How about a non-support ranged dps?

Since Bards and Machinists are both labled as "Support DPS" and saddled with the accompanying lower dps and weapon damage how about they add a ranged non-caster dps that isn't?

I think we could use a ranger class like from FFXI.

It'd be a mess with party composition if they insist on requiring there to be at least 1 job that provides regen, and they'd naturally be competing with caster dps (which then leads to an all-physical composition)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It'd be a mess with party composition if they insist on requiring there to be at least 1 job that provides regen, and they'd naturally be competing with caster dps (which then leads to an all-physical composition)

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Well then how are they going to justify adding any new DPS classes then?

I love bard, I love machinist.

I'd like to see these changed and given more dps. So they are support classes, but they only do less damage because they are giving support. Increase dps, and if SE must increase the casting time of mages ballad.


Right now they do less damage than everyone else even while never casting promotion/mages ballad/armies paeon.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

Well then how are they going to justify adding any new DPS classes then?

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By fitting them into the roles we have.

TBH we need more magic users. Only having 2 mage dps is really lacking.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

By fitting them into the roles we have.

TBH we need more magic users. Only having 2 mage dps is really lacking.

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So then do you agree with them adding Samurais? We have enough melee DPS.

I personally wasn't even expecting Machinist to be another Bard when it was announced. I thought it was their answer to the lack of pure physical ranged DPS. And honestly I don't know why they thought the two classes had to be so similar in the first place. But it happened, so, here we are. It was clear the Minuet/Gauss was their answer to a "DPS stance" but it didn't work out the way they intended so I'm curious to see future updates to the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Rhindas

I personally wasn't even expecting Machinist to be another Bard when it was announced. I thought it was their answer to the lack of pure physical ranged DPS. And honestly I don't know why they thought the two classes had to be so similar in the first place. But it happened, so, here we are. It was clear the Minuet/Gauss was their answer to a "DPS stance" but it didn't work out the way they intended so I'm curious to see future updates to the jobs.

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Agreed. I don't understand their decision to make mechanic a near carbon copy of BRD.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

So then do you agree with them adding Samurais? We have enough melee DPS.

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Red Mage is probably going to be the next DPS.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

So then do you agree with them adding Samurais? We have enough melee DPS.

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Different topic of debate entirely. If it was me Dark Knight's would have been postponed and Samurai added first as a tank class. As it stands I look at Dark Knight as Dark Paladin. And am vastly disappointed in how it performs. Good 30-50 job quests in story content though. 50-60 unfortunately were ass.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Different topic of debate entirely. If it was me Dark Knight's would have been postponed and Samurai added first as a tank class. As it stands I look at Dark Knight as Dark Paladin. And am vastly disappointed in how it performs. Good 30-50 job quests in story content though. 50-60 unfortunately were ass.

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So why is it fair for them to add another melee dps but not a pure ranged dps?

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

So why is it fair for them to add another melee dps but not a pure ranged dps?

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Because the dev team apparently has some jaded idea's on a melee dps they want to implement in their archaic battle system. Ask them. Not me. Good luck on getting an answer though.

Make the red mage melee healer. Make the dancer melee support. And bam! You get a room for pure range dps class... beastmaster with a long whip could be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Make the red mage melee healer.

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Melee healer + Judgement Nisi = ?
Melee healer + Searing Wind = ?

Those two mechanics alone make me think we aren't going to see a melee healer.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Make the red mage melee healer. Make the dancer melee support. And bam! You get a room for pure range dps class... beastmaster with a long whip could be interesting.

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Don't you think a healer would want to stay away from the action instead of being in melee range that could get their face smashed in?

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Melee healer + Judgement Nisi = ?
Melee healer + Searing Wind = ?

Those two mechanics alone make me think we aren't going to see a melee healer.

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Well it is a mage. I am sure we could overcome that with a job design.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Don't you think a healer would want to stay away from the action instead of being in melee range that could get their face smashed in?

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Look at warrior priests in Warhammer etc.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

By fitting them into the roles we have.

TBH we need more magic users. Only having 2 mage dps is really lacking.

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that is true but an int based melee is also not too far off. Red Mage and Dancer to name a few and I imagine they would be the melee equivalent of a "support" dps.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

So then do you agree with them adding Samurais? We have enough melee DPS.

