Suggestion for GMs in handling reports of player threats of self harm

Recently, my company had to kick someone over a very real issue as well as contacted GMs about this issue.

This person's psychological state was not...good. They kept talking about their issues with suicide and every little thing we did as our usual joking around they took offense to and started threatening to commit suicide over us joking around with each other. And then when we all talked to her about this, she threatened to commit suicide if we kicked her out (and implied that she would when we did).


In other MMOs like WoW, Guild leaders can contact GMs over issues of suicide where in which they have substantial proof that this is a concern (which we have logs upon logs of), they can track the person's IP address and call the police. Right now, none of us know what happened to this person and despite we asked her to leave for her safety (because clearly our FC was not a fit for them) and the safety and comfort of our members and people who we are associated with (who them also brought into this mess)....


Myself (the leader) and multiple officers contacted GMs in game out of concern and got a response that was like "You can't contact on behalf of another player and wait until this person logs in again."

So we're kind of stuck and many of us are feeling guilty.

I think that SE needs to have some sort of procedure for these kinds of reports. MMOs are played by all sorts of people, including people with psychological problems that shouldn't (and by law can't) fall on the responsibility of FC leaders to solve--which this person expected us to do. We can't call the police for this person as we don't know where she lives...If we have a legit report like this we should be able to report it and I am disappointed in SE for potentially ignoring a report like this where someone's life is literally in danger.

I am not sure if anyone else has been in this situation in their company or in other games...Not sure what else I or the other officers can do.

If I was a GM I wouldn't let you know anything, or have any impact on another players life. Look at it from their perspective: You kicked someone out of your FC and now want to know about their personal life. Surely that seems a bit odd to you? It may come from a good place but the GMs have limitations.

I'd wager a bet the main issue is more your feelings of guilt rather than her wellbeing. Nothing in your thread stands out as actual concern rather than passing the buck.

I vehemently disagree with Pence on this.

While there is a 99.9% chance that these "suicide threats" are just attention-seeking, immature brat behaviour... it is not our job as players, nor the GM's jobs, to determine that. That is the job of psych evaluators and the police.

We as players can't determine which police to contact since, for obvious reasons, we don't have access to players' personal details. GMs, however, do. It falls to them to take the logs provided by concerned players and pass them to the relevant police so that they can be dispatched.

This will have one of two results:
- They actually were suicidal, in which case they get the help they desperately need.
- They are in fact an obnoxious brat who will learn a very harsh life lesson that suicide is NOT a joke.

Either way. GMs *should* handle this. We do NOT want anyone here to be responsible in the 0.1% chance that they're actually going to off themselves.

Pure agreement with Niet here.

When you take on the mantle of something so big, you take on a certain responsibility to your player base, primarily because they're using your medium to express themselves, whether it be truthful or a lie - but that isn't for us to decide.
What is for us to decide, as the people who do most of the interacting with other players on a player-player level, is whether or not we do harbor concern for other players we meet - and obviously to determine those reasons why. Obviously some reason will be... Less valid than others, shall we say, but if there is genuine concern here, then it should be addressed... not brushed aside.

Pence, you appear to have misunderstood and made comments that have nothing to do with the OP's post, or have made completely nullified points by simple facts - facts which I will now state.

"If I was a GM" - Yeah, well. You're not. Are you?
"I wouldn't let you know anything" - Nobody asked to know anything - it was asked that the powers that be simply look at this case, rather than simply dismissing it with a wave of their hand. Very big difference.
"or have any impact on another players life." - Little bit too late for that, don't you think?
"You kicked someone out of your FC and now want to know about their personal life" - Wrong. Read the second point again.
"Surely that seems a bit odd to you?" - Sure it does, but... Seeing as nobody brought that up but you... Just saying, bud.

If I may move to your last sentence and nullify that as well, "passing the buck"? What "buck" is there to pass when the players simply can't do anything, but the GMs can. This isn't "passing the buck" as much as it is that where GMs may have their limitations... Players have many, many more. The people who are fit to handle this are not the players themselves, but those who have less limitations.
That... Just so happens to be the GMs.

