PvP - Do we really want this kind of thing in Final Fantasy?

Final Fantasy games are very clearly based on PvE content, being as they are filled with fantastic and mythical worlds, where story is your drive, and progression is your timeline. Fighting each other is not really in the spirit of the Final Fantasy way, as the games promote coming together to fight the greater evil, not petty battles between the same factions.

While I understand there are people that want to engage in PvP combat, let's try to recall what kind of a debacle "PvP" was in XI. We had:

- Ballista which was just awful, although good for catching your friends out by them not noticing you casting Freeze on them... hehehehe

- Brenner, which was kind of popular with some players on my realm, like they had regular matches and stuff, but the abilities are all so crazy varied in the game, there was little to no balance.

Now lets look at World of Warcraft, and see how that game is constantly being balanced and rebalanced due to the now central focus on PvP. Every ability has to match up to everyone elses, which basically has caused the game to be so homogenized, you basically no longer know what you are fighting, nor does it matter, as every spell and ability has a copied variant for pretty much all classes.

Also with PvP comes a massive amount of rage and anger from younger players, and causes more rifts than you think it might solve, and lets not forget how world PvP leads to ganking and abuse of the system.

This is something that worries me deeply with Final Fantasy, should the game take on a PvP focus. We could be seeing the end to Ancient Magic, selected classes having sleep spells, and class specific abilities as the balancing would be a huge job, but I want to know what people think.

On the flip side, PvP offers a play arena for people to settle disputes, take on each other, place bets and have a little clean fun inside a controlled environment. Some people get no better feeling than beating an equal in combat.

I admit I would love to see a little mini fun arena for people to have a fight with each other, but thats about as far as I ever want to see it go.

So like this post if you do want to see PvP in Final Fantasy XIV...

and like this post if you don't want to see PvP in Final Fantasy XIV.

Like this post if you don't care at all.

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Originally Posted by Risae

Like this post if you don't care at all.

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What a great way to provide developmental feedback to proposed features upcoming, that could define the entire game.

Thumbs up for the most useless poster on the forums.

I agree with adding optional PvP, but I also hope they are not going to make the same mistake Blizzard did. Blizzard is constantly (or at least was) balancing classes just to make sure PvP is balanced and fair for all classes. This kinda destroys the PvE aspect of the game from time to time.

FFXI did it right. They added PvP, but hardly balanced the classes for PvP. They just gave you the option to do it, but didn't care too much about it. I trust Yoshi to not completely destroy everything he worked so hard for just for the love of some PvP.

Personally I can do without PvP, but I know some people really want to see it, so I am fine with that as long as it is optional and you do not get balancing issues that completely destroy some classes in PvE aspect of the game.

I want to see PvP as long as it's kept in its own area that's completely optional. Consensual PvP if you will. As long as it does not interfere with the PvE aspects of the game, it's fine. I think this is what we're getting anyway so I'm happy with it.

With PvP the way they seem to be suggesting it, I doubt we'd see the same kind of anger and rifts you describe above. It's completely optional (I hope). If you like it, do it. If you don't, don't. As it should be.

I've really never tried PVP, I was in XI for like 9 yrs or something, but i never cared to try it. But I'm interested, It doesnt really matter if its put in the game or not, because it isn't forced on you. Sense it will be in a specific area and such. I'd like to try it at least and see what its like, before I make a judgement call on how good/bad it is.

Like this post if you want to give me free likes

double voted :O!!!! because Honestly I am sick of these 2.0 threads lol let us worry about the changes now and see what he has to say in a week or 2 during the next Letter! If you have questions post them on the official topic -.- we have enough of this 2.0 posts with unnumerable duplicates with unofficial polls...

BTW we already answered we wanted PvP back when Yoshi-P put out what we wanted to see in the new FFXIV player poll, and he is using those answers to make 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Vahzl

What a great way to provide developmental feedback to proposed features upcoming, that could define the entire game.

Thumbs up for the most useless poster on the forums.

