Why do people still single target mobs when there are 3 or more?

Someone please explain to me why, i really don't understand.

Because jobs like Ninja have the worst AOE in game and DRG will burn all of its TP if the 3+ mobs are high health targets.

120 TP cost for melee AOE OP.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

120 TP cost for melee AOE OP.

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Or 160 in the case of Doom Spike.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Or 160 in the case of Doom Spike.

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and a DRG should never, under any circumstance ever use Ring of Thorns if they AOE.

As a ninja I'll do full AoE spam only with at least 4 or sometimes 5 mobs. It's not worth Kassatsu, burning all my TP, and Invigorate just for 3 mobs.

Because SE gave BLM a bad assed set of solo target skill and weaken BLM's AOE skills back in 3.0

Ill aoe as a monk with 3. But mind you thats just throwing rockbreaker in my rotation its not that huge.

I don't start properly AOE until four or up, aka, too hard (/lazy) to keep my dots up on everything after that.

Just hitting one ability over and over again is also very boring. It's more engaging, at least for me, to work on targets mostly one at a time, except for specific pulls.

The faster one or two mobs in the group get killed, the sooner it may be safe for the healer to join in with DPS.

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

The faster one or two mobs in the group get killed, the sooner it may be safe for the healer to join in with DPS.

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I'd be interested if this is actually more efficient or not. AOE attacks by a DPS I'd imagine would outweigh a healer in cleric stance considering the potential need for switch backs/ negative trait removals.

Freeing up a WHM to do Cleric Stance -> Assize -> Holy -> Holy -> Holy -> Out of Cleric Stance to start healing again is going to outweigh the difference in DPS single-target and AoE pretty heavily.

Dot 3, spam rain of death procs, reapply dots - just to easy to do as bard, maybe throw quick knock in there as well - but that generally only if 4+ targets - otherwise not really TP efficient. On monk rockbreaker all teh things...

Last time I multidotted in Dzamael as a BRD, tank let me take the agro, healer didn't heal me and then they laughed.
So here is your answer. :))

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Last time I multidotted in Dzamael as a BRD, tank let me take the agro, healer didn't heal me and then they laughed.
So here is your answer. :))

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Even after Quelling?

Shoulda punched them in the nads.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Even after Quelling?

Shoulda punched them in the nads.

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Quelling doesn't help you if tank marks one mob as 1 and doesn't care about other 2. For me mark 1 means main target, but definitely not single target.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

and a DRG should never, under any circumstance ever use Ring of Thorns if they AOE.

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A proc'ed Ring of Thorns following Heavy Thrust, when leading ST rotational alignment and BotD needs by 1 GCD, would beg to differ, even if this means losing 17 potency on the HT reapplication... In a true AoE spam, all the more so. Saving 40 TP is worth the one GCD per 24s.

@OP

The AoE dps of too many jobs just don't really see noticable gains compared to Single-target to warrant the tank/healer burden diminishing slower. Killing 1, reducing raid damage taken by a ~third (and then another for half), allowing the tank to drop tank stance and/or healer to throw in more filler damage / perfect DoT uptime, can often have quicker clear times. In intense cases, it can also allow the tank and/or healer to save CDs. (Note, this is rarely the case or at least rarely a requirement, as most CDs needs can simply be made up for by healers healing a higher percentage of the time / lost raid DPS elsewhere...) Many will multi-DoT (in a casual pull if the Bard doesn't multi-DoT after acquiring the River of Blood trait, that's nearly a licence to kick), but true AoE spamming when TP reserves would clearly run out before the mob group even hits half health is rarely worth it at 3 mobs.

Until now, as a DRG I was never using Ring of Thornes because it dealt too low damage and it's too complicated to make it deal decent damage when in the middle of a big pack of mobs (target one mob of the pack, align correctly, first skill then proc'ed AOE... and repeat). But recently, I noticed that with my current stuff, I was doing a lot of critical hits with that skill so now, I'm using it sometimes. Only sometimes, most of the time I stick with my rotation and single-target mobs. That's still far more efficient.