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Personally I think when they add new jobs they should always release them in 4's. One tank, one melee, one ranged and one healer. HW only had three but NIN was released early so technically they satisfied the quota I stated earlier.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Look at warrior priests in Warhammer etc.

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Ok but this isn't Warhammer etc. Unless this new healer job were to have high defense so that they don't turn into paper when dealing with melee cleaves, then you might as well turn them into tanks.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Melee healer + Judgement Nisi = ?
Melee healer + Searing Wind = ?

Those two mechanics alone make me think we aren't going to see a melee healer.

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I think if said healer had ways to mitigate those types of spells, it could work. Maybe a healer version of Hallowed Ground? Or even just something like "Reduces one melee ranged attack by 50%". If Dancer were the melee healer, then I imagine a lot of their mechanics would involve dodging. So that's another way around it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I think if said healer had ways to mitigate those types of spells, it could work. Maybe a healer version of Hallowed Ground? Or even just something like "Reduces one melee ranged attack by 50%". If Dancer were the melee healer, then I imagine a lot of their mechanics would involve dodging. So that's another way around it.

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But, that's not what nisi or searing wind is, and something like HG wouldn't even help in tat regard. Unless you gave them an ability that gives absolute invincibility or straight up ignore boss mechanics, then that's practically OP.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I think if said healer had ways to mitigate those types of spells, it could work. Maybe a healer version of Hallowed Ground? Or even just something like "Reduces one melee ranged attack by 50%". If Dancer were the melee healer, then I imagine a lot of their mechanics would involve dodging. So that's another way around it.

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Judgement Nisi is a DoT on the healer that spreads to people that you touch and puts a DoT on them as well. There's two different ones and getting people with the different DoT's too close together will kill you instantly if memory serves. Searing Wind does AoE damage and a knockback centered on the healer with the debuff. Even a healer version of Hallowed Ground wouldn't work on either one and Esuna doesn't remove them. The problem is their effect on the party, not on the healer themselves.

Wanna see what Bards get in EQ2 in the early stages of the games life that will make you cry because they are cool?

Don't kill the Messenger:
Increases the groups base critical chance by 12.5% (A song, no other cost besides your limited by how many songs you can have.)

Allegro:
Increases the groups base casting speed by up to 12.5%. (I think high ranked version talented also reduces all GCDs by 12.5% as well!)

Songster's Luck
Increases the groups base accuracy by 12.5%

Selo's Accelerando
A song that increases the movement speed of the bard's group. It suspends during combat.
Increases movement speed of the group by 25%. Suspends when combat starts.

Bria's Inspiring Ballad
Increases Mana Regeneration of the group by a great bit.

Riana's Relentless Tune
Increases Attack Speed of the group by 12.5%

Luck of the Dirge
12% chance to absorb '1' attack when hit by anything.

Don't you wish bards and machinists had these cool types of abilities?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Ok but this isn't Warhammer etc. Unless this new healer job were to have high defense...

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Of course they would need better defense, but I imagine it something alongside melee dps.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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There could be ways around it. For example the melee healer could build up resources in melee combat while having abilities at hand when they can't be in melee. They would of course need some range healing skills. For example the red mage could be based aroud using teleports to jump between melee and range. Or they could have a "dummy" to which the negative effects would be redirected and which could soke up some damage for them.

Melee healers are not entirely impossible, it would just require some development time and I believe it would be unique playstyle from the current ones, which makes it more than appealing to at least consider.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Of course they would need better defense, but I imagine it something alongside melee dps.



There could be ways around it. For example the melee healer could build up resources in melee combat while having abilities at hand when they can't be in melee. They would of course need some range healing skills. For example the red mage could be based aroud using teleports to jump between melee and range. Or they could have a "dummy" to which the negative effects would be redirected and which could soke up some damage for them.

Melee healers are not entirely impossible, it would just require some development time and I believe it would be unique playstyle from the current ones, which makes it more than appealing to at least consider.

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Melee Healers are amazing and fun. Just look at Inquisitor skills as an example:

Inquest
An augmentation placed on an ally that grants them a chance at draining power from the target with every successful spell or attack, and returning a portion of this power back to the inquisitor. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally.

Inquisition
Forces an enemy to radiate heals to your allies. The closer your allies are to that enemy, the greater the heals.

Malevolent Diatribe
A group augmentation that heals an ally when they are attacked, and has a limited number of heals before expiring.