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I was just giving people another choice. And yes, i do like the idea of optional PvP in the FFXIV Universe.

as long as there is no ganking and both players have to consent to a match, then who cares?

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

I agree with adding optional PvP, but I also hope they are not going to make the same mistake Blizzard did. Blizzard is constantly (or at least was) balancing classes just to make sure PvP is balanced and fair for all classes. This kinda destroys the PvE aspect of the game from time to time.

FFXI did it right. They added PvP, but hardly balanced the classes for PvP. They just gave you the option to do it, but didn't care too much about it. I trust Yoshi to not completely destroy everything he worked so hard for just for the love of some PvP.

Personally I can do without PvP, but I know some people really want to see it, so I am fine with that as long as it is optional and you do not get balancing issues that completely destroy some classes in PvE aspect of the game.

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You guys do know that they can balance PVP and PVE separately, right?

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Originally Posted by magenta_taco

You guys do know that they can balance PVP and PVE separately, right?

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You know as well as I do that people don't think. Guild Wars did this by implementing PvP only gear, I'm sure even going as far as adding in specific PvP modifiers for attacking other players would suffice as well.

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Originally Posted by Vahzl

Now lets look at World of Warcraft, and see how that game is constantly being balanced and rebalanced due to the now central focus on PvP. Every ability has to match up to everyone elses, which basically has caused the game to be so homogenized, you basically no longer know what you are fighting, nor does it matter, as every spell and ability has a copied variant for pretty much all classes.

Also with PvP comes a massive amount of rage and anger from younger players, and causes more rifts than you think it might solve, and lets not forget how world PvP leads to ganking and abuse of the system.

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This is because WoW made it wrong

What SE is planning for PvP:

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Two PvP venues, Coliseum and Frontlines, to be released after version 2.0.
Unique zones to be created so as not to affect non-participating players. Release of PvP-specific abilities, gear, and ranking.
Support for multi-party alliances for large-scale content to be released together with the above.

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I want PvP but not the sissy watered down version from 11.

having been a ragnarok player for 10 years. i love pvp. so bring it on... would be better if there was some kind of LS Vs LS capture the castle type thing tho.

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Originally Posted by Felis

This is because WoW made it wrong

What SE is planning for PvP:

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I believe the quotes you gave us were part of the original plans for WoW too.

I woke up just amazed at OPs post here. For one you cannot start a debate on a yes or no basis if the OP is already on the no side. He is being biased towards one side and trying to get people on that side for his own personal gains. He started talking about the "debacle pvp in FFXI that we had", ballista was not awful and Fenrir server was one of the biggest ballista based servers that everyone heard about in any server (me on Titan) and a lot of my friends moved to Fenrir server just to play ballista only. Ballista was very popular in my own server also. Everyone loved Brenner out of the 6 years I played no one knocked Brenner they just played it with their fellow LS mates and had fun.

Next you are saying that they are gonna rebalance skills towards PvP out of your own opinion. They had PvP in FFXI on a PvE based game. They never rebalanced skills for PvP and they never will. Why would they do that on a PvE based game on FFXIV. And you also bringing up anger that people will get... cmon man you are starting forum posts like this.

Yoshi himself in the 4gamer interview said that only 15% people involve themselves into PvP based on their own data that they have at hand. That was enough for them to add PvP areas. They are excited about it, and so am I. This is a MMO that catters to everyone not just yourself, stop knocking anything that comes by that you don't like. If they are happy with the 15% player base that plays PvP than let it be and leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Hardy

having been a ragnarok player for 10 years. i love pvp. so bring it on... would be better if there was some kind of LS Vs LS capture the castle type thing tho.

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Indeed, it would be nice if we could battle LSes from different servers as well.

I want PvP in FFXIV. It will be fun.

There was PvP in lots of final fantasy games, at least in theory. Seifer vs Squall, for example. Sure, it wasn't multiplayer, but it was pitting playable characters against eachother, so by all accounts agrees with the sentiment of PvP.

There was also Ballista in FFXI.

