The Anima grind is not the problem.

Its the reward. Im a casual player who has the time to spend on grinding a relic weapon. However, after looking at the stats on my NIN weapon, I was heartbroken. I wasted my zeta for a piece of gear that is worse than the standard esoteric weapon stat-wise? If I am going to do a grind such as this, make the reward something worth getting. Ninja's got the worse of this in the new Anima weapons, but other classes were also shafted. Its simply not worth doing the quest for a glamour when I could throw my self at AS4 for the next 2 months and probably come out with a better weapon.

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Originally Posted by SkyzTheLimit

I wasted my zeta for a piece of gear that is worse than the standard esoteric weapon stat-wise?

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It's actually not. It is very slightly better due to how poor Skill Speed is for NIN, at least going by Dervy's last updated stat weights. Since Kannagi has Determination as the "high" stat and Skill Speed as the "low" one, whereas Yukimitsu has Crit Rate low and Skill Speed high, it very slightly edges it out in Effective DEX.

Kannagi is not, however, better than the Thordan EX daggers despite the higher item level.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

It's actually not. It is very slightly better due to how poor Skill Speed is for NIN, at least going by Dervy's last updated stat weights. Since Kannagi has Determination as the "high" stat and Skill Speed as the "low" one, whereas Yukimitsu has Crit Rate low and Skill Speed high, it very slightly edges it out in Effective DEX.

Kannagi is not, however, better than the Thordan EX daggers despite the higher item level.

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I see your point with Yukimitsu, and you basically summed up my frustration in the last sentence. Thordan EX is better than Kannagi, so why waste my time grinding for it? I may not raid, but i could handle Thordan EX, the only reason I held off was BECAUSE of the animas.

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Originally Posted by SkyzTheLimit

I see your point with Yukimitsu, and you basically summed up my frustration in the last sentence. Thordan EX is better than Kannagi, so why waste my time grinding for it? I may not raid, but i could handle Thordan EX, the only reason I held off was BECAUSE of the animas.

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But that's Thordan EX.

When people say relics are designed for casual players, they mean literally CASUAL. As in anyone. Even the people who can't beat Thordan. Thordan is equivalent to roughly A1S, which many would consider "midcore", not casual.

Also, to add to previous points, if they made it better than everything else, (btw we haven't seen final results yet, this is the end for this part of the relic) raiders would complain about what's the point of doing raids/thordan if everyone has access to the best weapon just being casual? That's what everyone was complaining about Diadem. Diadem had the best gear and people were complaining that casuals had access to it and raiders had to "work" for theirs.

It's a hard balance to maintain to keep everyone happy in terms of bis and accessibility to all players casual and HC. I think it's best it's like this so for those who can't beat the hard content or group content there's an option for people to do. it might not be "the best" but better than nothing.

Secondary stats are not very strong in HW and much weaker then they were in ARR. If you do not have a 210 weapon the relic will be better then everything lower due to weapon damage and main stat being king. Having different secondary stats if a very very minor increase or loss.

The 210 weapon is still an upgrade over 200 or 205. If doing the relic doesn't float your boat then wait till 3.17 or whatever the next mini patch is where when they will add the eso weapon upgrade item to void ark / hunts.

My problem is solely the crafting part. Also, yes the relics are, to say the least, boring. I'm completely let down on the WHM cane design (looks like a broken egg with a gem inside) and the stats are worse (I'll get crit or SS anytime over Piety, I don't need no piety, seriously)

Thordan weapon is a dead end, but relic will grow throughout the patches. Stat customization may come back in a future update, in which case you'll be prepared for min/maxing.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Secondary stats are not very strong in HW and much weaker then they were in ARR. If you do not have a 210 weapon the relic will be better then everything lower due to weapon damage and main stat being king. Having different secondary stats if a very very minor increase or loss.

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This is just parroting phrases you've heard elsewhere.
The secondary stats are worth slightly less now than they did at level 50, however they still have significant weight, especially when there are in excess of a hundred of them.
The Thordan weapon is mathematically better than the i210 relic, and due to the huge difference in skill speed makes even more desireable outside of its damage weight.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Secondary stats are not very strong in HW and much weaker then they were in ARR. If you do not have a 210 weapon the relic will be better then everything lower due to weapon damage and main stat being king. Having different secondary stats if a very very minor increase or loss.

The 210 weapon is still an upgrade over 200 or 205. If doing the relic doesn't float your boat then wait till 3.17 or whatever the next mini patch is where when they will add the eso weapon upgrade item to void ark / hunts.

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I said earlier, Im not a raider. I probably wont feel any direct effects of getting one 210 over another. But if thats the case, Its like im a 5 year old who was given some keys to play with to hold my attention, while the big kids get actual toys. The difference may be minor, but now Im working towards a number, not a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Secondary stats are not very strong in HW and much weaker then they were in ARR. If you do not have a 210 weapon the relic will be better then everything lower due to weapon damage and main stat being king. Having different secondary stats if a very very minor increase or loss.