They may do something but not tell you as they have the right to.

As some countries / states may have different laws, suicide attempt may be considered illegal.

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I am more concerned if there is something in place for this if anything.
Other MMOs do it. We did it (it being notified GMs) based on a mere guess that SE would do something...

Not letting us know that something was done is fine. But knowing that there IS something we can do in this case if we're worried about the safety of another player.

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Originally Posted by Pence

If I was a GM I wouldn't let you know anything, or have any impact on another players life. Look at it from their perspective: You kicked someone out of your FC and now want to know about their personal life. Surely that seems a bit odd to you? It may come from a good place but the GMs have limitations.

I'd wager a bet the main issue is more your feelings of guilt rather than her wellbeing. Nothing in your thread stands out as actual concern rather than passing the buck.

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You can feel free to take what I said as us not caring. But we are concerned and wouldn't have contacted GMs if we weren't. It was obvious that our FC's environment wasn't helping her triggers and her behavior was a problem to our members and affiliates. We did EVERYTHING we could to try and ease things but we could not tip-toe around her out of actual fear that we would end up messing up and her taking anything anyone said the wrong way as the "last straw." She was acting in a way that was dangerous to both herself and our company and for actual legal reasons we considered logging everything as anything she decided to do could fall back on us.

We are on Balmung and are an RP FC. It was obvious a lot of things weren't being separated IC and OOC in her mind and the safety of our members has always been our priority. For example, we bar underaged players from certain IC events. If they are not legal to do it in real life (i.e. drink alcohol) then they won't be doing it with their character...this obvious becomes most concerning with ERPers on our server and us shielding those players in our FC who are under the age of 18 from those types of players. Our FC has a written set of rules for our members that doesn't allow that type of behavior for that very reason and will result in simply kicking the person, etc. It may be different in raiding FCs, but RP FCs are all about communication and collaboration...so we do care a lot. If we didn't and I didn't (as the FC leader) I would've just kicked her out. I've kicked out people for being jerks, racist, homophobic, etc. But this isn't a case like that.

Greetings, Asheloux!

This thread was brought to my attention, since these types of situations can be very emotional and concerning for everyone involved. I was hoping to be able to clarify our policy about these types of situations, so there is greater understanding of the GM policies for handling these types of cases.

To begin with (and, hopefully, offer the most assurance related to your concerns), we do have a procedure for handling various types of threats, both for customers who may engage in self harm and those who make threats. As others have pointed out, however, these situations are very private, and we take that privacy very seriously. While we will investigate any threats that are made, we cannot give out any information related to those investigations. Please also note that our investigations may not always be the most efficient way of handling a threat; often, for threats against a person, the threatened person would benefit more in the short run from contacting the police themselves than having the GMs investigate. This can certainly come across as dismissive of a threat; however, since we cannot discuss the investigation that will be conducted, this may be the best advice we can offer in those situations, and does not mean we are not looking into the threat or handling it to the best of our ability.

So, when you do encounter this type of concerning behaviour, we do encourage you to report it, and we will investigate it to determine the proper course of action according to our policies. The GMs will handle these cases based on the information they are provided to be able to take the best course of action.

In regards to your specific situation, I will be conducting a review of the specific case to ensure that it was handled in the best possible way. This will be looking at both the investigation and how it was handled with the customers who contacted us, since the front end can be more important for customer assurances in these types of situations, even if everything was handled well behind the scenes. Judging by the information you did provide, it may have been that multiple calls from multiple people were sent, and the best messaging for the situation was not used. In cases where we get multiple calls on a single issue, we may only directly contact enough people to get all the information needed to investigate, and then focus on completing the investigation in a timely manner. However, assurances that we are looking into it may not be the best in a situation like this where emotions can be highly charged.

