BUG or settings? Own DoT's sometimes disappears...

This issue has been around for as long as I can remember.

Sometimes the DoT's that I apply just disappears. The DoT icon itself disappears, but I do not know if the DoT is still active or not as this only happens during dungeons (very rarely), raids (sometimes), alliance raids (pretty much all the time). Doesn't happen when testing on dummies though.

This can get very frustrating to deal, for example while playing as BRD, you cannot see your DoT's so you may miss Iron Jaws, sometimes even if I refresh DoT's while I know they are still active (icon missing), the icons will still remain invisible.
This can get very odd while playing MNK too, or pretty much any other class.

I don't know if this is just me, don't really see talking about this. Maybe there is a option to turn off DoT's other than yourself?

This happens to me on monsters where several people are fighting such as S ranks or CT,ST,WoD, or VA. The more other people place dots on the monster, the less of my own dots I can see unless I refresh the dot. This happens regardless if I have it set to show only my dots or not!

If there is a way to fix it, I'd love to hear it because its insanely frustrating on ninja, bard and SMN not knowing how long is left on my dots

I think its because mobs only a have a set amount of dot slots on them, so if alot of ppl are dotting it, other ppl's dots can dissapear, esp if its a certain type of dot that can only have 1 of them on said mob. Like for example, nin & war have a dot that increases dmg taken to mob by 10%. Only one of them is allowed at a time. So one of the two will dissapear. Hence why the more ppl u have, the more often this will occur. It's the only thing i can think of.

That said, I have the problem too and it would be nice if SE can adress this in some way, even if its just a msg saying ur dot has dropped off, so u know what ur dealing with.

I think it has something to do with how many debuffs and DoTs can be on a boss at the same time.
Also some skills with the same effect overwrites the old ones.
like NINs and WARs slashing debuff.

There's a limit on the number of active icons it'll show. Unfortunately they never implemented anything to prioritize your own debuffs, only move ones that are visible to the front of the stack. My guess is that the server only sends back the first 40 entries or whatever the limit was, without doing any kind of filtering on its side to determine which are more useful for you. And this is probably unrelated, but another funky thing is that sometimes when you use an ability(especially if you're riding the GCD really closely) your client updates showing it, but it turns out the command never really activated(I suspect it's one part lag and one part the command getting there a bit too early while the cooldown period is still in effect). In the event it was something persistent like a DoT, the icon will disappear the next time the server sends state data to your client.

The question really is:
are these "overflow" additional effects (DoTs or debuffs) still active when not shown because of the apparent "maximum" quantity being attained, and simply not shown, or are they deactivated?

If they're all still active, then hurrah!
However, a minor solution for you, if you wish to not know what detriments other players are applying to a boss: in your character settings, there's an option to show target detriments only afflicted by you. Give it a whirl, and see if your DoTs are still falling off.

Mobs can have a maximum of 60 icons attached to them, that's buffs & debuff combined (anything that creates a status icon). At any one time only 30 of these can be displayed. The other 30 will do damage or inflict a status but won't be shown. However, it's incredibly easy to reach that 60 limit depending on the team makeup. It's harder with 8 people, obviously, but once you hit 16 it's not difficult at all.

As others have said, it's a debuff limit on mobs. Once you get near that limit, skills will occasionally not show up at all even if you have it set to show only your own. What's more is that while they'll be active and do damage even when not showing up for you, it is my understanding that they can get to the point where they simply won't activate on the enemy at all if they reach the hard limit, doing no damage or debuffs. This includes any skill that activates on enemy that doesn't just do instant damage. Some, (but not all), skills that it's notably annoying that this can affect are Virus, Eye for an Eye, Trick Attack, and the one that is the most annoying for me in particular, Wildfire.....

For those of you who don't play MCH, Wildfire is by far our highest DPS skill if used properly, (dealing 1/5 of the damage of our 15s burst rotation on it's own), while being tied to a 90s cooldown after casting it. It can also be completely disabled if there are too many effects on the target, resulting in a fairly massive drop in MCH DPS if it happens multiple times in one fight, (which it almost assuredly will if it happens once). This is on the class that is tied with Bard as having the lowest base DPS to begin with, and that relies on that attack to reach that point. It's not as big of a deal if a single DoT is knocked off for a SMN or other classes, because while it does add up, they can simply recast that skill when something else wears off whenever they want. With MCH, this skill is tied to a 90s cooldown which means that if it doesn't apply but the skill is used, we simply lose out on that skill entirely for a minute and a half, (actually longer if you want to make the most out of it when you do use it)......

