who gets the drop if you only need 2 melee dps?

everyone keeps saying MNK, but mnk does great dps and can aoe better than the other 2 melee.

with nearly every class has their own tp restore, isnt dropping NIN a better option? especially since WAR is undroppable

Aoe dps is kinda meh. Nobody really cares if monk aoe is good because it just doesn't matter. Even in a2 savage. Now that every one is over geared.

Single target is what matters. But that's all monk has. No utility at all. Ninja's have alot of utility like buffing party damage by 10%. That's great. Also they work well with warriors. Allowing them to just use thier strongest combo while the warrior refreshes the slashing debuff. While monk has bad synergy with drk because the int debuff don't work together.

All in all monk just brings nothing to raids besides their own dps.

MNK may have among the highest single target DPS but that about all they bring to a party aside from Mantra which does have its uses but it doesn't contribute to party DPS. NIN usually won't get dropped because of Trick Attack boosting party damage by 10%, Smokescreen to reduce Emnity on a healer/high burst DPS, and Shadewalker which transfers their emnity to the tank(NIN have offensive and defensive Utility). DRG doesn't get the boot because of Battle Litany giving party Crit. MNKs just don't bring any offensive utility to a party like the other two melee. Aside from this info, that's not to say that MNKs shouldn't be brought in, if you need to push numbers then DRG/NIN, if your DPS are all pulling their own weight then any melee comp can obviously work.

Wether you go with a monk or ninja depends entirely on how much more damage the monk does. The most a ninja will increase your raid dps by is 1.6%(and only if mechanics don't for the nin to save a trick attack for some reason), so if the monk is doing doing more than the nin but less than whatever that 1.6% is you go with the nin, and if the monk does more(typically ~120 more dps would be needed with most groups) you go with the monk. That said, at this point in the content cycle it doesn't matter which you choose.

Monk also has the strongest Self Heal skill in the game D=.

Anyways, the two melee your group should pick are the two melee that the players are most comfortable playing.

Monk aoe isn't even good. They still need a 2nd form aoe move; the fact they don't have one, as well as what aoe drg/nin have, puts mnk behind them. But also as said, aoe dps in raids is rarely much of a factor. Just odd you'd quote it as a selling point for MNK when they're the worst at it.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Monk also has the strongest Self Heal skill in the game D=.

Anyways, the two melee your group should pick are the two melee that the players are most comfortable playing.

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That's Warrior. Equilibrium has 1200 potency.

Mnk will get spot light again if they make raids where PLDs shine, and if hp checks and surviving is the difficult part instead of pumping out damage.

Dropping someone based on the class they play is utterly pointless at this point in the patch.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Monk aoe isn't even good. They still need a 2nd form aoe move; the fact they don't have one, as well as what aoe drg/nin have, puts mnk behind them.

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MNK's sutainable AoE is far greater than DRG's because of Purification and Elixir Field, though DRG's AoE over short periods of burst is greater. I don't know what on earth makes you think NIN's AoE is better. NIN's AoE is very poor and has been ever since they adjusted poisons to no longer affect their magical damage.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

MNK's sutainable AoE is far greater than DRG's because of Purification and Elixir Field, though DRG's AoE over short periods of burst is greater.

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There's no raid situation, including AS2, where you'd want to spend a long period of time AoEing on a non-mage. DRG has better oGCD AoE potential than MNK. 200pot/20sec with Gierskogul and 250/120sec with Dragonfire Dive. Compared to 220pot/30sec with Elixir Field.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

There's no raid situation, including AS2, where you'd want to spend a long period of time AoEing on a non-mage. DRG has better oGCD AoE potential than MNK. 200pot/20sec with Gierskogul and 250/120sec with Dragonfire Dive. Compared to 220pot/30sec with Elixir Field.

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Howling Fist ring a bell?

Completely forgot that exists, actually. With that, MNK edges ahead by 1.1 pot/sec/enemy.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

MNK's sutainable AoE is far greater than DRG's because of Purification and Elixir Field, though DRG's AoE over short periods of burst is greater. I don't know what on earth makes you think NIN's AoE is better. NIN's AoE is very poor and has been ever since they adjusted poisons to no longer affect their magical damage.

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Can confirm, NIN AOE makes me want to kill myself

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dropping someone based on the class they play is utterly pointless at this point in the patch.

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This!

I seen many people get replaced in their static because all they had one that one job. Now, you get people who tell them to level multiple jobs to be safe, but I took this advice myself, and it does not work for everyone.

Before Heavensward, I ended up leveling BRD, NIN, and DRG as far as DPS goes because I needed to "fit in". Unfortunately, playing as DRG in most groups, I wasn't performing well because that's the job I DIDN'T want to play.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

MNK's sutainable AoE is far greater than DRG's because of Purification and Elixir Field, though DRG's AoE over short periods of burst is greater. I don't know what on earth makes you think NIN's AoE is better. NIN's AoE is very poor and has been ever since they adjusted poisons to no longer affect their magical damage.