You could just make his healing combo into aoe healing spells around him.

He can also use a Mace or Flail as his main weapon.

Inquisitors used Plate Armor and had high physical defense, but low magical defense if I remember. They were made for healing in the thick of it and dealing a lot of damage but were not as good at healing as the other healers, but better ones (higher level) had good damage and good healing.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Melee healers are not entirely impossible, it would just require some development time and I believe it would be unique playstyle from the current ones, which makes it more than appealing to at least consider.

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It being impossible is not the problem, it's mechanics that interfere with a typical composition of 2 melees (which can get really extensive with player-targetted, and instead all you'll really get is a healer that is incredibly gimmicky), or healer exclusive mechanics such as searing winds that prevent you from healing anyone if you were limited to melee heals (or again, bottle neck you to a healer with incredibly gimmicky skills). At that point, encounters would have to be designed with that in mind and we're already limited on encounter mechanics as it is.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It being impossible is not the problem, it's mechanics that interfere with a typical composition of 2 melees (which can get really extensive with player-targetted, and instead all you'll really get is a healer that is incredibly gimmicky), or healer exclusive mechanics such as searing winds that prevent you from healing anyone if you were limited to melee heals (or again, bottle neck you to a healer with incredibly gimmicky skills). At that point, encounters would have to be designed with that in mind and we're already limited on encounter mechanics as it is.

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I wonder if this line of thought wasn't one of the reasons which created the MCH/BRD copy paste issue.

We are limited only by the resources, development decisions and creativity. Both mechanics and jobs can be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I think if said healer had ways to mitigate those types of spells, it could work. Maybe a healer version of Hallowed Ground? Or even just something like "Reduces one melee ranged attack by 50%". If Dancer were the melee healer, then I imagine a lot of their mechanics would involve dodging. So that's another way around it.

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The problem is these are moves specifically meant to kill anyone near the healer, forcing them to max out their healing range.

How about artillery? Heavy burst damage? No support skills but heavy hitting combos that need setup time and protection by the rest of the team? Kind of an anti support class.

Dual Pistol class.
Pure DPS, no support, some utility (a ranged DRG/MNK/NIN)
Very low per hit damage.
Insanely fast attacking. (Mechanics arround increasing auto-attack hits and damage).

... Ok, ill go to play gunslinger to RO.

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Originally Posted by Xanikk999

Agreed. I don't understand their decision to make mechanic a near carbon copy of BRD.

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They made it a support because every serious raiding group needs one, so every group needed a bard. So the game really needed an alternative to be available. People wouldnt bring a MCH instead of BRD if MCH wouldnt be able to provide the same support, which is the reason that every group brought a bard in the first place.

In terms or ranged dps, the slot it would compete with would be the 2nd melee, since every group wants 1 support, 1 mage (for magic dps) and 1 melee for LB. At that point you have one fourth slot free, which generally would be given to a melee because they provide the highest raid dps. This leaves a pure ranged dps in a very odd spot, since on one hand, why would you bring it if it wouldnt provide the same dps as a melee and on the other hand how would it be balanced, if it provided the same raid dps as a melee but had the advantage of being ranged? Food for thought.

The only solution would be if they thought of an entirely new sub role in the meta that only the pure ranged dps provided.

I don't see why having a melee healer unable to do nisi or searing wind is a big deal. Isn't the whole point of the game to play multiple jobs? Not every job has to be a good choice for every encounter like how if you have a lot of movement blm is a bad choice, etc. I personally think it would be more fun to play if you had to pick and chose party composition to play optimally rather than anything working anywhere.

Unless they want to get cuh-rayzee (which they have repeated over and over that they do not feel like they are ready to take that step.) I wouldn't expect another dex-based pure ranged DPS any time soon. The logic behind that isn't necessarily over playstyle rather than stat distribution.

We currently have 2 STR DPS, 2 INT DPS, and 3 DEX DPS. The addition of yet another Dex DPS would only make the distribution of Dex accessories even more bloated than it already is. I've pegged it as the most logical step for awhile that it would make the most sense to add two DPS when they decide to expand on classes once again. Mainly to even out the rest of the stat distribution. From there I think it would be most fitting (probably in say, 5.0 assuming that the ship doesn't sink.) to then expand a full party from 8 to 10 players, and then finally add support as it's own role, opening up room in any group to actually add a pure ranged DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I wonder if this line of thought wasn't one of the reasons which created the MCH/BRD copy paste issue.

