PLD's and Threat control...

Is a joke like really especially the PLD's that wear fending gear. As soon as I enter a duty now with a pld wearing 2 pieces + fending I insta leave duty cause I don't feel like tanking on my Monk.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...Saitama_OK.jpg

PLD generating less enmity than WAR/DRK isn't anything new, and there's not much to be done about it other than waiting for SE to fix it. So if you don't want to monk-tank, either learn to throttle back your hate or prepare to eat a lot of 30 minute penalties.

I wouldn't say it's quite as dramatic or extreme as the OP's post (and if you're really having that much of an issue with Pld enmity as a Dps then the problem is probably with the player, not the job), but it is a persistent problem that would benefit from serious adjustments.

Personally, I don't typically have an issue holding threat (boss or mob) on Pld in typical dungeon runs unless I'm not paying attention or the Dps out-gear me by a fairly dramatic margin. However, it is a noticeable issue in any Raid that has 2 tanks. In A2, for example, War's Overpower FAR exceeds a Pld's Flash/CoS combo, so tanking the Mob's becomes an "All or Nothing" deal in which either the War scales back their Hate and the Pld get's it all, or the War runs their AoE rotation and the Pld frantically tries to keep up while losing hate on everything. Even if the tanks start off by tanking separate mobs, enmity is fragile for the Pld. In any instance in which Pld's have to compete for, split, or share enmity with another tank (even if that tank is in the OT position), the Pld is at a disadvantage.

That being said, they should almost never be losing hate to a Dps unless they are out-geared, and if that's the case then the problem typically lies with a fault in the players skill. Either the Pld doesn't know how to rotate their enmity combo's well enough, or the Dps doesn't know how to properly adjust themselves to match a Pld's hate kit (such as not attacking a Pld's off-targets, or working independently from the other Dps... etc).

I see a joke here, and it's not your PLDs.

^
/TenChars

Sorry but if a tank of any kind mass pulls then you can bet we the dps will aoe all and even the healer will too and you fail to hold the hate you pulled then you need to learn to tank and pull less or maybe play another class and a pld with fending stats that cant hold what they pull has no place in any group. either go slaying or pentamelds or pick another tank class to main.

And no if you mass pull why should I be a scrub and single target as that beats the entire purpose off mass pulling and speed running?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Sorry but if a tank of any kind mass pulls then you can bet we the dps will aoe all and even the healer will too and you fail to hold the hate you pulled then you need to learn to tank and pull less or maybe play another class and a pld with fending stats that cant hold what they pull has no place in any group. either go slaying or pentamelds or pick another tank class to main.

And no if you mass pull why should I be a scrub and single target as that beats the entire purpose off mass pulling and speed running?

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And this is why people view the community as toxic.

Instead of acting holier than thou, why not actually try to help out struggling tanks? God forbid you help make the player base more competent...

oh I have a pld too even though its only il 196 full str no issues even if only 15k hp compared to the 18k+ fending plds and I tank in SWO mostly too and these fending tanks SHO and they still fail to hold hate. Unlike me 2-3 flashes and scorning and you pre much wont ever lose that hate in good str gear.

I had a good laugh, so mission accomplished I guess?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

oh I have a pld too even though its only il 196 full str no issues even if only 15k hp compared to the 18k+ fending plds and I tank in SWO mostly too and these fending tanks SHO and they still fail to hold hate. Unlike me 2-3 flashes and scorning and you pre much wont ever lose that hate in good str gear.

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Good for you.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

oh I have a pld too even though its only il 196 full str no issues even if only 15k hp compared to the 18k+ fending plds and I tank in SWO mostly too and these fending tanks SHO and they still fail to hold hate. Unlike me 2-3 flashes and scorning and you pre much wont ever lose that hate in good str gear.

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Since when does Str increase the enmity Flash creates?

In a mass pull of 8+ Mobs you're going to be Flash spamming anyway, Fending or Slaying its not going to matter.

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Originally Posted by Valmar

Since when does Str increase the enmity Flash creates?

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Flash scales on attack, so that much of the OP's broadly illegible ramble is true. By the same token, weapon damage and determination will help it generate more enmity as well (although I'm fairly sure it can't crit, so that one's no good).

The problem with the truly amazing Amber "I'm a winner, vote Trump" Scarlet's complaint is that a Vit Paladin can hold hate anyways - hate mechanics in this game aren't super complicated or involved. The vit paladin just has to target the same mob as the good dd (using "good" loosely in relation to the OP here) with RoH spam after flashing the aoe junk, instead of focusing on using goring blade and/or RA to up their own DPS. If the paladin just worries about hate, they should have no serious issues beyond the occasional poorly done pull (in which case you can toss cover on the DD, and it's a non-issue).

