The Point of DRKness

So, I've seen a lot of people making an argument lately that I'm really trying to understand. They're saying that if PLD is buffed in 3.2 and its damage brought closer to par, that playing a DRK will suddenly have no point.

This baffles me.

In my opinion, DRK is a very well-designed job that has a very high skill threshold. Competence and mastery of the job and its mechanics are at a higher level than either of the other tanks, and can be incredibly rewarding. The gameplay is unique and fresh (doing more intensive MP management than healers), they have a strong niche as the anti-magic tank, and the aesthetic and class flavor is extremely consistent and well done.

All around, DRK is just a really fun job, and I have a hard time grasping why someone would give it up.

Does efficiency really trump gameplay in terms of something being enjoyable?

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Does efficiency really trump gameplay in terms of something being enjoyable?

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My theory, from past experience playing WoW, is that one has played all the classes so many times that you get burned out on all of them. Then it just becomes efficiency > fun after that.

As far as DRK goes, I've yet to play it. But if it's anything like death knights in WoW I'll probably like everything about them except the aesthetics (too much emo-goth for my taste), which kills it for me.

If content is physically heavy I'd go PLD...if it's more magical then DRK.

Only thing that baffles me is why they call it Dark Knight instead of Blackguard. The class just feels like a Dark version of Paladin that just specializes in MP management and mitigating magical damage as it's main gimmick.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

The class just feels like a Dark version of Paladin that just specializes in MP management and mitigating magical damage as it's main gimmick.

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You can thank Cecil Harvey for that.

Thing is content is naturally more physical heavy than magical, think about it, how many enemies use only magic? Ramuh, Leviathan's head and A4(s) boss. In these fights DRK will excel over PLD cause PLD brings nothing of value to the table, but in every other fight its reversed, DRK has nothing to match up to the shield, 30% parry rate increase vs. 60% block increase + 100% block every 30 seconds. Block is stronger than parry in every way (rate and strength). If a mob uses physical attacks then any magic attacks are usually just specials making STR down more useful than INT down for overall damage reduction and if you have a MNK then you get both. And now PLD will also bring just as much dps as DRK so it doesn't have that anymore either.

DRK will still be a capable tank, it will be able to handle tanking content using its universal mitigation and dark mind for magical specials, but it will be rare that there's a fight where DRK excels over PLD and WAR. Rune Fencer in ffxi struggles with the same issue.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

You can thank Cecil Harvey for that.

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Nah I can thank the dev team for that. At least Cecil when he ran as a Dark Knight he stayed true to the formula. I don't understand how they could fuck up with past entries with Dark Knight such as Cecil's limited foray in IV, XI and even the recent FF Explorers. Even X-2 did it justice. Baffling.

You know what Class actually sacrifices HP? Black Mage. With Convert. Pfffft.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Thing is content is naturally more physical heavy than magical, think about it, how many enemies use only magic? Ramuh, Leviathan's head and A4(s) boss. In these fights DRK will excel over PLD cause PLD brings nothing of value to the table, but in every other fight its reversed, DRK has nothing to match up to the shield, 30% parry rate increase vs. 60% block increase + 100% block every 30 seconds. Block is stronger than parry in every way (rate and strength). If a mob uses physical attacks then any magic attacks are usually just specials making STR down more useful than INT down for overall damage reduction and if you have a MNK then you get both. And now PLD will also bring just as much dps as DRK so it doesn't have that anymore either.

DRK will still be a capable tank, it will be able to handle tanking content using its universal mitigation and dark mind for magical specials, but it will be rare that there's a fight where DRK excels over PLD and WAR. Rune Fencer in ffxi struggles with the same issue.

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Then the forums will be flooded with cry babies about making DRK stronger.

As a tank, you often have to balance what you'd prefer to do against what a given group wants/expects you to do. For example, the reason that the str/vit gear choice became contentious was because it wasn't just about simply finding the correct choice for the fight and the group. It was also about catering to non-tanks' preconceptions on what that correct gear choice ought to be.

Presently, if you fill the MT slot, you're not just a PLD or a DRK. You're a PLD/DRK. There's a tacit expectation that you'll use whatever is optimum for an encounter (i.e. whatever was used in the world first clear).

