Ley lines and AoE

Hey guys, I need some advice about ley lines as I'm struggling to use it effectively for AoE.
My rotation for AoE is (Not including any oGDS in the example)
(opener) F3 - F2 spam - Flare - Transpose
(sustained) F3 - F2x2 - Flare - Transpose - repeat until everything is dead.

The problem I have is that during my main sustained rotation I finish too quickly with ley lines active and end up waiting on my transpose timer. This pretty much completely negates any benefit I get from ley lines in the first place. I want to use it more effectively so how do you guys do it?

If your GCD is below around 2.10 before ley lines you won't get any major benefit due to transpose and 3 second mp regen ticks.

I haven't looked how it math's out but with Leylines I will use Enochian.

F3 ->F2 till however many -> Flare -> Transpose -> B4
F3 -> F2, F2 -> Flare -> Transpose B4

Seems to buy enough time for some MP regen.

In aoe/dungeon situations I only use leylines with raging strikes/convert:

Fire 3 -> Quelling Strikes/Enochian/Leylines -> Fire 2 -> Raging Strikes -> Fire 2 (x2) -> Flare -> Convert/Swiftcast -> Flare -> Potion -> Flare -> Transpose

*Sometimes* I'll use leylines when I can see the melee focusing 1 mob in an aoe situation and I plan on using sharpcast/Thunder in umbral ice (ie. one mob of 3 has much lower health and single target rotation is coming up)

I figure waiting an extra half second to start casting fire 3 after transpose. The amount of time saved casting all those aoes more than makes up for it

All right here is an advanced AOE setup and takes planning. Works great with pulls 5+.

Sprint - Get into position and get decently close in case tanks pull out of range. Blizz 3 - thunder 1 target #1
- Leylines ( I don\\\\\\'t throw this down right away and sometimes wait til after my 2nd thunder 1 in case tanks gets ballsy and pull a couple packs. Aetherial manipulation to tanks while he is pulling helps you get into position faster too)
- thunder 1 target #2
- thunder 1 target #3
- fire 3
- raging strikes and Enochian
At this point I almost always have a thunder cloud proc:
Sharp cast then hit my thunder cloud proc on target #4 giving me an immediate thunder cloud proc again.
- Fire 2

Thunder cloud proc from my previous sharp casted thunder cloud proc target number 5. Now you have thunder ticking on five targets. Very good chance of another thundercloud proc so continue on to target 6 or whatever target has most HP and no thunder on it already.
- Fire 2
- Fire 2
- Fire 2
- Flare
Convert
- Fire 1
Swift Cast Flare
Tanspose
Hopefully got time for a blizzard 4 before Enochian falls off but if you don't no biggie everything is almost dead anyway.

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Originally Posted by verandal

snip

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Fire II in Astral Fire III does 187.5 potency per enemy;
Thunder does 270 potency if all ticks hit the enemy;
Both have a base cast time of 2.5 seconds.

Using thunder right away as you've described is a definite potency loss:
With 5+ enemies you could do Fire III into Fire II doing 937.5 potency per GCD (versus the 270 potency of thunder - even considering Thunderprocs).

In fact, thunder in aoe situations during Astral Fire is a DPS loss compared to Fire II or Fire I even at 2 enemies.

Fire III -> buffs -> Fire 2 (x2) -> Flare. Period

I've ran into this problem often as well when it comes to Leylines & the Arrow card. Frankly, at this point, I think that Leylines and Arrow are best saved for single target situations. I mean, of course I understand the quicker you can throw out your AoE the quicker things will die. However under the mentality that, as a BLM, you should ALWAYS be casting, waiting like 2-3 seconds for a mana tick sucks.

Honestly, popping Enochian for each pull and Raging like every other (or so) pulls is more than enough power boost to not have to worry about a Sp.S. increase.

May I ask the MP of most lvl 60 Blk? I find during AOE Fire II spams(and I use ThunderI to reserve mp) that I'm too low to SC Flare/Convert at 60, had no prob at 50? am I not running enuff mp or am I doing something wrong?

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

May I ask the MP of most lvl 60 Blk? I find during AOE Fire II spams(and I use ThunderI to reserve mp) that I'm too low to SC Flare/Convert at 60, had no prob at 50? am I not running enuff mp or am I doing something wrong?

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You always have enough MP for 4 F2's. If you have enough MP to cast a 5th because of a "lucky" MP tick you need to cast Flare instead anyway as you won't have enough for Flare after a 5th F2..
If you're less than 3200 MP and you're trying to cast another F2, you won't have enough MP for Flare.
I have approx 11400 MP which is pretty standard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Fire II in Astral Fire III does 187.5 potency per enemy;
Thunder does 270 potency if all ticks hit the enemy;
Both have a base cast time of 2.5 seconds.

