tanks could make use of Maim/Darkside and Warrior can pop Berserk with Overpowers to hold threat for 10+ seconds at a time with each AoE strike, Paladin can't build those AoE threat margins nearly so quickly.
Tldr; yes they're inferior, but I would almost have to suspect your PLD had a broken weapon, if not for the lack of complaints of his ST threat. I too pull of PLDs frequently in AoE, but only because those PLDs refused to flash as much as they should. -
02-13-2016, 12:55 AMMalicewolf
Yea, i think it may have been an issue with your PLD, not the PLD move set overall. The ONLY combo I've had real trouble with are monk and blackmage combo that are above ilvl 200 and attacking separate targets while going full out (and I can still usually hold, just on the cusp most of the time). Granted, a good DPS can keep me on my toes in general, but its really all about prioritizing your targets. Spamming flash won't do well against the big hitters. Though, it still should of worked honestly... My guess is either broken gear or your tank JUST made the ilvl while the rest of you had decked out gear. Cause even at ilvl 185, I was able to hold from players using ilvl 205+ (it was just hard).
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02-13-2016, 08:49 AMAniCelestineThere was indeed ST hate problems too, wasn't the main concern since I've had ST issues with other tanks too, even the ones that kept aoe well off of me, but that ST issue with those were mainly warriors not doing opener well and trying to deliverance. (SE please, enmity reduction ability for mnk maybe?), but since when I used to run some roulets as pld at lvl 50 and never have any issues with the flash alot -> riot blade mp back up (apart triple RS no QS flare lol) and the pld in question did flash alot so it seemed really broken. But guess he really was in fact broken. His weapon I mean. /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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02-13-2016, 10:00 AMJim_Berry
I've been posting here about how I am a full VIT PLD. That said, I only would lose hate on a mob if I wasn't putting in work (ie face-pulled instead of Shield Lob). Since I normally take content serious once I enter, I am too focused (if there's no real life distractions), my VIT accessories does not hinder me.
I've seen most PLDs Flash and Scorn, but then they keep the Rage of Halone combo going on one mob while Flashing the other. Instead, once I've settled on the pull with Flash and Scorn, I am bouncing mobs with each attack. I tend to:
Fast Blade the mob I hit with Shield Lob...
Savage Blade the next mob...
Rage of Halone the third mob...
If there's a fourth and fifth mob, I'll Flash again, then Fast Blade the fourth mob, Savage Blade the fifth mob, Rage of Halone the first mob. Very simple for me.