Depends. It's not always worth melee dps slipping into an AoE rotation when it's only three mobs. It's very TP inefficient and in my experience, tends to go slower than if you just burned them down normally one at a time. If there's a troublesome priority target among them I'll focus that down single-target too no matter how many more mobs are present.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

I'd be interested if this is actually more efficient or not. AOE attacks by a DPS I'd imagine would outweigh a healer in cleric stance considering the potential need for switch backs/ negative trait removals.

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As my Monk, my "AoE Rotation" is only shoehorning Rockbreaker into my rotation and that's pretty lackluster for the amount of TP is costs, especially on only three targets.

When it comes to certain DPS roles "The spirit is willing but the flesh is spongy and bruised."

It seems that certain folks don't realize (or more accurately, care) that certain DPS are not ideally suited to AOE zerg-fests. And, frankly, on 3 or less mobs, I'm not going to blow through my TP, plus my Invigorate, just because you're Crendor's GOGOGO Shaman. Want DPS that can AOE burn through 2+ packs, pray you get a class more efficiently suited to it.

In fact, I've only encountered ONE tank, ONE FREAKING AWESOME TANK, who realized that they were in a group with a MNK & DRG for dps and adjusted tactics accordingly. Most others would complain about it taking too long.

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide
there all the math you need for ninja aoe and how terrible it is

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Originally Posted by Taei

Someone please explain to me why, i really don't understand.

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3 mobs is an insufficient quantity of mobs to make burning through TP for AoE moves efficient. Go figure...some classes / jobs are intended to be single target damage dealers and aren't as effective with AoE. That said, give me Blood Bath and Ring of Thorns on 8+ mobs any day. At that point the damage being done will actually be worth it. However, I'm still going to run out of TP very fast.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

Because SE gave BLM a bad assed set of solo target skill and weaken BLM's AOE skills back in 3.0

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BLM AoE is still more dps than single target on 3 mobs, by quite a bit.

Monk AoE is really good so it annoys me when people don't do it as a Monk. You don't have to use arm of the destroyer, just keep dk and twin snakes up, rockbreaker on the 3rd attack, weave your buffs and OCD's, you have two tp regaining skills as well...

Crit Rockbreaker, Elixir Field, and Howling Fist is really good damage <3

Considering the refresh rate of Elixir Field, Blood for Blood and Internal Release, I don't mind AoEing whenever available, even on three mobs. Two full AoE rotations then back to single targeting and the mobs should be pretty close to gone even before popping Invigorate. The only time I don't bother is if its a mob before a boss fight, otherwise there's no real benefit to not using it, as the time between mobs is usually long enough for the TP to regenerate and most cooldowns.

Let us also not forget that, while it's not typically true on every single pull, there are pulls where there is a single mob that is the main cause of damage to the tank while the rest are much more minimal. Killing that mob faster means increasing tank survivability thus taking stress off of the healers which then may also allow the healer to DPS more on the remaining mobs and increase the rate at which the pull can be downed. Alternately, you can try and quick burn the smaller adds if they have low HP values and are quick kills leaving you to deal with that singular mob in a much more controlled manner.

Really, the thing to remember is that not every pull is the same and needs to be handled the same way. While a majority of trash pulls can be burned through quickly with decent AoE, the real key to progressing through any content quickly is adapting to the situation at hand with the party composition you currently have, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of these particular jobs/classes at hand and aligning your tactics to best suit the composition you're working with.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Someone please explain to me why, i really don't understand.

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Because they're bad. Or out of tp, which if they're not, they're bad thinking it's important for some reason to stay @ 900 ish.

Wanderer's Minuet has really helped BRD for AOE. WM keeps the damage up while the cast time provides more time for TP regeneration. Coupled with Invigorate, I can usually handle any trash mob pulls through to the next boss, only going single target if I get down too low. Even when on single target, I will usually use Rain of Death instead of Bloodletter when it procs if there are 2 or more mobs still up.

I use Quick Nock over Wide Volley most of the time, except for chaotic times when the grouping of mobs sucks. 140 TP vs 160 for the same dmg. I keep my target on whatever has lowest health unless that screws up the pattern for the conal AOE. I use key single target skills when they are available, weaving around the AOEs.

