"Battle fever comes over the Heaven's Ward!"

Something I was thinking about while trying to clear Thordan EX.

At the thordan fights, this little phrase comes up every now and then, usually when the knights kill someone(feel free to correct me)

But storywise, you are alone.

If storywise you are alone, odds are you are not killed multiple times(since just the one would do)

So what are they doing to you that causes their battle fever?

I guess my question can be best summed up as "in a battle where you are alone in the story but in a group in game, what is the equivalent of a party member dying?"

The sound of one hand clapping.

I've never interpreted the story "canon" to imply that you are alone. It's YOU, THE WARRIOR OF LIGHT and all your little helpers. Most of the time, the dialogue leading up to the fight explicitly suggests that you gather allies before tackling the challenge (though there are some puzzling exceptions like the Nabriales fight, where the situation makes it unlikely that you have time to round up your crew).

Anyway, you're a leader, not a loner. You bring together the people to get things done. And when your helpers die, the Heaven's Ward's blood boils with righteousness!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I've never interpreted the story "canon" to imply that you are alone.

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It must, I find it hard to believe that SE is inconsistent whenever they feel like it with exceptions here and there when it serves their narrative. As you mentioned with Nabriales, but you were also caught alone with Ysayle in the Ravana quest. They thought of an excuse with Ifrit, but it was an extremely flimsy one (lol, there's a path they don't know about, use it to escape whenever you feel like). The OP actually has a really interesting point here, because why would you have helpers in the ARF? Think of how the events unfold to get there. You're separated from your friends, roaming around with extremely hostile Allagan tech and Garleans all around you. Then you ride on Midgardsormr to the ARF.

There's no way anyone can canonically be there other than you, the Garleans, Thordan and his entourage, and the Ascians.

Regarding the later part -

I'd argue that the Warrior of Light is not a leader at all. There was a a relatively big debate on this in another thread, but we're there to follow, to protect, not to guide. Hence why we were so lost at the start of Heavensward without the Scions, looking for a purpose.

Actually, if we assume our allies are also scions (Which would make since story wise as out allies are all player characters) that when all hell broke lose before the Nebralius fight that allies came running to our aid. (Small room in a small building means SOMEONE was bound to have heard that explosion)

As for Ravana, he actually tells us that he will wait until we are prepared. So we easily had time to tap the Scion linkshell and go "Guys, I need back up in The Dravanian Forelands asap. Meet at the Gnath Stronghold." and every one port/ride over there in a short amount of time.

Remember also, that story wise teleportation is instantaneous. So porting to Anex Trine's Aetherite + a short ride (And even shorter flight) could have got 7 others there in minutes.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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All of those seem like you're stretching justification to me. All of them - especially Nabriales. That portal is supposed to be closing - even waiting 30 seconds would have been to much.

The second one makes no mention of bringing others or the Gnath letting others come through their lands unmolested. You're in the depths of the Hive, I'm pretty sure you can't just come there when the WoL calls you. Furthermore, why would the Gnath allow you to call your friends for aid?

So for the last one? What was the point of everything before that, then, and how did they get they to the ARF? Even assuming our "helpers" aren't bound by the same rules we are in having to Attune to the currents, they had to have gone on our super secret, almost unique little flying machine. So they'd be flying over one by one, or two by two, if they can teleport your chocobo with them (which is another one of those stretching it bits). Way to take your time when your friends are all fighting and, as far as you know, dying on your behalf, WoL. That's almost comical, actually. (Keep in mind, things like Kirin and the Magitek didn't fly until 3.1, so we can't really consider them).

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Way to take your time when your friends are all fighting and, as far as you know, dying on your behalf, WoL. That's almost comical, actually.

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It is rather funny, actually. I could imagine the Nabriales fight going like this:

Random Adventurer: Hey, I need help fending off this Treant.
Random Adventurer 2: Sod that. The Anticedent's been kidnapped!
Random Adventurer: The Antecedent's kidnapped? (drops weapons) then what are ye waiting fer!? (both leave the Treant to continue it's rampage)

And as for Ravana...