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Kassatsu crits on each tick with Doton.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Kassatsu crits on each tick with Doton.

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Ditto for katon, crits every target. And the steady 100 per gcd outpaces mnk's 50+0+130.

All three classes are pretty well balanced. A MNK will typically do the highest personal DPS in most fights, and they still bring Dragon Kick which was super useful in Final Coil (though not so necessary currently). A NIN will bring Trick Attack for periodic +10% party damage, and possibly a +10% buff to the tanks if there somehow isn't a WAR in the group dropping their version (but there always is). A DRG will buff any BRD or MCH in the party perpetually with their piercing debuff from Disembowel and periodically buff crit with Litany.

In the end what you need are good players who know their class. With a strong party you're pretty much set so long as you aren't fielding mass redundancy.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Ditto for katon, crits every target. And the steady 100 per gcd outpaces mnk's 50+0+130.

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Besides the fact that you should almost never be using arm of the destroyer for aoe as it takes too many enemies to be both damage and tp efficient, you have to remember when you list monk potencies that monks have 3 damage buffs going on at all times, as well as traited internal release for extra crit chance. At gl3 with fist of fire and twin snakes up, you haves 188 potency cleave every 6 seconds, a 319 potency aoe every 30 seconds(instant and stronger than Doton without relying on mob positioning) and a 246 potency aoe every 60 seconds. And all that's without mentioning that a monk could aoe more than twice as long as a ninja. I'm not sure how anyone could think it's even a fair comparison.

nin brings : trick attack (10% boost) and is used every min , and time for burst phases , Goad (TP regen) , and good dmg.

drg brings : BL (crit for every1!) , and piercing debuff for your Brd/MCH

Mnk: brings better mantra , and int debuff (covered with Drk)

since the meta is drk+war , monk isnt that usefull , if drk gets replaced with pld , and u need the int debuff...

the only job i think isnt replaceable is War that -10% dmg done is awesome, plus War brings lots of DMG as OT + Slashing debuff (for the other tank , ninja and himself) , now if Drk could keep his own -10%....but is a proc on parry and has CD...

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Kassatsu crits on each tick with Doton.

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I'm aware.

Kassatsu isn't available constantly, though, nor is Invigorate, which NIN needs to reasonably sustain heavy use of Death Blossom, so fairly often, NIN contributes far less AoE damage than the other two.

MNK, on the other hand, delivers consistently high damage thanks to having both Invigorate and Purification to alternate for TP, plus Elixir Field and Howling Fist which have lower cooldowns than Kassatsu (and they can spike their AoE damage considerably with Perfect Balance for rapid acquisition of GL3 and Rockbreaker spam).

Though DRG doesn't have Invigorate all the time, the naturally high potency of their AoE attacks (and the slower attack speed) means that they don't need as much TP for AoE, making their AoE usually more consistent than NIN's as well.

Looking at raw potencies for all three classes doesn't really paint the entire picture, either, as both MNK and DRG have several self damage buffs that factor into their AoE damage (FoF, Twin, GL1-3 for MNK; HT, BotD), while NIN only has the one (poison) that only applies to Death Blossom. MNK and DRG also have more natively powerful DPS cooldowns (MNK gets 20% more crit from IR and DRG gets 15% more raw damage from BfB) than NIN does. Aggressively played for AoE damage, MNKs and DRGs can easily outstrip a NIN in AoE in most situations.

Depends on other outside factors. Are you PLD/WAR? You keep MNK and drop NIN. DRK/WAR drop MNK, keep NIN. MCH instead of BRD? Drop the caster and pick up a third melee & so on & so on.

Or...just go with what's in the current group if you all can clear it anyway. I hate getting excluded just because I'm a PLD or WHM. That's why I rolled NIN since ROG released, and continue to be a NIN, as it gives me the sense of being a lone wolf, as I don't really have to rely on other jobs (ie DRG > BRD, BRD > BLM/SMN, WAR =/= NIN).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

*SNIP*

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By the way, I dislike your signature lol... Probably would have mine if I hadn't lost time due to work (been working 12-16 hour shifts everyday since the 24th of December). Can't wait until Jan 4th, as I'll be off a whole week and can play catch-up.

Grats, though.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Grats, though.

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Thanks. :P I had been hoping for the NIN relic to originally be Kannagi (it was my favorite legendary weapon in FFXI) and was disappointed when we didn't even get Kikoku. I was rather excited to get to work once the item names "discovered," and actually ended up finishing about 7-10 days before I had planned to because I got carried away.

Don't kick anyone based on class. Do it based on skill. No class is so op that it's worth taking over someone that is excellent. No amount of raid utility will make up for a bad player

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Monk aoe isn't even good. They still need a 2nd form aoe move; the fact they don't have one, as well as what aoe drg/nin have, puts mnk behind them. But also as said, aoe dps in raids is rarely much of a factor. Just odd you'd quote it as a selling point for MNK when they're the worst at it.