I hope this provided a bit of insight into handling these cases. I will be monitoring the thread to keep it on topic and answer follow up questions that do seem to require my direct attention.

LGM Enkrateia

Great response Enkrateia, exactly what I'd like to see in this situation. I have experience of such matters & know that it's difficult, but essential, they are dealt with correctly & promptly.

As far as reporting back to the original "complainant" (contact, really) it would be best to inform them that you take the matter seriously & will deal with it, including contacting any external agencies you think necessary. Sometimes the current response we get is both impersonal & irrelevant. I'm not trying to offend, but you have clearly shown you understand how emotionally involved these situations are so will understand my concerns about no, or irrelevant, defacto responses in game.

Keep up the good work.

I remember a similar case in my fc. Though it wasn't this serious, the fc master was able to have a long chat with the person involved and that seemed to have resolved it. He/she is no longer in the fc anymore though.

knew a guy once years ago.. he had habit of telling people he was gonna kill himself when things didnt go his way.. if no1 brought him a drink/food/ anything really he would say im gonna kill myself, no1 likes or cares about me then would go ring lifeline and annoy them for hour or so... one day another mate heard him say it for the 500th time didnt help being drunk at the time turned around n said do it and gave him a knife (which i thought was wrong and sick imo)... ever since that day he never threatened to kill himself again lol

problem is threats of self harm you always have to take serious since you have no way of knowing if they will or not but in most cases it isnt a cry for attention they really do feel they would be better off ending themselves which is sad :(

Players and especially Free Company leaders who find themselves dealing with situations like this, tread very carefully. As uncaring as it sounds, sometimes the best possible advise that the person takes a break from a potentially harmful (for their health) environment online and they seek help from someone close to them in real life, or from medical professionals. You are not and can not be their therapist, it really, really doesn't work that way.

Yes, you always have to take these things seriously, but very often these things are not as serious as they seem. Years, and years ago on USENET newsgroups I was part of a community that lost two regular and prominent posters to completely different circumstances. In one case, the poster passed away due to illness and of course there was grief. In the other case, the poster died a hero protecting people in a store robbery, and there was grief;
...except he didn't die, there was no robbery. It was entirely faked by the real person behind the posting identity/personality people had conversed with for *years*. Then there was much anger, feelings of betrayal and hurt. Looking back, this person clearly had major issues, or else they would not have done what they did. So it was serious, but not as serious as it might at first seem.

The point being you do not know what the reality of the person's situation is; you aren't their therapist/counselor. The absolute best thing you can do is support them by advising that they seek help in the real world, and contact a GM since as Enkrateia related, SE does have policy and procedure to handle these situations.

Of course leave the door open for such players to return when they are healthier, but as a FC master you have to protect your other members from harm also. They don't need or deserve to handle this kind of drama and stress.

I'm company master in FFXIV, and was a guild leader prior to moving to FFXIV. I've experienced many (more than my members ever knew about) situations ranging from unwitting behavior that was smoothed out and worked through, all the way to unstable stalkers threatening themselves in order to force me to comply with their wishes. Sometimes talking to a person really helps them, but not because you are taking the role of therapist, it's because you're taking the role of friend, which is in many cases all that is needed. Sometimes you have to give a person the space and time they need to work through their situation, sometimes you have to act quickly to prevent things from spiraling out of control.

It's never easy. But, in a sense, as guild leader/FC master, you accepted responsibility to handle these situations, just be careful how you do, and leave the professional services to the professionals.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

.. OPs post. They kicked this person out of the FC for very good reasons - to protect themself and the person aswell. From what I understand that enviroment the Fc provided was rather harmful for that person but they didnt wanted to leave. That not only made the situation worse for themself but also for everyone else in the FC
**snip**
Sometimes the best help you can provide is "forcing" someone into professional, medical care and to tell someone to resolve their issues first.
**snip** Please, dont make "fun" of people who actually had good intention and were intelligent enough to find a solution that works for them while still caring about said person.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

I remember a similar case in my fc. Though it wasn't this serious, the fc master was able to have a long chat with the person involved and that seemed to have resolved it. He/she is no longer in the fc anymore though.