At any rate: this thread is clearly a troll, the work of a twelve year old child, or both. It shouldn't have got to two pages.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Is a joke like really especially the PLD's that wear fending gear. As soon as I enter a duty now with a pld wearing 2 pieces + fending I insta leave duty cause I don't feel like tanking on my Monk.

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As Ashkendor suggested, either throttle your output to allow aggro to be built (a fairly fundamental skill IMHO) or eat the penalty.

Honestly, If you are a skilled DPS player then throttling your damage output for a couple of turns should not be any trouble for you. If you can't be bothered to participate in content with players because you can't be bothered to moderate your play appropriately, then you deserve every penalty you get.

Should really be blaming the devs for this, not the players. I mean, the gear says Fending. Only tank classes can "need" on it. It's not exactly obvious that tanks are able to or capable of wearing strength accessories to increase their threat and dps. Now if they know this and still refuse to take it into consideration, then that's entirely different. But that's a big assumption to make for a random DF encounter.

It's not the gear, it's the player.

The co-tank (PLD) in my static holds threat just fine. In fact, he can peel it off me (WAR) esp when I'm stance dancing. He may not have high dps but his threat generation is right where we need it.

Texas doesn't have nearly as much bull droppings as this thread.

As another poster previously stated, unless a Paladin is outgeared (particularly in terms of weaponry) significantly that Paladin will not generally have much trouble establishing and regaining enmity in proper tank gear (provided DPS aren't actively trying to sabotage said PLD by intentionally ripping hate from enemies not currently being fought by the PLD).

An AoE damage ability like War Drum (mentioned in a thread some days ago), which sounds like a PLD answer to Overpower & Unleash, would do wonders in squashing this debate altogether.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

It's not the gear, it's the player.

The co-tank (PLD) in my static holds threat just fine. In fact, he can peel it off me (WAR) esp when I'm stance dancing. He may not have high dps but his threat generation is right where we need it.

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PLD off tank single target DPS isn't all that weak; Its the aoe threat while main tanking that falls short of what the other two tanks can do.

It's like, PLD can hold AOE hate but the cushion isn't quite as large as when the other two tanks have it.

Listen here...monk...I monk main...and I pull hate frequently as well. Instead of being a dick and not helping the tanks learn to tank...like tell them hey..i recommend using shield oath and flashing more blah blah blah...also..i recommend when you pull mobs to be a good monk and swap to fists of earth...maybe pop feather foot, keen flurry...get ready to pop second wind...maybe a good idea...you know...to be a good monk and all...i bet you probably don't even have half those skills on your bar...or use them during raids...maybe mantra to help healer keep some heals on you too? Maybe if its a constant issue save your stuns for actual needs instead of just using it in a rotation...just some thoughts I would like to hand down from one monk to another to help you be a better player / person.

P.S. Get good pal.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...Saitama_OK.jpg

PLD generating less enmity than WAR/DRK isn't anything new, and there's not much to be done about it other than waiting for SE to fix it. So if you don't want to monk-tank, either learn to throttle back your hate or prepare to eat a lot of 30 minute penalties.

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...That's like asking a BLM to use ARR rotation instead of Fire IV.. I find telling a DPS that to be a little unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

PLD off tank single target DPS isn't all that weak; Its the aoe threat while main tanking that falls short of what the other two tanks can do.

It's like, PLD can hold AOE hate but the cushion isn't quite as large as when the other two tanks have it.

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Yeah, Flash is needing a 3rd buff.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

...That's like asking a BLM to use ARR rotation instead of Fire IV.. I find telling a DPS that to be a little unreasonable.

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It's no more unreasonable than automatically leaving upon seeing the tank is a PLD wearing 2 fending pieces, lol.

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Yeah, Flash is needing a 3rd buff.

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Not gonna argue with that. Savage/RoH need a boost too.

PLD tank...you go str build some healers will hate you, you go vit build some dps will hate you...

Personally though, I do use 1-2 piece of fending gear even if I'm str build cause then at least I have more life than the dps.

What a coincidence, the one dps that has no aggro dump ability has stumbled onto the tank forums to tell us how to do our jobs because he failed to have basic party/raid awareness.

Paladins lack one major tool that both DRK and WAR get (unfair?) and that is an AoE that does damage.