I don't think PvP will destroy the camraderie of the community either. It will just be a fun diversion, something lots of people will enjoy.

And if it's fun and lots of people will enjoy it, and if it doesn't encroach upon anyone else's fun, and if it doesn't oppose the FF philosophy, then why not implement it?

There is no reason not to implement it.

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Originally Posted by Azmar

I woke up just amazed at OPs post here. For one you cannot start a debate on a yes or no basis if the OP is already on the no side. He is being biased towards one side and trying to get people on that side for his own personal gains. He started talking about the "debacle pvp in FFXI that we had", ballista was not awful and Fenrir server was one of the biggest ballista based servers that everyone heard about in any server (me on Titan) and a lot of my friends moved to Fenrir server just to play ballista only. Ballista was very popular in my own server also. Everyone loved Brenner out of the 6 years I played no one knocked Brenner they just played it with their fellow LS mates and had fun.

Next you are saying that they are gonna rebalance skills towards PvP out of your own opinion. They had PvP in FFXI on a PvE based game. They never rebalanced skills for PvP and they never will. Why would they do that on a PvE based game on FFXIV. And you also bringing up anger that people will get... cmon man you are starting forum posts like this.

Yoshi himself in the 4gamer interview said that only 15% people involve themselves into PvP based on their own data that they have at hand. That was enough for them to add PvP areas. They are excited about it, and so am I. This is a MMO that catters to everyone not just yourself, stop knocking anything that comes by that you don't like. If they are happy with the 15% player base that plays PvP than let it be and leave it alone.

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Um I do indeed have a strong dislike for PvP in Final Fantasy, and the initial post has reasons both for and against it. While I might be biased in one way, I am still objective but realistic about the impact these systems have on games.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Indeed, it would be nice if we could battle LSes from different servers as well.

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giving this interaction between servers would also go towards closing the gap on lonliness between friends or rivals =]

but yeah im big into group pvp. its more fun with friends

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Originally Posted by Hardy

giving this interaction between servers would also go towards closing the gap on lonliness between friends or rivals =]

but yeah im big into group pvp. its more fun with friends

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I can assure you, Abaddon has no shortage of rivals on Fabul. :P But that's what makes the game fun, some friendly competition.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I can assure you, Abaddon has no shortage of rivals on Fabul. :P But that's what makes the game fun, some friendly competition.

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you make me wanna change servers ! XD

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Originally Posted by magenta_taco

You guys do know that they can balance PVP and PVE separately, right?

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I am not saying they can't, I am just saying Blizzard did not do this properly and destroyed some PvE aspects of the game. I am just saying that I hope Square Enix does this in a different way. It is not just about PvP only gear, it is also about certain abilities that Blizzard kept changing and changing and changing to keep PvP between classes balanced, without looking at the influences it had on the PvE side of the game.

@Arcell, why can you not discuss in a normal way? Not one word in my post was offending and I did not write it without thinking about it first. I am discussing something and the first thing you assume is that I did not think about it. Get over yourself and just learn to discuss in a normal way even if you are on the internet. Seriously ...

Thanks op for saying you are biased towards one side. You cannot start these debates and steer people to the "no" side for your own personal gains. You start this debate with a yes and no option and say what its about. OP if you don't like it don't do it. You are clearly abusing the freedom of speech that SE has freely given to everyone. Thank you for not providing equal terms on both sides of the debate.

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Originally Posted by Hardy

you make me wanna change servers ! XD

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:P With that being said, Fabul has been called the unofficial drama server. lol

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Originally Posted by Vahzl

What a great way to provide developmental feedback to proposed features upcoming, that could define the entire game.

Thumbs up for the most useless poster on the forums.

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The crap that you posted is not any more useful.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

:P With that being said, Fabul has been called the unofficial drama server. lol

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*offtopic* sorry, last reply.

yeah but since iv returned my whole LS is gone so evaluating my options right now !

Why wouldn't you add PvP... since it will draw people in.