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With the best will in the world, there are some things that it's hard to come back after.

This is why I dont really like MMO's anymore. Sometimes, I feel we all forget we are playing a game, which is supposed to be an interface in which you have fun -- a small escape from our daily lives.

I think it is an intense invasion of privacy to assume that a private company will track your IP address, inform your internet provider and ask them to divulge your physical location to the police so that they may visit your home, over what you allegedly said or did in an online game. Big Brother much?

Personal opinions/issues aside from the matter at hand, just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

This is why I dont really like MMO's anymore. Sometimes, I feel we all forget we are playing a game, which is supposed to be an interface in which you have fun -- a small escape from our daily lives.

I think it is an intense invasion of privacy to assume that a private company will track your IP address, inform your internet provider and ask them to divulge your physical location to the police so that they may visit your home, over what you allegedly said or did in an online game. Big Brother much?

Personal opinions/issues aside from the matter at hand, just my 2 cents.

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How is it an intense invasion of privacy? Knowing your IP address means nothing. SE has your account record on file, they know your address and other information. Your IP address is worthless, you might be proxied through a VPN. It's hardly an invasion of privacy to scrape an IP address from a packet and so a lookup for the owner of the address either.

Perhaps you're forgetting that it's real people playing a game? Real people have real problems.

Let's turn this around, if there was a player threatening to end their life if people were not nice to them. How long would it be before some jerk yanks their chain just to see what they will do? Realistically, there is the potential for great harm, and SE already has the information they need at their disposal to potentially avert that harm.

SE knows a billing address willing provided to them and a credit card number.

To assume the police would visit the person at their home was the most invasive aspect IMO.

Nothing this person writes is admissible as evidence in any legal way. There is no way to confirm the person registered to the account, is making these statements at all. To suggest that a private company make decisions about whether police should be dispatched to a persons residence is alarming, in my opinion.

It opens the door too wide for any kind of speech that anyone deems threatening or unusual on a relatively anonymous platform, to incur some kind of investigation from local authorities. Not to mention various nations have various laws regarding speech and it's protection.

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Originally Posted by Niet

I vehemently disagree with Pence on this.

While there is a 99.9% chance that these "suicide threats" are just attention-seeking, immature brat behaviour...

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As much as you or anyone else would want to be right about that, you really need to study the affects depression has on the mind and how a person thinks when they are suicidal. The WORST thing you can do is not take someone like seriously, because often times, they will go through with it.

Hopefully that player didn't do so.. and got away from FFXIV. This community isn't for people with depression.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

(Snipped)The WORST thing you can do is not take someone like seriously, because often times, they will go through with it.

Hopefully that player didn't do so.. and got away from FFXIV. This community isn't for people with depression.

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First, all MMOs are for people with depression. Its part of the mindset that people have to have to sink a part time job's worth of time into a fantasy life. It just comes with the culture.

Second, the real worst thing one can do is not to be skeptical about threats of suicide, but to think that they should try and help. I get being empathetic and wanting to do something, but attempting to do the work of a professional that has been trained for that exact situation can do more harm than good. Unless you've been trained in psychology, tread carefully and try to keep your distance without being dismissive. A person's life is not something that should be gambled on hoping you know how to deal with the situation.

This sort of thing really isn't SE's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

This is why I dont really like MMO's anymore. Sometimes, I feel we all forget we are playing a game, which is supposed to be an interface in which you have fun -- a small escape from our daily lives.

I think it is an intense invasion of privacy to assume that a private company will track your IP address, inform your internet provider and ask them to divulge your physical location to the police so that they may visit your home, over what you allegedly said or did in an online game. Big Brother much?

Personal opinions/issues aside from the matter at hand, just my 2 cents.

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And sometimes people forget that there's a very real person behind an avatar.
And sometimes people forget that other people's situation can be radically different than your own.