Warrior gets Overpower and Dark Knight gets Unleash. Paladin just gets Flash, which doesn't nearly generate as much hate in succession versus the others. Insult to injury, both the other tank jobs can cross class Flash yet Paladin can't cross class Overpower or Unleash.

Personally I have no problem keeping hate as a Paladin right now with strength or fending accessories, but there is absolutely no room for error. Hitting the wrong target even for a moment will break hate off. WAR and DRK get much more room for error because of how stupid high their aggro generation is with their AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Rhode

Paladins lack one major tool that both DRK and WAR get (unfair?) and that is an AoE that does damage.

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While CoS is on a long-ish CD, it does do damage with added enmity. Combined with two or three flashes, I haven't had any problems with SMNs going full "destroy the tank" burn mode on big trash pulls.

Also, Ashkendor, Savage can't really get buffed in enmity multiplier, since it's part of the RA combo. PLD's saving grace in going DPSadin MT is that Savage has added enmity; if the RA combo had even more enmity on it, it would be the same rough situation that PLD/WAR had in 2.55 where PLDs doing their damage rotation just rip right off the other tank with no real effort.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

Also, Ashkendor, Savage can't really get buffed in enmity multiplier, since it's part of the RA combo. PLD's saving grace in going DPSadin MT is that Savage has added enmity; if the RA combo had even more enmity on it, it would be the same rough situation that PLD/WAR had in 2.55 where PLDs doing their damage rotation just rip right off the other tank with no real effort.

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Hmm you may be right there. Warriors use BB in their normal rotation even if they're DPS'ing it up so that shouldn't be a problem, but DRK MT's might have difficulty as they seem to avoid Power Slash like the plague for the same reasons we avoid RoH.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Hmm you may be right there. Warriors use BB in their normal rotation even if they're DPS'ing it up so that shouldn't be a problem, but DRK MT's might have difficulty as they seem to avoid Power Slash like the plague for the same reasons we avoid RoH.

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Yeah, when I was writing that post I was thinking about the stealth nerf to DRK that a buffed Savage would bring. Technically, PS and Delirium are a wash being only 10 potency difference, so it's really only during burst phases where a DRK would be spamming DASE that they would be actively ignoring PS.
Of course, during those phases, a RA PLD is pooping out four RA combos with four Savages and two COS while under FOF, so RIP that DRK's threat.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

Yeah, when I was writing that post I was thinking about the stealth nerf to DRK that a buffed Savage would bring. Technically, PS and Delirium are a wash being only 10 potency difference, so it's really only during burst phases where a DRK would be spamming DASE that they would be actively ignoring PS.
Of course, during those phases, a RA PLD is pooping out four RA combos with four Savages and two COS while under FOF, so RIP that DRK's threat.

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The reason you don't use Power Slash is because you're sacrificing a Siphon to do it. Hardly a wash, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Immut

The reason you don't use Power Slash is because you're sacrificing a Siphon to do it. Hardly a wash, I'd say.

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That's what Blood Price is for at the beginning of a pull. Siphon Strike won't be necessary before that.

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Originally Posted by Rhode

Paladins lack one major tool that both DRK and WAR get (unfair?) and that is an AoE that does damage.

Warrior gets Overpower and Dark Knight gets Unleash. Paladin just gets Flash, which doesn't nearly generate as much hate in succession versus the others. Insult to injury, both the other tank jobs can cross class Flash yet Paladin can't cross class Overpower or Unleash.

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Flash generates roughly equal base enmity to Overpowered and Unleashed. The problems are that it does not benefit from the Paladin's damage buff (unlike Overpower and Unleash that benefit from Maim/Berserk/Unchained and Darkside respectively) and that the Paladin has the lowest net enmity multiplier while in tank stance. If FoF increased the enmity generated by Flash we wouldn't be seeing an AoE enmity problem (the AoE damage gap would still exist).

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Is a joke like really especially the PLD's that wear fending gear. As soon as I enter a duty now with a pld wearing 2 pieces + fending I insta leave duty cause I don't feel like tanking on my Monk.

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If this is the PLD's rotation:

http://www.ffxivrotations.com/131

...then you have nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

Is a joke like really especially the PLD's that wear fending gear. As soon as I enter a duty now with a pld wearing 2 pieces + fending I insta leave duty cause I don't feel like tanking on my Monk.

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Pulled aggro on Bard from PLD, DRK and yes even WAR. So please stop with it. A good tank will be able to hold threat. Those that can't well you know they just aren't good.