Random Adventure in the Sea of Clouds: Minfilia, where are you.
Linkshell-using Scion: Hey there's a primal summoning in the Forelands.
Adventurer: We're storm the Forelands!
(an hour later)
Adventurer: (storms the Loth with 6 other people) LEROY JENKINS!

much later, as Thordian becomes pope-primal

Adventurer (Back at the Sea of Clouds): Guys the unthinkable's happened. Thordian's became a primal. We need to get to Azys Lla ASAP
Adventurer 2: But how do we there? There's a barrier around there genius:
(The group notices a herd of Sanuwa)
Adventuer: I got a plan
(Meanwhile, on his way to Ishgard, Briardien sences an essence similar to Hildibrand's above Alabathia's Spine)

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

The second one makes no mention of bringing others or the Gnath letting others come through their lands unmolested. You're in the depths of the Hive, I'm pretty sure you can't just come there when the WoL calls you. Furthermore, why would the Gnath allow you to call your friends for aid?

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The Ravana one actually has an out - Ysale mentions (I think as you're headed into the room with Ravana before she tries to fight him) that she can hear running water nearby and that it could serve as a means of a quick escape should things go south (and I believe she also mentions if the need to gather allies is there).

It's the same thing with the Ifrit quest...there's an NPC that mentions that there's a passage out through a watery cave system nearby if you need to escape and/or get allies, and I believe also mentions that they can't all flee as they would be chased and cut down if they tried.

I have always assumed that WoL is with allies during major boss fights, with the exception being Nabriales since you probably didn't have time to gather mercs. It's supported by npcs telling you to gather allies first in several instances. So, I would find it hard to believe we fought the Ascian prime & Thordan alone.

If you take the Midlander Hyur Warrior/Dragoon to be the canon "main Warrior of Light", then, yes, he does fight in a group with a Miqo'te Female Bard, Elezen Male Black Mage, Lalafell Female White Mage, and Roegadyn Male Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

So, I would find it hard to believe we fought the Ascian prime & Thordan alone.

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Let's just ignore everything else I said up there and focus on this for a second:
If the Warrior of Light can defeat Nabriales alone, in his own realm, without the Blessing, purely with their own skill, why is it difficult to believe that, after the power you've gained in Heavensward, and the full, stronger than ever, Blessing you re-obtained, that you wouldn't be able to beat Ascian Prime alone, this time on Hydaelyn, where the WoL has the advantage?

Belated Edit: And to further that, why would Elidibus contemplate that the WoL is encroaching on the realm of the Gods if you have three others with you? It was the events in the ARF that caused this deduction and if there were 3 others with you, the WoL could very well have been carried by them (for the record, I actually go into ARF and carry runs myself, because there's no iLevel cap and can basically tank everything post-205 as a WHM). But no, he's referring to you, specifically.

Part of the reason is because Hydaelyn, for all her help with the crystals, is repeatedly said to be very weak. Its empasized when Krile uses a Crystal of Light from a past era, one the size of a bowling ball compared to our chicklets. Why is this reiterated, when just prior we somehow steamroll 14 individual primals in one fight, by ourselves?

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Part of the reason is because Hydaelyn, for all her help with the crystals, is repeatedly said to be very weak. Its empasized when Krile uses a Crystal of Light from a past era, one the size of a bowling ball compared to our chicklets. Why is this reiterated, when just prior we somehow steamroll 14 individual primals in one fight, by ourselves?

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well if you think about it we are just naturally powerful hydaelyn's "blessing of light" doesn't make us stronger it just acts like a shield and a direct connection to hydaelyn. if you look back in the story look at how much we did even after middy took the "blessing of light" from us.

In this case it's just flavor text the devs used. Since, the original fight (not the EX) had us alone, more or less.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

well if you think about it we are just naturally powerful hydaelyn's "blessing of light" doesn't make us stronger it just acts like a shield and a direct connection to hydaelyn. if you look back in the story look at how much we did even after middy took the "blessing of light" from us.