We are limited only by the resources, development decisions and creativity. Both mechanics and jobs can be adjusted.

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There are no mechanics that directly interfere with MCH/BRD's gameplay though. In the case of healers, Searing Wind/Nisi directly conflicts with being in melee range of anyone voluntarily. It's not a good example to make. BRD/MCH feel like a copy/paste job because of them both having GB/WM, as well as MCH really having no outstanding mechanics exclusive to themselves, not what they (don't) bring to the table (compared to other roles anyway).

If MCH had an actual mechanic where it involved swapping barrels to toggle between AoE, damage:TP effiency, or timing ammo usage akin to aetherflow (or really, giving more than just two skills an additional effect in form of debuffs, DoTs or self heal) and not be an objective dps increase to be used as soon as it comes off cooldown (effectively turning it into an oGCD). They can design job gimmicks/mechanics that don't actively screw them over because of boss mechanics, looking at how DRK and AST turned out.

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

I don't see why having a melee healer unable to do nisi or searing wind is a big deal. Isn't the whole point of the game to play multiple jobs? Not every job has to be a good choice for every encounter like how if you have a lot of movement blm is a bad choice, etc. I personally think it would be more fun to play if you had to pick and chose party composition to play optimally rather than anything working anywhere.

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If the idea is "you play the job you want for the content", then sure, it's not a problem. It does become a problem if it comes to "any job can complete any content". At that point it becomes worse than what you see with PLD and AST in savage, because using your examples, a melee healer is completely useless and SoL for something like searing wind, or really any boss mechanic that discourages stacking (thunderstorms being a generic example). Not to mention most of the gear distribution actively discourages this with job-specific weapons and gear. Of course they can design future content to accommodate that, but it'd be an incredible anchor to what they can do if they have to assume the healer has to stay with someone to be able to heal them.

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Originally Posted by enthauptet

I don't see why having a melee healer unable to do nisi or searing wind is a big deal. Isn't the whole point of the game to play multiple jobs? Not every job has to be a good choice for every encounter like how if you have a lot of movement blm is a bad choice, etc. I personally think it would be more fun to play if you had to pick and chose party composition to play optimally rather than anything working anywhere.

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Oh I agree with that. After all, if you mained a BRD or MCH or even an AST when Alexander was new in 3.0, you should go play another class because those 3 classes were the laughing stock of raid parties and no one would want to take you in. You're right, it would be a lot more fun if we had to pick who can raid and who got told to go home.

A shame they couldn't make a dancer as the support dps since that seems the most obvious choice ... instead we got another melee ranged dps in the form of MCH.

why would any1 take a melee healer ? it needs to bring awesome heals or awesome buffs in order to even have a chance , plus like ppl have said there mechanics for heals , and plenty of examples, lots of bosse have debuffs just for heals to manage....if u add another body to the melee u will have lots of issues...

and MCH was created because we had 2 tanks , 2 heals , 2 mages , 2 melees (+1 with nin) , so adding a ranged was in order however MCH has nothing going for it...it was promised as X and in the end delivered BRD copycapt with some changes (chain skills , lame turrets for dmg and buffs instead of song) and all the CC in 1 job , heavy , stun , silence , knockback , and root. Some CD sharing to make it fair and call it a day. Oh forgot about wildfire that unique i guess.

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Originally Posted by Bloodb

Right now they do less damage than everyone else even while never casting promotion/mages ballad/armies paeon.

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THIS RIGHT HERE!
Why can't they have BRD/MCH's DPS on par with other classes except for when they are using a support ability, then and only then drop their DPS to keep them balanced.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

why would any1 take a melee healer?

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It could be healing through dpsing... make it "warrior" but healer and the problem is solved.

What can be brought into FF14 from this list ?

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Jobs

So you want a DPS/healer hybrid without the cleric stance? I think it's gonna take more than making a melee healer with DPS strats in mind for the problem to "be solved".


Healers aren't meant to join the fray for any reason whatsoever. There is no benefit for having a healer being in melee range unless they are trolling the party. It's too much risk for little rewards. As I said before, if you are going to make this special melee healer have more defense to compensate and thus have more durability than a mage healer, just make the darn job a new tanking class and be done with it.