In the end it will be just like...
"PLD Does tons of damages we wont change a thing from him"

So lets just face it... PLD will be the most tanky (in terms of Physical Damage) and the one that will have lesser damage and aggro until they think a "secondary parry" called shield be there...

[edit] in the end of the day, if the group's DPS is good to clear the content,OK to have a PLD on the party... if not... well... )

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

As soon as I enter a duty now with a pld wearing 2 pieces + fending I insta leave duty cause I don't feel like tanking on my Monk.

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Well, be prepared to leave a lot. I mean, pretty sure tanks are locked to left side Fending, so every tank is gonna have at least 6 pieces of Fending gear.
/sarcasm

I've actually had toxic str geared WARs in DF that can't hold hate these days, any PLDs I've come across are usually really good.

A tip is if you're in a dungeon that doesn't sync your gear and the tank is loosing agro check their gear, if you are around 10 ilvls above then they will be having a hard time keeping stuff off you. You should learn to use quelling or calm down in the aoe spam and don't just keep smacking a monster if you see you're about to take agro. Maybe kindly offer advice (key word being KINDLY) and help newer tanks.

Remember just because there's no bonus at the start doesn't mean the tank has tanked this dungeon before, they might of been dps or a healer.

I don't mind tanks gear or stance as long as they use their CDs accordingly and hold hate.
I am healer but I often run with friends that are sorta really high DPS and a tank using CDs well and holds aggro against em will get my commi ALWAYS who cares about stupid "moar deeps" meta if they work and we complete without any ping pong games?

derp derp derp nvm this post cba to retype it :o

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

You should learn to use quelling or calm down in the aoe spam and don't just keep smacking a monster if you see you're about to take agro.

Remember just because there's no bonus at the start doesn't mean the tank has tanked this dungeon before, they might of been dps or a healer.

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OP plays MNK apparently, which has no dump/reduction skill like DRG/BRD/WHM, so he has no real way to stop creeping up on a tank without taking his hands off the keyboard while the tank recovers.

Also, playing through a dungeon as DPS or healer should improve your tank game when you finally run it as tank, because you know where the breakpoints for pulls are, how the boss mechanics work, and how many groups are between breakpoints. You have no real excuse for being bad at tank in a dungeon once you've run it a few times.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

OP plays MNK apparently, which has no dump/reduction skill like DRG/BRD/WHM, so he has no real way to stop creeping up on a tank without taking his hands off the keyboard while the tank recovers.

Also, playing through a dungeon as DPS or healer should improve your tank game when you finally run it as tank, because you know where the breakpoints for pulls are, how the boss mechanics work, and how many groups are between breakpoints. You have no real excuse for being bad at tank in a dungeon once you've run it a few times.

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Anxiety about tanking correctly can impact your performance, the tank also may do pulls correctly but positioning may be messy. I'm not saying it's an excuse but the first time I tanked in the HW dungeons I was paranoid about messing up which made me do minor stumbles but after a couple of runs I'm confident in each dungeon. Some people adapt their own way at tanking different areas from you, let them figure it out.

Sounds to me like the OP doesn't understand the concept of the hate ceiling that frankly is one of the first things any good DPS learns about an MMO. A good DPS doesn't go balls to the wall every single time they open fire, they work within the limit set by the tank. Hate is a group effort after all, not just for the tank to worry about. If you're pulling hate then wind it in a bit and stop expecting perfection from everyone all the time.
As a BLM main I know this only too well, some tanks can't take my 100% AoE rotation and that can be for many reason, so I wind it in a bit. Others out gear me and then it's fun times but that isn't always the case, if I out gear the tank there isn't always much they can do so I change my approach to try and work with what they've got. Sure, this slows runs down sometimes but it's still a lot faster than a 30 minute penalty followed by another queue.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Sounds to me like the OP doesn't understand the concept of the hate ceiling that frankly is one of the first things any good DPS learns about an MMO.

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The logic needs to be extended to tanks, as well. Case in point, joined a duty in progress on bard last night, it was halfway through halatali normal. I don't know why the other dps left, but it could've had something to do with the drk who didn't know that you can use unleash more than once. For real I have no idea what they were doing, except sometimes I'd just seem them standing there not attacking at all. Needless to say, I pulled every mob off him, not that I was particularly trying to either.

It's one thing to say, well they are trying so I'll try too, it's another thing entirely if the tank just stands there doing nothing lol. I'm not gonna wait an hour for them to lolly gag around when nothing in the dungeon is going to instagib me lol. Bard tank ftw :P