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The Blessing is what allows us to fight the darkness. So the Blessing would absolutely give us an advantage over the Ascians in the ARF, especially when they themselves say straight out in ARF that it was what defeated them. That we did what we did in Heavensward absolutely shows our skill and that exactly proves my point, in that we're very, very strong (encroaching on the power of Gods) without the Blessing, we don't need, and did not use helpers in these battles. With the Blessing, against the Ascians, we are beasts.

That being said, I will concede that we do use friends in some cases, for example, Void Ark. However, there are certain parts of the MSQ where I simply do not see it as feasible at all. Randomly bringing people with you into the ARF all just feels like a weak justification to me when the only way they could get there at all would be ignoring the universe's laws (aether currents).

Also, since the EX primals were mentioned - Lahabrea's servants were intentionally targeting you in your greater strength, so, yes, they were expecting your strength, not the strength of a half dozen random echo users. That was their entire purpose. I don't really see how they are being used as an argument here? Are you saying that, because there are a lot of them, the WoL couldn't beat them, even one-by-one?

Edit edit: Actually, look at Unukalhai's quests. You have to do this wierd, specialized ritual to encounter RavEx and BisEx with super rare items that even the beast tribes themselves didn't know still existed. Items that were destroyed after you attune to the crystal.
How did we bring friends there, again? Because they wouldn't be attuned. The same goes for Shiva in the MSQ, really.
(I actually have theories about that ritual, but this is neither the time, nor the place for them. However, I can't be the only one who saw the red light when we fight them right after Lahabrea and Igeyorhm tell us how much we despise the Primals and are looking for more of them to fight, then use ancient ritual tools given to us by someone who is totally not an Ascian's servant to encounter them, right?)

I was going to include pictures, but that will have to come later. The point i was making was in regards to this trial, though yes I am in the camp that believes that a lot of the actions in Heavensward was done on our own, also because the NPCs in the story do not pay any attention to any assistance we receive, as far as the rest of Eorzea is concerned, the WoL and only the WoL saved them, not that random nin from Zalera that drove the killshot in, the story only acknowledges the accomplishments as your own, unless stated otherwise like in ifrit and such where they say "your companions went here and together, you did this."

In the Reactor battle, unlike other trials depicting a crew of members, we face Thordan and the knights alone. The cutscene before and after includes no other party members but ourselves. This isn't a case of ps3 limitations, this was an intentional decision.

Its why i was curious about the implications of "Battle fever comes over the Heaven's Ward!" And the story conundrum of the personal equivalent of a party member dying, since im not sure it counts as fluctuations in the blessing's strength, or even a function of the blessing at all.

Here's my final explanation. "Battle Fever" is a solo limit break and that's all they were using and it charges up by a combination of us feeding them an ass kicking and Thorden feeding them Aether from the Eye as the "Alpha Primal" of the set. BUT when all 13 of them have their full LBs (Thorden's taking the longest) they call forth their ultimate attack by surrounding the enemy and invoking Leroy Jenkins all at the same time thus why there's so much knock backs.

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Originally Posted by RomildaRayne

If you take the Midlander Hyur Warrior/Dragoon to be the canon "main Warrior of Light", then, yes, he does fight in a group with a Miqo'te Female Bard, Elezen Male Black Mage, Lalafell Female White Mage, and Roegadyn Male Paladin.

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Aren't those the Warriors of Darkness, though?

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Aren't those the Warriors of Darkness, though?

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Yes, but the Warriors of Darkness were/are the Warriors of Light that disappeared at Cartenoue.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Yes, but the Warriors of Darkness were/are the Warriors of Light that disappeared at Cartenoue.

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Right, but I was just saying that as of "A Realm Reborn" and "Heavensward", that group isn't the canon "Main Warrior of Light group".

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Right, but I was just saying that as of "A Realm Reborn" and "Heavensward", that group isn't the canon "Main Warrior of Light group".

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Right, I wadger their status as disposed Warriors of Light will be a plot point tin 3.2 and 3.3

In the Battle for the Big Bridge, Gilgamesh specifically says "Fighting all eight of you... Is just too much for me..."

