Okay, first let me say that I love carve and spit (CnS henceforth) but something bugs me. It's animation is awesome, the damage is awesome and the friggin icon is awesome too.
So my issue is the value. It has the value of a single syphon strike in mp, roughly 800 since I can't be bothered logging on to use it right now. Every 60 seconds this is basically a free unleash. It isn't bad, it should be better. It's our final skill. It should be double mp for what it is and the cooldown.
Under DA it becomes our most powerful instant damage attack. It costs around 2500 mp (DA plus mp lost from not using it to gain 800). For that we get a 450 potency ogcd. Great right?
Compare it to our other ogcd attacks though.
Plunge is 200, or 400 per use of CnS. That's for 0 mp cost and it can close gaps. Much better value.
Reprisal is 210, or 420 every CnS use. Admittedly this won't happen due to unreliability but it costs 0 mp.
Salted Earth is the kicker. 525 per target every 45 seconds. O mp...CnS can't keep up on single target and since most boss targets aren't being kited around this is just so much better.
Hell, for a minor mp cost dark passenger is 300 potency pee minute on one target. Just two targets and it outclasses CnS by 150 potency for a third of the mp.
I love CnS...but this just doesn't feel right. A higher mp draw would be ideal, or make it an aoe with DA. Failing that, give it an effect. Give it the slash res debuff for 20 seconds under DA. Make it feel like the lvl 60 skill it is.
The value of Carve and Spit.
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01-19-2016, 05:39 PMCarstienThe value of Carve and Spit.
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01-19-2016, 05:43 PMSyzygian
C&S is the reward you get for managing your MP right.
If you have to use it for MP in a single-target scenario you failed.
In this sense it is the perfect lvl 60 skill.
"Did you learn how to play the job correctly these past 60 levels? You did? Cool, have a pseudo Fell Cleave off the GCD." - DA C&S
"Did you learn how to play the job correctly these past 60 levels? You didn't? Alright... here's a little bit of MP... git gud tho, will ya?" - non-DA (sadface) C&S
I fail to see how or why lvl 60 abilities need to be so grandiose. WAR gets Decimate, PLD gets Royal Authority... how are these innately better or more "suitable" lvl 60 abilities?
There's zero wrong with the skill. This whole competition thing you have described here between other oGCDs just doesn't exist. Your oGCDs are all on the same team - the team of your personal DPS - They don't compete with one another.
In the most basic of DRK rotations you maintain enough MP to DA every C&S and use DP on cooldown until you TP floor, without ever mana flooring.
Its use for MP is largely for when you are AoEing. That is literally the only time a good DRK should be using an unbuffed C&S. You should be managing your MP such that this is the case and this whole "DA C&S costs the MP of the DA and the MP you missed out on from not using it unbuffed" is bogus logic. Its safety net MP, not MP that is part of your routine resource management. -
01-19-2016, 07:48 PMCarstien
Oh I am not disagreeing with that, as stated I love the skill and always use it for dps on single target but the value annoys me. 2500 mp for a 50 potency increase over plunge irks me. Nothing wrong with the skill, I'll continue to use it, but this bothers me.
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01-22-2016, 10:48 AMCynricAs Szygian stated the skill is a very good skill, But C&S goes beyond it's potency buff or mana regeneration ability. C&S is also one of the few skills you have that has absolutely no animation lock at all and can be double weaved with pretty much any other OGCD if done correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carstien
There are lots of tiny niche uses for the skill as well. Did you MP floor or make a mistake in management? C&S without DA can give you enough manae to get some snap hate with an unleash or almost enough to turn grit back on if you find yourself in a troublesome situation.
In AoE situations it gives you more mana to spam Abyssal Drain, or it can make the use of DA+ Dark Dance, DA + Dark passenger not as bad. If you plan out your rotation correctly you can still get a Dark Arts Souleater and a DA C&S right after each other. With Bloodbath up C&S is one of our most restorative OGCD's in terms of raw value. Under Blood Weapon, being a physical attack it still will restore a portion of mana back that was spent.