For the entirety of ARR and the start of HW, the community felt that PLD was the de facto MT out of necessity because of it's high defense (it has a shield, it must be more defensive, right?) With the advent of A3S and A4S being cleared first on a non-PLD MT, DRK has managed to carve itself a temporary niche as an offensive-orientated alternative for MT (it doesn't have a shield). If you erode that too much, people will fall back on what's comfortable and familiar ("wait, you can't MT this fight on DRK!")

The challenge isn't designing these classes so that they are equally capable of tanking an encounter. The challenge is designing them so that the community perceives them as equally capable of tanking the encounter.

The reason you see people claiming these things is simple. This is a gaming forum, EVERYTHING means the sky is falling. We don't yet know how or what effect the changes will have, so waiting and seeing is the thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

So, I've seen a lot of people making an argument lately that I'm really trying to understand. They're saying that if PLD is buffed in 3.2 and its damage brought closer to par, that playing a DRK will suddenly have no point.

This baffles me.

In my opinion, DRK is a very well-designed job that has a very high skill threshold. Competence and mastery of the job and its mechanics are at a higher level than either of the other tanks, and can be incredibly rewarding. The gameplay is unique and fresh (doing more intensive MP management than healers), they have a strong niche as the anti-magic tank, and the aesthetic and class flavor is extremely consistent and well done.

All around, DRK is just a really fun job, and I have a hard time grasping why someone would give it up.

Does efficiency really trump gameplay in terms of something being enjoyable?

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"Paladins have good damage now! It's the end for Dark Knights! Glug-glug-glug!" In a word: Nonsense. Dark Knights aren't going anywhere. Keep this in mind: Yoshi said flat out in the last letter that Alex Savage was seriously overtuned, and didn't provide equipment that was commiserate with the level of challenge provided. He also said that future raid content would be less difficult. We can take that to mean that if a Dark Knight played well and succeeded in A-S, there's no reason in hell that anyone would deny that player a tanking spot in the newer, easier content, short of everyone in the coil being addicted to sniffing markers and huffing paint fumes out of a garbage can.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only thing that baffles me is why they call it Dark Knight instead of Blackguard. The class just feels like a Dark version of Paladin that just specializes in MP management and mitigating magical damage as it's main gimmick.

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In the Japanese version Paladin is Knight, so... Dark Knight actually makes sense if you follow your own logic. :P

This entire notion that is being perpetuated that DRK is bad anywhere outside of Alex Savage is complete garbage as is the notion that if they buff PLD's damage (PLD is getting adjustments but I highly doubt this means a DPS boost up to DRK/WAR levels... it doesn't make any sense from a design perspective) DRK will be obsolete.

I've offered to go PLD for certain fights for my raid group, and they've all chanted "NO" at the top of their lungs. The fact is DRK proved itself as a tank in the most difficult tier of raids the dev team has put out to date, and they've come right out and said it'll never be that hard again for the foreseeable future. People like to say "oh well its only because blah blah all the fights are magical..." bullshit. A2S was almost 100% physical, A3S for all intents and purposes was 100% physical as well with the sole exception of drainage tethers.

I hope PLD gets some nice buffs too but its a far cry from rendering DRK obsolete. Its an entirely different tank with different utilities. If anything I would hope the pally buffs can make the DRK/PLD comp feasible.

Even if PLD out DPS'ed DRK I still roll DRK over purely for AOE damage and being the only tank with Magic attacks.

Also it's Dark freaking Knight!

because lot of PLD moved to DRK to progress in Alex
if PLD gets buffed, some will go back to PLD
Not sure why this is an issue...

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Originally Posted by IskarJarak

In the Japanese version Paladin is Knight, so... Dark Knight actually makes sense if you follow your own logic. :P

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Guess my problem is this version of Dark Knight is different from the other versions of the Dark Knight in the series.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

This entire notion that is being perpetuated that DRK is bad anywhere outside of Alex Savage is complete garbage as is the notion that if they buff PLD's damage (PLD is getting adjustments but I highly doubt this means a DPS boost up to DRK/WAR levels... it doesn't make any sense from a design perspective) DRK will be obsolete.

I've offered to go PLD for certain fights for my raid group, and they've all chanted "NO" at the top of their lungs. The fact is DRK proved itself as a tank in the most difficult tier of raids the dev team has put out to date, and they've come right out and said it'll never be that hard again for the foreseeable future. People like to say "oh well its only because blah blah all the fights are magical..." bullshit. A2S was almost 100% physical, A3S for all intents and purposes was 100% physical as well with the sole exception of drainage tethers.