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Originally Posted by Grayve

In the Battle for the Big Bridge, Gilgamesh specifically says "Fighting all eight of you... Is just too much for me..."

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I'm not sure what this is in relation to, I wasn't saying that every trial battle was performed alone.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

In the Battle for the Big Bridge, Gilgamesh specifically says "Fighting all eight of you... Is just too much for me..."

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Which is even funnier if you undersize it since at that point it just seems like Greg took one too many blows to the head.

I tend to assume that the WoL is "canonically" alone in most fights unless explicitly shown/told otherwise since that makes the most sense in terms of the reputation you garner, neverminding a great many specific fights where it would make no real sense or REALLY break the flow narratively to think of the WoL going "Hey hold up lemme just call up a buncha friends first to see who can come...". This game has some hardcore story/gameplay segregation at times, and sometimes (oftentimes) it's just that it'd be a more intense battle as an 8-player instance than as an easy solo-able nothing that just pops up in an MSQ instance.

Even the journal mentions gathering companions most of the time:

Ifrit Hard:

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Originally Posted by Ifrit Bleeds, We Can Kill It Journal Entry

You have attuned yourself to the Zahar'ak aetheryte, and the path to the Bowl of Embers lies wide open. Assemble your stoutest adventuring comrades, and vanquish the Lord of the Inferno.

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Garuda Hard:

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Originally Posted by In for a Garuda Awakening Journal Entry

You have successfully attuned yourself to the Natalan aetheryte, and the path to the Howling Eye lies wide open. Assemble your stoutest adventuring comrades, and vanquish the Lady of the Vortex.

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Titan Hard:

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Originally Posted by In a Titan Spot Journal Entry

You have successfully attuned yourself to the U'Ghamaro aetheryte, and the path to the Navel lies wide open. Assemble your stoutest adventuring comrades, and vanquish the Lord of Crags.

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Garuda EX:

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Originally Posted by Gale Force Warning Journal Entry

You have fought past the ranks of the Ixal to once more stand before the Natalan Aetheryte. Assemble your companions, and do battle with the Lady of the Vortex!

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Titan EX:

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Originally Posted by Quake Me Up Before You O'Ghomoro Journal Entry

You have re-attuned to the aetheryte hidden within U'Ghamaro Mines. Assemble your companions, and storm the domain of the Lord of Crags!

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Ifrit EX:

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Originally Posted by Ifrit Ain't Broke Journal Entry

You have re-attuned to the aetheryte at Zahar'ak. Assemble your companions, and confront the Lord of the Inferno in his own domain.

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Ramuh EX:

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Originally Posted by Judgement Bolts and Lightning Journal Entry

You have attuned yourself to the Sylphlands aetheryte. Gather your companions, and challenge the Lord of Levin beneath the boughs of the Striking Tree!

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Shiva EX:

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Originally Posted by Drop Dead Shiva Journal Entry

The Temple Knight stands ready to guide you through the tunnels. Assemble your companions and do what you must for the good of the realm.

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Odin:

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Originally Posted by Fear and Odin in the Shroud Journal Entry

O-App-Pesi wastes no words: you are to head a company of adventurers against the Dark Divinity. The brother and E-Sumi-Yan will behold your battle with Odin from afar in hopes of learning why the primal is never long gone from the Shroud. When you are ready, proceed to Urth's Fount and challenge Odin.

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Bismarck:

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Originally Posted by Bolt, Chain, and Island Journal Entry

Cid's preparations have proceeded smoothly, and the required chains and ballistae have already been delivered to the Sea of Clouds. You need but notify Wedge when you have assembled your party of brave companions, and you will be ferried to the island provided by the Zundu.

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I saw no mention of assembling companions in the journal entries for Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, King Moogle Mog EX, Leviathan EX (only mentions "preparations"), Ravana Hard, Bismarck EX, Ravana EX, Thordan, or The Chrysalis.