And again that animation is one of the easiest ones to cut off with another OGCD, which lets you do things like (DA+C&S)or (C&S+DA)if you already have a DA buff on you can spend it on C&S and prepare the next one for Dark Dance,Dark Passenger, or more commonly Soul Eater, ( C&S+BW), (C&S+DP),(C&S+Reprisal) you can even do (C&S + Mitigation CD)
It's just an overall versatile move in terms of its effects +MP/450 potency(both if BW on) and an easy to double weave animation. Probably one of my favorite moves in the entire kit. -
01-22-2016, 11:01 AMSyzygian
You know, I take it back, there is something wrong with the skill. The name.
Wtf are we spitting exactly? -
01-22-2016, 11:50 AMMagiusNecrosI think they made a typo. Carve and Split makes more sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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01-22-2016, 11:54 AMAnienaiQuote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Knowledge.. -
01-22-2016, 01:40 PMCynricYeah I mean I see a lot of carving but not a whole lot of spitting... Maybe it's something we do after? Then we eat the enemy to get MP back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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01-22-2016, 01:49 PMBrannigan
spit2
[spit]
noun
1.a pointed rod or bar for thrusting through and holding meat that is to be cooked before or over a fire.
2.any of various rods, pins, or the like used for particular purposes.
3.a narrow point of land projecting into the water.
4.a long, narrow shoal extending from the shore.
verb (used with object), spitted, spitting.
5.to pierce, stab, or transfix, as with a spit; impale on something sharp.
6.to thrust a spit into or through.
Spit as in a spit roast. You're butchering them like meat. Cut then stab.
Also Carve and Spit is fine. It's probably dark knight's best designed ability since the non-dark arts form of it does something that the DA form doesn't. It's not useful often if you're playing correctly but occasionally it comes into play. -
01-22-2016, 02:28 PMCynricbut we never impale or stab them D: where is the spitting?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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01-26-2016, 02:16 PMKietsu
To be fair, 60 skills don't seem to be intended to be *special* skills at all. Just look at Dissipation or Celestial Opposition or friggin' Royal Authority.
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01-31-2016, 03:15 AMTheMax1087
Whats your problem with royal authority? Out of the 13 lvl 60 skills I'd probably put it 5th in overall usefulness
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01-31-2016, 04:37 AMNyghtmarerobu
I was under the impression it was a much higher dps increase to use 2x DA-Souleaters v 1x DA-C&S. 2x 400pot v 1x450pot. Any math to back up that you should be using DA C&S at all, and not for the MP to get another DA-Souleater?
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01-31-2016, 04:49 AMshao32mmm lets test:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
150 +250+ 400 da se+ 100 c&s + 150 +250 + 400 da se= 1700 using c&s alone and 2 da+se
150 +250+ 280delirium + 450 da c&s+ 150 +250 + 400 da se= 1930 using c&s+da and delirium combo 1ยบ
is a dps win in 2 combos at least and in paper. -
01-31-2016, 05:39 AMSyzygianQuote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
Its not about potency its about MP to potency ratio.
Two DA SE's is 140x2 280 increase per 2 DAs, 1 C&S is +350 per DA.
C&S is your DPS priority every single time in a single-target scenario, over everything. -
01-31-2016, 04:31 PMKietsuIt's a great skill, it's just not particularly impressive and doesn't hugely change gameplay (despite how often you end up pressing it)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMax1087
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01-31-2016, 04:39 PMNinster
On a side note, why is this described as a "three-fold attack"? Ninjas get Dream Within A Dream and the two skills are apparently VERY different in the way damage is calculated.
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02-02-2016, 02:40 PMKietsu
Because of the (really neat) animation.
It's a bit weird because FFXIV tooltips are usually absolutely devoid of flavour text. -
02-05-2016, 10:59 PMConfidence_Trick
I'm not a fan of the Carve and Spit animation; it all looks rather weak. It's not like Fell Cleave, Inner Beast or Goring Blade where you really feel like you're slicing through your enemy's defences.