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Umm, check out fflogs on a2s. I feel like monk do ok aoe dps.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Monk aoe isn't even good. They still need a 2nd form aoe move; the fact they don't have one, as well as what aoe drg/nin have, puts mnk behind them. But also as said, aoe dps in raids is rarely much of a factor. Just odd you'd quote it as a selling point for MNK when they're the worst at it.

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http://www.geeksandcleats.com/wp-con...ce-300x256.png

Monks have very solid AOE. Just flat out better than NIN and more sustainable than DRG, DRG being more bursty.

As for the main topic - for cutting edge progression content I guess you'd still run DRG/NIN, but we aren't in that environment right now.

Both MNK and NIN are great. You won't be gimping your team taking one over the other. I main MNK, have DRG at 60 and I'm working on NIN, and in my experience all three are solid jobs that bring a lot to a group. Be it damage, utility, whatever.

It's been said countless times in this thread already, but it's fitting; take the player, not the class.

man, now i fear drg will get the shared debuff treatment in 4.0 since it seems like theyre unreplacable at the moment.
another melee with piercing debuff?

Imo the only reason MNK isn't needed in todays raid is cus we don't need PLD. If everyone needed a PLD in their group for MT, you'd bet that the 2nd tank they chose would most likely be WAR cus WAR is just OP. And if you have PLD and WAR, you might be like some teams back in Final Coil that NEEDED Dragon Kick debuff to even live through the mechanics.

Monk has it's utility. It has Manta and a few nifty surviving abilities; Second Wind, Bloodbath, Featherfoot and you can even toss in Forsight but most use fracture. And while the need to Dragonkick is lessened cus of DRK, that won't be the case if you go PLD/WAR like some statics, including the one I'm in.

Monk used to be the best pre-3.0, hell some teams even went double monk. Now it's DRG and NIN's time to shine and nothings wrong with that. But you won't see me changing my job just cus it will be a small boost in raid dps cus that's not why me and my friends raid. I enjoy Monk and I'll keep enjoying it with my friends.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

man, now i fear drg will get the shared debuff treatment in 4.0 since it seems like theyre unreplacable at the moment.
another melee with piercing debuff?

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Yeah Dragon Kick is literally our level 50 skill. To see that become useless from another class, kinda depressing and makes you think what other jobs could lose in a similar situation. Though I can honestly see why DRK would have such a skill. It just annoys me that DRK doesn't also give me my blunt resistance down.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

Yeah Dragon Kick is literally our level 50 skill. To see that become useless from another class, kinda depressing and makes you think what other jobs could lose in a similar situation. Though I can honestly see why DRK would have such a skill. It just annoys me that DRK doesn't also give me my blunt resistance down.

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What annoys me is that no one else does blunt damage at all, which means there's no chance for party synergy.

...Well, unless healers smacking things with staffs and books count. Don't know if they do.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

What annoys me is that no one else does blunt damage at all, which means there's no chance for party synergy.

...Well, unless healers smacking things with staffs and books count. Don't know if they do.

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Funnily enough, I'm almost certain that books and staffs do count as blunt damage lol. Not sure how helpful this is as a boost to monk raid synergy though ;)

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Originally Posted by Nirurin

Funnily enough, I'm almost certain that books and staffs do count as blunt damage lol. Not sure how helpful this is as a boost to monk raid synergy though ;)

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It's an extra 5 per bookholder assuming they booksmash all the time.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

There's no raid situation, including AS2, where you'd want to spend a long period of time AoEing on a non-mage. DRG has better oGCD AoE potential than MNK. 200pot/20sec with Gierskogul and 250/120sec with Dragonfire Dive. Compared to 220pot/30sec with Elixir Field.

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Alright. It's not very fair to compare MNK to other classes when you don't add in the damage buffs MNK gets.

Elixir field is 330 buffed
Howling Fist is 255 buffed

Idk about DRG

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

What annoys me is that no one else does blunt damage at all, which means there's no chance for party synergy.

...Well, unless healers smacking things with staffs and books count. Don't know if they do.

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I never actually thought of book smacking. Uhm, lol.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

Alright. It's not very fair to compare MNK to other classes when you don't add in the damage buffs MNK gets.

Elixir field is 330 buffed
Howling Fist is 255 buffed

Idk about DRG

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DRG gets +15% from HT making it

230 for Geirskogul
and 287.5 for Dragonfire Dive.

This is however not considering that you cant built up BotD for geirskogul unless you do a single target rotation, so its kinda moot, leaving only Dragonfire Dive which due to its long CD doesnt account for much.
This makes DRG actually the worst melee when it comes to off GCD AOE options by far (even behind NIN due to Doton/Katon).This is ok however since its on GCD options (doomspike) are so good.