Using thunder right away as you've described is a definite potency loss:
With 5+ enemies you could do Fire III into Fire II doing 937.5 potency per GCD (versus the 270 potency of thunder - even considering Thunderprocs).

In fact, thunder in aoe situations during Astral Fire is a DPS loss compared to Fire II or Fire I even at 2 enemies.

Fire III -> buffs -> Fire 2 (x2) -> Flare. Period

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It's not that base potency when I get thunder 3 thunder cloud procs every 6 seconds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RajaVamberaux

Fire II in Astral Fire III does 187.5 potency per enemy;
Thunder does 270 potency if all ticks hit the enemy;
Both have a base cast time of 2.5 seconds.

Using thunder right away as you've described is a definite potency loss:
With 5+ enemies you could do Fire III into Fire II doing 937.5 potency per GCD (versus the 270 potency of thunder - even considering Thunderprocs).

In fact, thunder in aoe situations during Astral Fire is a DPS loss compared to Fire II or Fire I even at 2 enemies.

Fire III -> buffs -> Fire 2 (x2) -> Flare. Period

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Base cast time of Fire II is 3.0 seconds.

Your dps is not the dps of one GCD. If you could spam F2 endlessly then your numbers would be more valid, but MP limits that. Also, Thunder is more than just Thunder, it's also Thundercloud procs.

It's around 5 mobs where Thundercloud casting falls behind, but of course getting that many mobs together often involves a long pull, during which time you can get a few Thunders in early thanks to Sprint and Sharpcast.

Also thunder 3 thunder cloud proc potency is 710 if applied for full duration.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Base cast time of Fire II is 3.0 seconds.

Your dps is not the dps of one GCD. If you could spam F2 endlessly then your numbers would be more valid, but MP limits that. Also, Thunder is more than just Thunder, it's also Thundercloud procs.

It's around 5 mobs where Thundercloud casting falls behind, but of course getting that many mobs together often involves a long pull, during which time you can get a few Thunders in early thanks to Sprint and Sharpcast.

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Yeah I would agree past five mobs thunder cloud procs wouldn't be optimal but however by the time you get to the sixth target that first one will be nearing death of not dead anyways so I keep up with my thunder applying.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

If you're less than 3200 MP and you're trying to cast another F2, you won't have enough MP for Flare.
I have approx 11400 MP which is pretty standard.

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3200 isn't enough, the magic number is 3536 (I believe). The MP difference between races at level 60 is less than 40 MP from highest to lowest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

3200 isn't enough, the magic number is 3536 (I believe). The MP difference between races at level 60 is less than 40 MP from highest to lowest.

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The point is, cast 4, always cast 4, then cast Flare. Spells costs are based off your Max MP anyway are they not?
I need around 1250 MP for Flare. And since I usually have either 2700 or 3002 MP, 3200 is a good enough number to be able to cast an extra F4.

I don't even like it when SCH's use Selene when I'm on my BLM in a dungeon, as the 3% casting speed is enough to make me finish my Fire III cast too quickly, before the second MP tick, sometimes. That gets rather annoying, as it's not consistent. x.x

Ley Lines and The Arrow only make it worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The MP difference between races at level 60 is less than 40 MP from highest to lowest.

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Which is still enough to not have mana for 6xF4 opener without PIE party buff ;_;

Squenix pls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

You always have enough MP for 4 F2's. If you have enough MP to cast a 5th because of a "lucky" MP tick you need to cast Flare instead anyway as you won't have enough for Flare after a 5th F2..
If you're less than 3200 MP and you're trying to cast another F2, you won't have enough MP for Flare.
I have approx 11400 MP which is pretty standard.

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Thank you, so 4 Fire II is the magic number.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Thank you, so 4 Fire II is the magic number.

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It's not 4, it's 3. Sorry. I was including F3 in my calculations.
F3->F2->F2->F2->Flare->Convert->Swiftcast->Flare
Transpose->F3->F2->F2->Flare }Repeat until everything is dead.

The trick is to not cast any Ice spell to maximize your DPS. I was a little slow on the wagon on this one. I only found out I could do this on the weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

It's not 4, it's 3. Sorry. I was including F3 in my calculations.
F3->F2->F2->F2->Flare->Convert->Swiftcast->Flare
Transpose->F3->F2->F2->Flare }Repeat until everything is dead.

The trick is to not cast any Ice spell to maximize your DPS. I was a little slow on the wagon on this one. I only found out I could do this on the weekend.

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Gotcha, very similar to my 2.x rotation, though I would use Blizz III if Convert was down, instead of Transpose, would use the tick to drop a thunder I, then Fire III repeat. I will try to skip the Blizz II tho and transpose to see if my damage increases.