The 210 weapon is still an upgrade over 200 or 205.

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Not completely true. The 205 gun/bow are the same physical damage as 210 gun/bow. Luckily for bards, the relic bow is really good with crit/det since the other two 210 weapons weren't crit/det. The gun, however... Heavensfire is 93 crit/68 det, but the Armageddon is 97 det/71 skill speed. So unless skill speed is actually better for machinist than other jobs despite rapid fire on 3 shots every 90 seconds and all of the ogcd skills that aren't affected by skill speed at all, it's unlikely that the +4 dex on Armageddon will make up for the better secondary stats on Heavensfire. At best they'd be roughly the same and probably not worth the grind and gil unless you really like the glamour.

We'll be able to upgrade the weapon further later, but I'd rather just do a different weapon now and work on this part of the gun when the difficulty is eased with a future patch. :(

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Not completely true. The 205 gun/bow are the same physical damage as 210 gun/bow. Luckily for bards, the relic bow is really good with crit/det since the other two 210 weapons weren't crit/det. :(

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That is just a weird case of them having the same damage because gun/bows always have lower damage so they couldn't spread out the numbers as much at the top end. But for the other weapons having weapon damage is still better then optimum secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by SkyzTheLimit

I said earlier, Im not a raider. I probably wont feel any direct effects of getting one 210 over another. But if thats the case, Its like im a 5 year old who was given some keys to play with to hold my attention, while the big kids get actual toys. The difference may be minor, but now Im working towards a number, not a weapon.

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If you are not a raider you won't fell the effects that much at all at getting a better weapon due to the non raid content not requiring high levels of gear. The relics for the most part are for the hard core player base who have a lot of time to play and do a huge grind. I would suggest just waiting till they put in eso upgrade items in hunts/void ark.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If you are not a raider you won't fell the effects that much at all at getting a better weapon due to the non raid content not requiring high levels of gear. The relics for the most part are for the hard core player base who have a lot of time to play and do a huge grind. I would suggest just waiting till they put in eso upgrade items in hunts/void ark.

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Relics are supposed to be casual friendly. The grind actually is, the crafting isn't.

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Originally Posted by SkyzTheLimit

I said earlier, Im not a raider. I probably wont feel any direct effects of getting one 210 over another. But if thats the case, Its like im a 5 year old who was given some keys to play with to hold my attention, while the big kids get actual toys. The difference may be minor, but now Im working towards a number, not a weapon.

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It's going to affect tanks more :x.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

This is just parroting phrases you've heard elsewhere.
The secondary stats are worth slightly less now than they did at level 50, however they still have significant weight, especially when there are in excess of a hundred of them.
The Thordan weapon is mathematically better than the i210 relic, and due to the huge difference in skill speed makes even more desireable outside of its damage weight.

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Mathematically, the relic is superior to Thordan EX, just not as much as an improvement for Ninja's as some other jobs.

Ninja
WD: 10.775
DEX: 1.000
DET: 0.141
CRT: 0.166
SS: 0.074

Thordan EX = 937.401
WD: 10.775 x 75 = 808.12
DEX: 1.000 x 105 = 105
DET: 0.141 x 93 = 13.113
CRT: 0.166 x 68 = 11.288
SS: 0.074 x 0 = 0

Relic = 946.121
WD: 10.775 x 76 = 818.19
DEX: 1.000 x 109 = 109
DET: 0.141 x 97 = 13.677
CRT: 0.166 x 0 = 0
SS: 0.074 x 71 = 5.254

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Not completely true. The 205 gun/bow are the same physical damage as 210 gun/bow. Luckily for bards, the relic bow is really good with crit/det since the other two 210 weapons weren't crit/det. The gun, however... Heavensfire is 93 crit/68 det, but the Armageddon is 97 det/71 skill speed. So unless skill speed is actually better for machinist than other jobs despite rapid fire on 3 shots every 90 seconds and all of the ogcd skills that aren't affected by skill speed at all, it's unlikely that the +4 dex on Armageddon will make up for the better secondary stats on Heavensfire. At best they'd be roughly the same and probably not worth the grind and gil unless you really like the glamour.

We'll be able to upgrade the weapon further later, but I'd rather just do a different weapon now and work on this part of the gun when the difficulty is eased with a future patch. :(

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Generally speaking, stat weights range from 0.07 to 1.17 and are often much closer. Let's assume this is the case for Machinist and say 0.07 = sks, 0.17 crit and 0.14 = det (throwing out numbers for sake of argument, as I do not have MCH stat weights). These stat weights are referencing the main stat as 1.0.

Heavensfire = 93*0.17 CRIT and 68*0.14 DET = 15.81 + 9.52 ~25
Armageddon = 97*0.14 DET and 71*0.07 SKS = 13.58 + 5.9 ~20

So Heavensfire is roughly equivalent of 5 dex better and Armageddon has +4 dex. So in the absolute most extreme scenario, Heavensfire provides 1 dex equivalent more.