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When we were first working on ThorEx, I rolled both DRK and PLD. I asked the healers which class they liked better for dealing with the damage. The answer was a resounding "meh". There wasn't really any difference in their eyes. I ended up staying as PLD on that fight for 2 reasons 1) I was rolling as DRK on almost all other Raid content, and 2) We PUG ThorEx more often, and I like to roll in there on the weakest class (based on damage output) because I do bring the damage, and it is a nice reminder that PLD's can do reasonable damage.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only thing that baffles me is why they call it Dark Knight instead of Blackguard.

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If you paid attention to the post-50 Job quests, we're better knights than the knights of Ishgard. We're pretty much the enforcers of the law, we go where the law enforcers dare not to enforce the law upon the law enforcers.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

If you paid attention to the post-50 Job quests, we're better knights than the knights of Ishgard. We're pretty much the enforcers of the law, we go where the law enforcers dare not to enforce the law upon the law enforcers.

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Which honestly has little to do with the "Abyss" and was full "bodyguard duty" and discover "love and friendship" with "Moogles".

30-50 arc was amazing. And then they backpedaled massively 50-60.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Which honestly has little to do with the "Abyss" and was full "bodyguard duty" and discover "love and friendship" with "Moogles".

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Heh, heh, right? 30-50: "The truly strong stand alone. The weak masses cry for succor, and whether or not we choose to assist them depends on how much we can tolerate their desperate clinging. We'll stay on the side of the angels for now, but there's no guarantees for tomorrow. Now lets go kill something to shut these idiots up."

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110410161342

50-60: "This Loli has taught me the power of friendship and love. Let's go play with some moogles! Awwwwww."

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hp...14889107_n.jpg

^Nailed it. Hence why I see DRK as a novelty Tank class. A damn shame.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Thing is content is naturally more physical heavy than magical.

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Just abut every major tank buster in the game uses a mixed type of dmg mod, wheres its both phys and magic, save for the purely magical ones in some fights that you listed. Personally I see both tanks being just fine. Obviously certain classes excel at certain fights, but really, it comes down to team comp. Its silly to have a drk and a mnk in the same party, when you can change your mnk to a nin or change your drk to a pld.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Which honestly has little to do with the "Abyss" and was full "bodyguard duty" and discover "love and friendship" with "Moogles".

30-50 arc was amazing. And then they backpedaled massively 50-60.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Heh, heh, right? 30-50: "The truly strong stand alone. The weak masses cry for succor, and whether or not we choose to assist them depends on how much we can tolerate their desperate clinging. We'll stay on the side of the angels for now, but there's no guarantees for tomorrow. Now lets go kill something to shut these idiots up."

50-60: "This Loli has taught me the power of friendship and love. Let's go play with some moogles! Awwwwww."

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And yet, at the end, and actually throughout, the first half of the Dark Knight storyline, we are actively fighting that ideal. Fray gets frustrated with us because we refuse to give into that ideal, Fray takes action because Fray sees us as weak for choosing to, despite Fray's best intentions, selfless. In the end, we remain merciful, we remain strong, we remain collected and calm, even in our darkest moments.

Because, when it comes down to it, a Dark Knight is simply a knight, a Paladin, who has chosen to sully their hands to uphold what they believe in. The Warrior of Light as a Dark Knight isn't so different, and Dark Knights as a whole are defined as having a strong moral code as well as the willpower to uphold that code at any cost, even their standing in society.

As for Sidurgu and the Abyss, in Sidurgu's case, the story stops being about us. Sidurgu is the one who needs to learn the lesson that we learned in the 30-50 storyline, the lesson being that regardless of how we feel, regardless of what we think, society needs us to be strong. At the start of the 50-60 storyline, Sidurgu is driven by hatred and revenge, we spend that questline not learning things ourselves, but helping him accept what has happened and move on. That's why in the end he shows mercy, and then regret at the actions he was given permission to do. Sidurgu isn't proud of slaying that woman like he would have been when we first met him, he is devastated by it.