I don't understand these posts... they said they are adding it, they have concept art, they are working on the numbers for pvp.... so WTF do you think this post will do? It's going to be in the game sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Azmar

Thanks op for saying you are biased towards one side. You cannot start these debates and steer people to the "no" side for your own personal gains. You start this debate with a yes and no option and say what its about. OP if you don't like it don't do it. You are clearly abusing the freedom of speech that SE has freely given to everyone. Thank you for not providing equal terms on both sides of the debate.

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I do not get this. This is a forum and everyone can make any kind of thread he likes. The opening post was pretty clear and well structured. Yes, he is biased and yes he does not like PvP. He does not say everyone else sucks and that PvP should be avoided at all costs. He just asks what you guys think about this. If you check his second posts he also gave everyone the option to "like" PvP.

I am still laughing at the "you are clearly abusing the freedom of speech that SE has freely given to everyone". It is you that tells him how he has to use his FREEDOM, so what part of FREEDOM do you not get ...

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Originally Posted by Hardy

*offtopic* sorry, last reply.

yeah but since iv returned my whole LS is gone so evaluating my options right now !

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Ooh, that sucks for sure. If you do come to Fabul, we're not going anywhere. The "core" members of my LS have all confirmed that they'll be paying the sub when it starts, so we'll be around for a while.

Optional PvP please.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

:P With that being said, Fabul has been called the unofficial drama server. lol

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Its true - he does not lie.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Its true - he does not lie.

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Drama makes the MMO world go round. been this way for many many moons XD

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Originally Posted by Azmar

Thanks op for saying you are biased towards one side. You cannot start these debates and steer people to the "no" side for your own personal gains. You start this debate with a yes and no option and say what its about. OP if you don't like it don't do it. You are clearly abusing the freedom of speech that SE has freely given to everyone. Thank you for not providing equal terms on both sides of the debate.

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So you seem to be saying that it is only allowed to make a thread on something that you are massively in favor of, or have no opinion of.

Feedback, when presented clearly and cleanly, no matter if negative or positive, is valuable, as it allows developers to see the opinions of their playerbase, the ones who are ultimately going to be deciding how the game survives.

You are still making assumptions OP, maybe a little extreme on the freedom part but still just trying to say the post is ridicilous. I did nowhere say threads are only allowed if you are in favour. I clearly said several times only make a post if your neutral on it and show neutral points on both pro and cons. There is a reason people get mad at reviews of ffxiv when someone is biased towards the negative side.. and this is what you are doing. Except you are hurting the game from the inside now.

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Originally Posted by Azmar

Thanks op for saying you are biased towards one side. You cannot start these debates and steer people to the "no" side for your own personal gains. You start this debate with a yes and no option and say what its about. OP if you don't like it don't do it. You are clearly abusing the freedom of speech that SE has freely given to everyone. Thank you for not providing equal terms on both sides of the debate.

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This post is absolutely absurd.

FFS...

Dissidia Final Fantasy anyone?

OT:
It is clear PVP and large scale PVP is coming. It is optional, and there is a purpose to it. Grand Companies representing their respective city. If I read correctly, they will fight for resources in the pvp zones. None pvp players can still participate by supporting their grand company by other means without fighting. So you guys who are against pvp can still take part in these events without even fighting.

This is all the details I know from reading recent interviews held with Yoshi-P. I have to admit I'm excited. I cant wait to participate in these events.

I do not see this as being a negative implementation for anyone. players who enjoy pvp can go ahead and do that on the side, or perhaps pve players can try it out from time to time when they have nothing else better to do. As long as the rewards are minimal (perhaps titles and "social" gear) I do not see pve player's crying about it in mass.

For me, I enjoy pve but have always loved the competitive edge of pvp content and the communication and split second decision making that comes with it. I belong to an mmorpg niche that enjoys both pve and pvp with a good balance.

If SE wants to recreate FFXIV in 2.0, then I think the implementation of pvp and other content is a step in the right direction. There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving the player base more gameplay options.