I will often AOE at even 2 mobs left. 110 dmg Quick Nock (or Wide Volly) AOE for 2 mobs = 220 total, versus 150 for a Heavy Shot. Can't argue about 46% increase in overall damage.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

http://dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/...as-ninja-guide
there all the math you need for ninja aoe and how terrible it is

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Conclusion: AoE spam is better on 4+ mobs if TP is not an issue. Once you hit 0 TP from AoE spam, if there are still 7+ mobs, continue to AoE. If there are less than 7 mobs, it's better to rotate DoTs on targets & single target.

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So NIN's AOE is the worst in the game, yet still better than single target @ 4+ mobs.

Also @ the idea that single targeting allows the healer to DPS more: It doesn't. If there are only 3 mobs, the healer won't even be healing. If there are enough for the healer to AOE then you're going to gain more group DPS by AOEing and letting the healer DPS whenever they're able to.

DRG has aoe as part of their single target rotation so no real need to do a full aoe spam, a single buffed ring of thorns is worth doing after each heavy thrust then straight back into single target again, dropping phleb to make sure u dont lose BOTD. still i would only do this if there is about 5+ mobs

Sometimes I single target specifically to kill weaker mobs that can be killed quickly and cut down on the damage to the tank. A smaller group can be managed for longer.

Note sometimes, not all the time.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

I'd be interested if this is actually more efficient or not. AOE attacks by a DPS I'd imagine would outweigh a healer in cleric stance considering the potential need for switch backs/ negative trait removals.

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Yeah I don't think it does. The less mobs there are the less a healers AOE dPS is going to help. Aero III nearly all of SMN's dots need to be put on the mobs early otherwise you're wasting resources.

I don't know much about AST, but adding AOE when there is 8 mobs vs when their are only 4mobs left is a lot less dPS. And healers usually have a way to keep tank alive along with their cool downs so they can dPS early without risk of death.

It's really not that difficult to dPS early on. Infact later on usually means tank might not have cool downs cuz focusing is dPS loss if it's a lot of mobs.

If players are doing the CORRECT AEO you wouldn't have to issues. I ran The Vault with a BRD and a Drg and since bard used His Tp sons and Dragoon positioned correctly for his AEO healer ONLY used dots if he had time but we ran it really quick. The I ran Vault with a Mnk and same BRD and MNK was only single target it took us 40+ min. So it isn't about running out of tp but knowing how to ROTATE the skills appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Deathcharge

If players are doing the CORRECT AEO you wouldn't have to issues. I ran The Vault with a BRD and a Drg and since bard used His Tp songs and Dragoon positioned correctly for his AEO healer ONLY used dots if he had time but we ran it really quick. Then I ran Vault with a Mnk and same BRD and MNK was only single target it took us 40+ min. So it isn't about running out of tp but knowing how to ROTATE the skills appropriately.

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I hate iPhone autocorrect some days.

I usually only AoE on MNK when there's 4+ targets.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

BLM AoE is still more dps than single target on 3 mobs, by quite a bit.

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That's compared to fire 1 only(before 3.0). With fire4 single target is a bit better. ^^

Still aoing 3 mobs is a good way not to waste enochian if you close to a boss and some junk mobs appear ^^.

I gauge it based off pull speed and pack kill time, quantity is a non-factor at 3+. Are the other people putting out enough aoe to kill the pack at or close to my 0 tp run, and is there suffecient time to recover tp before the next full stop. Are there any high threat targets (usually open with ct combo on that one to soften it up for the aoe fest). Is the tank chain pulling even if there is no mnk in group (seriously why is this a thing?).

These are just a few considerations any decent dps has running through their head when deciding to aoe or not. Just as any decent tank will gauge there pull sizes based on resources left ie buffs compaired to expected incoming sustained dmg and ground coverage of aoe attacks.

Personally I use fire IV a lot on high MP mobs even in a group and bosses, and fire II and flares for lower hp multiple mob pulls.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Once you hit 0 TP from AoE spam, if there are still 7+ mobs, continue to AoE.

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How do you even.. ?