And the Abyss, the Abyss is simply where we draw our powers from. Sidurgu and Fray both explain that Dark Knights draw power from the Abyss and that our emotions are the conduit. What the moogles teach us is that it isn't just our negative emotions that can act as a conduit, but our positive ones as well, chief among them being love, be it for country, friends, family, or just a single, special person. And that, as the moogles explained, a Dark Knight who fights for love is unstoppable. The quest afterwards, you fight off a small garrison's worth of knights. I'm not sure if you kept count, but you fight over thirty knights in the level 60 quest. And if we consider Sidurgu as taking on at least half, that's at least fifteen knights for the both of you. Sidurgu proves his love for Rielle as an adoptive father in that moment, while you, as usual for the Warrior of Light, prove your love for the whole realm once again. And it's that same affection that drives you to become such an overwhelming force in that moment.

Eh as a Dark Knight I'd rather learn more of the Abyss then be go on on a mini crusade of protecting useless thing with Sidurgu. And in my headcanon the WoL has little love for Eorzea. Whose denizens have proven themselves to be quite pathetic on multiple accounts.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Eh as a Dark Knight I'd rather learn more of the Abyss then be go on on a mini crusade of protecting useless thing with Sidurgu. And in my headcanon the WoL has little love for Eorzea. Whose denizens have proven themselves to be quite pathetic on multiple accounts.

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Careful there. I just cut myself on how edgy this post is

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Careful there. I just cut myself on how edgy this post is

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My favorite character in all of Final Fantasy full stop, is Gaffgarion from FFT. He's the ideal Dark Knight for me, not Cecil. A professional, somewhat greedy fighter who doesn't blanch at the hard decisions. Not an edgelord, just a guy who knows he's a bastard and doesn't care.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

My favorite character in all of Final Fantasy full stop, is Gaffgarion from FFT. He's the ideal Dark Knight for me, not Cecil. A professional, somewhat greedy fighter who doesn't blanch at the hard decisions. Not an edgelord, just a guy who knows he's a bastard and doesn't care.

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A true Dark Knight. Fights for coin and for himself above all. Laws mean nothing. Fights for his ideals alone. In XIV all we amount to is killing Corrupt Templars who believe in a false faith all to protect a little Ishgardian female. Which IMO is a Paladin's job. Not a Dark Knight's. Now 30-50 was a really good opener for the Dark Knight and I really enjoyed it. It's just a disappointment that they went from that...to what we got in 50-60. The Dark Knight has always had a tragic story, the ending never a good one and they generally remain alone. And often die that way.

PLD was about being a bodyguard for a corrupt institution (run by lalafells) designed to oppress the people. DRK is about liberating yourself from society's shackles and standing up for the weak and defenseless. It's about channelling your anger against injustice to protect your loved ones, but not giving into it. The roles are switched from FFVI.

The greatsword is the weapon of the protagonist. Our endings are generally good ones. And when we die... it is generally... surrounded by moogles?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

A true Dark Knight. Fights for coin and for himself above all. Laws mean nothing. Fights for his ideals alone. In XIV all we amount to is killing Corrupt Templars who believe in a false faith all to protect a little Ishgardian female. Which IMO is a Paladin's job. Not a Dark Knight's. Now 30-50 was a really good opener for the Dark Knight and I really enjoyed it. It's just a disappointment that they went from that...to what we got in 50-60. The Dark Knight has always had a tragic story, the ending never a good one and they generally remain alone. And often die that way.

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That is more your idea of a Dark knight but doesn't mean all Dark Knights should follow that. Depends on how base you want to be, base of all bases a Dark Knight is someone who uses the Power of Darkness and wields a great sword but what he dose with that is more down to the person himself. Is he Greedy, defending the weak, do they choose to abide by there own code? that more a personnel thing rather then what the job is.

It's like thinking all PLDs should uphold the law and all that but I can safely say I've met some dodgy PLD's in my time.

I remember in ffxi when my friend unlocked DRK his first thing he said to me was "I hate that I always have to do the good thing, why is there no moral choice system?". But being a dark knight doesn't make you evil. If anything in ffxiv the story shows that it's about suppressing your evil desires and bringing them under your control to harness as power.

That said I do agree the 30-50 story was amazing while the 50-60 story felt very cliche.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only thing that baffles me is why they call it Dark Knight instead of Blackguard. The class just feels like a Dark version of Paladin that just specializes in MP management and mitigating magical damage as it's main gimmick.