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02-06-2016, 12:18 AMSyzygianI dunno, looks rather epic to me. Sounds like a personal problem. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Confidence_Trick
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02-06-2016, 03:32 PMNinsterYeah, I was really thrown off by this, because I was trying to get my DRK friend to explain the difference to me and I had first thought (admittedly without using the move first) that without Dark Arts it was 100 potency x 3 (three-fold attack, right?) and that with Dark Arts it'd be... well, I was on the fence (450 x 3 would be just ridiculous, yet consistency...). My friend definitely corrected me on that account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kietsu
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02-11-2016, 04:33 AMMarduk33
What do you guys crit with C&S? Seems inferior to fel cleave. Especially When war's can triple fel cleave. Ive seen over 10k fc but never over 5k C&S. Halp please!
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02-11-2016, 04:40 AMSyzygianFC vs C&S is not a fair comparison. The former is stance dependent, on the gcd, and resides on a job whose dps is primarily in percentage based offensive buffs. The latter is off the gcd, independent of stance, and resides on a job whose dps lies in its higher base potencies and off-gcds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marduk33
That said, a 10K cleave is something that requires buffs/debuffs on yourself/the target. A carve with similar modifiers is probably only going to achieve 5-6K due to lack of a Berserk-style cooldown. Carve not costing a GCD makes up for this IMO. -
02-11-2016, 05:18 AMMarduk33Thanks for giving me some insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
I was wondering before where Drk strength lies.
Havent read much about them tbh. I just go into df and tank for tomes,
although sometimes i wish i did better. Too afraid to pug raids as for now. -
02-11-2016, 05:28 AMSyzygianI actually wrote a guide on these forums. Its in the front page. "Tanking on the edge" lol. Its likely imperfect as there are so few guides and resources out there for DRK with which to cross-examine your own work, but it may still prove helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marduk33
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02-11-2016, 05:42 AMMarduk33Haha yea i asked if there was a guide somewhere in my last reply but found yours so i edited out the question! Thanks ill read it and ask there if i have any further questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-11-2016, 06:29 AMMagiusNecrosFell Cleave will always do more. Lvl 54 skill locked by 5 stacks of banana's outclasses Lvl 60 skill with 60 second cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marduk33
Would pay for parry procs to have a chance to refresh all our oGCD skills and not just Low Blow. -
02-11-2016, 06:54 AMSyzygianWAR only gives the illusion of vastly superior DPS due to huge numbers. With maximum uptime and a slashing debuff they're about dead even with variance depending on if DRK is tanking or not. Just like a BLM vs MNK big individual hits don't always mean an equally big discrepancy in DPS. One is just flashier than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Any DPS boost to DRK would probably see them consistently topping WAR. DPS is not an area where DRK leaves much to be desired. -
02-11-2016, 10:20 AMMagiusNecrosI can feel awesome when in Blood Weapon mode but even then I feel like all my attacks are still so meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-11-2016, 01:08 PMSyzygianAsk MNKs if they think their DPS feels "meh". Its all the same, some people just like lots of fast smaller hits and some people like slow, big hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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02-11-2016, 08:36 PMMagiusNecrosIf slow hits with big numbers and fast hits with smaller numbers essentially have parity with one another is there any real difference in output?Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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02-12-2016, 07:47 PMCarstienSadly yes. The way fights are designed is with a certain amount of downtime usually interrupting play. That downtime can work heavily against the job with the bigger hits as more of their damage is dependant on hitting like a truck when they can. Shaving a few fast hits because of a boss going invulnerable isn't as much of an issue as when the boss goes invulnerable just in time to laugh off an 8k+ crit. Even if the attack isn't wasted it will usually take some time to put up the buffs and debuffs (Maim, storm's eye, disembowel, heavy thrust) again in order to get the benefit you need. The fast hitter is going to lose minimal by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
It's probably this which keeps mnk on top for personal damage and what stops WAR from running away with it. -
02-12-2016, 08:27 PMCarstienSmall niggle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Two da SE's is a 240 potency increase, not a 280 one. You are mistaking measuring da SE against regular SE, whereas you should be measuring it against delirium which is the skill you would be using without da if you are trying to dps.
Nothing major, just pointing it out.