For reference, you can see the NIN stat weights above. SMN Stat weights are more simialr to 0.145 high for CRIT and 0.115 low for SPS

EDIT: A good rule of thumb is that (roughly) weapon damage = 10x main = 10x secondary, or weapon damage = 100x secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

So Heavensfire is roughly equivalent of 5 dex better and Armageddon has +4 dex. So in the absolute most extreme scenario, Heavensfire provides 1 dex equivalent more.

For reference, you can see the NIN stat weights above. SMN Stat weights are more simialr to 0.145 high for CRIT and 0.115 low for SPS

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Are you disagreeing with me then? Can't really tell. Even if machinist's skill speed was closer in weight to dragoon or monk, Armageddon would only pull ahead by about 2 dex (assuming your crit weight example, which is likely close). That's less than difference between some races. Anyone who would find value in that difference at such a high price and grind point would probably already have the superior Gordian Musketoon anyway. I'm not touching it for now unless someone actually comes up with some real stat weights for machinist and shows that it's worth the difference.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Ninja
WD: 10.775
DEX: 1.000
DET: 0.141
CRT: 0.166
SS: 0.074

Thordan EX = 937.401
WD: 10.775 x 75 = 808.12
DEX: 1.000 x 105 = 105
DET: 0.141 x 93 = 13.113
CRT: 0.166 x 68 = 11.288
SS: 0.074 x 0 = 0

Relic = 946.121
WD: 10.775 x 76 = 818.19
DEX: 1.000 x 109 = 109
DET: 0.141 x 97 = 13.677
CRT: 0.166 x 0 = 0
SS: 0.074 x 71 = 5.254

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Thanks, I didn't actually crunch the math myself when I said that, I was repeating someone else from the DPS forums I think. Looks like the 1 WD and the extra DEX is enough to make up for the lackluster secondaries.

So yes, it's still the best option for any NIN that doesn't raid, even if they're capable of clearing Thordan in terms of the raw numbers.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Are you disagreeing with me then? Can't really tell. Even if machinist's skill speed was closer in weight to dragoon or monk, Armageddon would only pull ahead by about 2 dex (assuming your crit weight example, which is likely close). That's less than difference between some races. Anyone who would find value in that difference at such a high price and grind point would probably already have the superior Gordian Musketoon anyway. I'm not touching it for now unless someone actually comes up with some real stat weights for machinist and shows that it's worth the difference.

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I wasn't really disagreeing or agreeing with anyone. I just wanted to clarify the numbers a little bit. I would say in most scenarios, the difference between Thordan EX and Relic is not that huge.

One thing to keep in mind is that this may work similar to ARR's relic, in that down the line we'll get to customize the weapon with the stats we want. Having this completed may help you get a headstart. It kinda depends if you have much to do right now or not.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I wasn't really disagreeing or agreeing with anyone. I just wanted to clarify the numbers a little bit. I would say in most scenarios, the difference between Thordan EX and Relic is not that huge.

One thing to keep in mind is that this may work similar to ARR's relic, in that down the line we'll get to customize the weapon with the stats we want. Having this completed may help you get a headstart. It kinda depends if you have much to do right now or not.

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Yeah, that's why I'm waiting for them to ease the difficulty on the quest first and working on another weapon for now. MCH is my main squeeze, but I dabble in other things that would get more benefit from having the weapon than a possibly immeasurable difference at best. Guess it would help if I liked it from a glamour standpoint...

Relic wont be really worth it until after 3.2 and it gets better steps. Perhaps they have something for the relic because 3.2 is materia melding on high lvl gear. And even then I think other weapons will be better than the relic. Hopefully they have some new content to go in the Diadem other than just hunts.

KAURIE!!!!! <3

On topic, I've been saying this since yesterday (more on reddit than here). The grind sucks, but best sword +1 quests have always been stupid and grindy and long. For all video games ever. The problem is the weapons right now aren't even BiS for most classes (I'm a SCH and those stats are seeeexy, but the poor dps classes...). I think the point is that they will be BiS by a good bit a couple patches down the line and this is just the initial investment toward being ahead 10 months from now. At least, that's how I would have designed it. Someone who grinds for six-eight weeks to get the i210 is going to stay subbed if it's going to be good one day because damnit I wanna use this thing I grinded so hard for!

That said, some verbal confirmation that this is the case would do a lot to assuage the tension. And if I was Yoshi, as a sign of good faith, I would hotfix some of the really borderline classes' secondaries, like MCH, NIN and DRG. THAT would be good receptivity and I think lots of people would be at least not as pissy as they are right now...

He prolly won't take my recommendation, but that's just what I would do.

it ends at 210 now but eventually will go higher and im assuming in 3.2 we will be able to alter the stats