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I think this is intentional design, since PLD embodies light and is a physical heavy tank they wanted DRK, as the embodiment of darkness, to be like the flip side of the coin and be a magical heavy tank. When they first discussed DRK they were actually originally going to make great swords a 2 handed gladiators arm and have it branch off of gladiator, so if you think DRK and PLD are similar now... Imagine that!

In the end, War/War will probably remain the best tanking duo. And as its the only tank class that scales with gear, it will only get better the more "on par" your gear is to content. If your concerned about slow LB, have a War open with holmgang and let them drop. The healers contribution to the LB is highest after healing a tank from critically low hp.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I think this is intentional design, since PLD embodies light and is a physical heavy tank they wanted DRK, as the embodiment of darkness, to be like the flip side of the coin and be a magical heavy tank. When they first discussed DRK they were actually originally going to make great swords a 2 handed gladiators arm and have it branch off of gladiator, so if you think DRK and PLD are similar now... Imagine that!

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They should have saved Dark Knight for later and simply have had Paladin and Templar if that was the case. I will agree the 50-60 Job Quest arc was disappointing. I just don't like how half of the skills of a Drk are magic mitigating defensive skills in the same vein as a Paladin. Most of their animations make me feel like I'm some kind of Robot putting up shields.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I think this is intentional design, since PLD embodies light and is a physical heavy tank they wanted DRK, as the embodiment of darkness, to be like the flip side of the coin and be a magical heavy tank. When they first discussed DRK they were actually originally going to make great swords a 2 handed gladiators arm and have it branch off of gladiator, so if you think DRK and PLD are similar now... Imagine that!

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Paladin is known as ナイト (Naito - Knight) in the Japanese version or ナ (Na) for short, if I'm not mistaken. In general, Japanese version takes the first character of each job as the abbreviation. So in that regard it kind of makes sense to call it a Dark Knight since it is a darker or blacker version of the knight.

Personally I like the division between DRK and PLD as it gives me a choice in tanking. Obviously WAR isn't going anywhere so the other tank now has the option of going into a fight with a choice which I'm all for.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Schmoe

But if it's anything like death knights in WoW I'll probably like everything about them except the aesthetics (too much emo-goth for my taste), which kills it for me.

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You don't necessarily have to be edgy

http://xivbubblegum.pink/media/uploa...5-11_47_42.jpg

/offtopic

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Originally Posted by deastr

You don't necessarily have to be edgy

http://xivbubblegum.pink/media/uploa...5-11_47_42.jpg

/offtopic

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Kill it with darkness!

I generally main tank for my raid so I'll play either PLD or DRK based on the content. That said, I enjoy DRK at 60 quite a bit, which is why I did the relic for it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Guess my problem is this version of Dark Knight is different from the other versions of the Dark Knight in the series.

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I think the issue is that a tank who sacrifices health would be strictly worse than either other tank just on base concept. You'd require more heals in the duration of the fight just on principle, unless they improved DRK self-heals. It's just a super pointless balancing act that's made way easier and more enjoyable by having it manage MP instead. I definitely see your point, though, and I don't exactly disagree. I just think a class sacrificing its health for extra damage on a regular basis isn't conducive to the game as it's conceived.

I have no comment to make on the 50-60 questline, because it was just bad, though.



On-topic, DRK isn't going anywhere. If PLD is suddenly made on-par with DRK and WAR is slapped across the jaw and dropped down a peg, it'll turn into a 3 choose 2 situation, where currently it's "if you're not running DRK/WAR, you're sub-optimal." I'm hoping 3.2 either spreads the slashing debuff love or outright removes the slashing/piercing/blunt debuffs from being a thing that exists in the game. Until they do that, WAR is the indispensable tank, which is bad. If PLD or DRK had a slashing debuff option, too, you wouldn't have [DRK or PLD] and [WAR]. So it wouldn't be a question of "WILL DRK BE GONE!?" since all 3 would be viable to use in any combination of two.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I generally main tank for my raid so I'll play either PLD or DRK based on the content. That said, I enjoy DRK at 60 quite a bit, which is why I did the relic for it.

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Considering you can mitigate all the present content just fine with either class, this should be the reason why you roll a specific class. ,