Whether you were really alone in those fights, I'm not so sure.
(But you could also chalk this up to gameplay and story segregation; storywise we were alone, but it makes for more interesting gameplay to fight as a party.)

Not entirely related, but the journal has some interesting things at times if you take the time to read it.

For example, the anima questline. When you return to the Vault during the second portion, it says you're in your memories, but does that imply you're somehow using the Echo to strengthen the weapon, which previously was only responding minimally?

It's the same conceit used to explain how you can redo the Crystal Tower raids even when the story makes it quite clear you don't have access to those locations anymore. Lots of action manga reference something called "image training" (it's a fake loanword, so "image" is short for "imagination"), which is basically the idea that replaying a situation in your head can serve as a poor-man's substitute for VR training and make you more accustomed to that situation when you encounter it again. If there's an actual western equivalent, I dunno what it's called. </loserweeb> There is some proven correlation between imagination and motor control development, so it's not totally unscientific and absurd. It's what makes imitating something you've seen someone else do possible in the first place.

Ultimately, it's just the Literary Agent Hypothesis applied to game mechanics. You level up by replaying dungeons in your head as they might have gone on your current Job. It's only so effective for long periods of time, so the chain bonus only lasts one level and the Challenge Log bonus is only available once a week. That loot you just got after weeks of grinding? You got it the first time and just misplaced it. Still trying to figure out where G'raha put my WoD tank boots...

Kinda makes me wonder if we'll need to ask Noah directly for some pearls to strengthen it later on...

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

So yer sayin' I already have the tomestones / token items fer me Anima Weapon, I just have ta realize it by grinding old content over an' over?

An' here I thought muh sanity was degraded bad enough from werkin' 10(ish) hours a day an' failin' college an' havin' ta move out...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

So yer sayin' I already have the tomestones / token items fer me Anima Weapon, I just have ta realize it by grinding old content over an' over?

An' here I thought muh sanity was degraded bad enough from werkin' 10(ish) hours a day an' failin' college an' havin' ta move out...

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Tell me about it, I have to wonder how many Beast tribe quests I've done in my head for all those tokens after I sword off Alexander.

The Warrior of Light is a lunatic.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Tell me about it, I have to wonder how many Beast tribe quests I've done in my head for all those tokens after I sword off Alexander.

The Warrior of Light is a lunatic.

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Ehh, I'm mostly done, just run into a wall with the Shells since I can't do the Sahagin quests, hate A2, and have no easy source of Poetics in large quantities.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ehh, I'm mostly done, just run into a wall with the Shells since I can't do the Sahagin quests, hate A2, and have no easy source of Poetics in large quantities.

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I actually finished a couple of days ago, but now I'm sitting on extra poetics and Law, so I figured I'd start a second one.

I'm not sure if the Warrior of Light is a lunatic, or it's just me.

I'm confused about this too. When in ARF fighting Lahabrea & Igeyorhm, Igeyorhm states "No, I will not loose to the likes of them". Lahabrea responds "Let us show them the true power of the Echo" right before fusing. Now, they implicitly state plural empasis on their statements emplying we're not alone in ARF.

However, after they are defeated by the primal Thordan, Thordan then states that it is within the WoL's nature to defeat primals thus s/he will come for him and his knights as they'll seep aether from Hydaelyn. Thing is, does Thordan and the Knights Twelve wait for the WoL and his crew or do they fight immediately afterwards. Even if the WoL bands a group of adventurers who's to say that Thordan and his gang will even wait for them and unleash hell on the dragons and do their own plans while the WoL take's care of his/her own? If they fight then and there where did they get the other 4 members from and how do they escape ARF at the end? Only the WoL is seen.

It just raises too many questions...

Ad far as the "image training" goes, we have the Echo to take it to the next level. We simply cause a 1.0 style "Echo-Ception" (which could actually allow items from the past to come back with us) in order to replay the battle in one of the infinite alternate timelines that could have occurred and then bring any items we won back to our present. Thus the duty finder.

The Party finder would work the same but intentionally chosing a timeline in which the grouped echo users were in the battle together.