The status limit on enemies is a system that desperately needs to be reworked. Particularly as they add more and more skills that inflict some sort of status effect or DoT to classes, because it will get to a point where skills are constantly being prevented from activating on enemies in 24 player content simply because half the group is using all their skills. For point of reference, what I keep hearing is that that the visual DoT limit on enemies is around 40, and I think I've heard that the hard limit is around 50, (though it could have been less or more on the hard limit). Let's say in the extreme case, you go into a 24 player raid and the RNG hates your group, so you get 5 SMNs and 2 SCHs per party. JUST from them using Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, and Miasma 2, and JUST from the DoTs and not counting status effects from these skills, that would be 84 DoTs, plus another 6 Aero's from the SCHs, bringing us up to 90 potential DoTs active on a target at once. If the hard limit is 50, that means that 40 DoTs are completely lost even before accounting for skills like Virus and Eye for an Eye taking up slots, or even Shadow Flare, not to mention whatever tank skills are used that inflict debuffs. That would be all four DoTs from 10 members of your raid group that would be doing nothing what so ever, which means that potentially the entire DPS from two parties would be stuck without most of their skills able to do any damage. Again, this is in the most extreme case obviously, but it is a very real concern since so many classes have at least one or two DoTs, and a handful of other skills that inflict debuffs of some sort. Going back to MCH, I could potentially have 4 active skills on an enemy during the start of my burst that would take up a slot, even if they're immune to silence, and my theoretical situation was listing just 4 slots being taken by each member of the raid group minus the tanks. In most cases, all the slots might not be filled up CONSTANTLY by DoTs and debuffs, but just being filled up most of the time can result in a massive amount of damage and skills lost across the raid group....

I can understand why there are limits on this sort of thing, because it is necessary to limit just how much data is being sent back and forth from the server during large scale fights in order to maintain stability. I'm just saying that some sort of improvement really needs to be made in this regard. I'm not one to typically say "you must have have max DPS at all times", but when there is a potential for massive DPS loss across the raid group with player skill not factoring in, there is an issue that needs to be addressed......

Just to reiterate, the hard limit is 60, not 50.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

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It gets even worse when you start factoring in some of the tank's "OH ****!" buttons and PvP.

For those unaware, PvP is a 8v8v8 to 24v24v24 Flames v Maelstrom v Adders chaos unburdened. Assuming it's 24v24v24 and every person in the PvP has 1 buff/debuff they can use on you. That alone is 73 buffs/debuffs. Now, with a hard limit of 60 status icons, you can use this to simply BREAK the "OH ****!" buttons of the tanks. Paladin pops Hallowed Ground? Just DoT him up. Assuming Paladins can still be buffed/debuffed in HG, or at least have the attempt at debuffing count towards that hard limit, and you can see HG fall down. If buffs won't trigger after that hard limit, its even worse. Just make sure they're dotted up constantly, so when they try to HG, the cooldown is activated, but no buff is used. That's a 7 MINUTE cooldown wasted.

Same applies to Dark Knight and living dead. Once they trigger Walking Dead, just debuff them enough to trigger either the walking dead not activating at all, or cause it to fall off early so they die. Boom, 5 minute cooldown wasted.

Holmgang has a 3 minute cooldown, but same effect applies here.

There is a display limit of 30 debuff icons per mob. If you apply dots on a mob that already has, say, 40 debuffs, your dots will apply, but you will not see them. There is a hard limit of 60 debuffs that can be applied to a mob. This means if there are already 60 debuffs on a mob, and you apply dots, they will not work.

GG Diadem SMNs.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

There is a display limit of 30 debuff icons per mob. If you apply dots on a mob that already has, say, 40 debuffs, your dots will apply, but you will not see them. There is a hard limit of 60 debuffs that can be applied to a mob. This means if there are already 60 debuffs on a mob, and you apply dots, they will not work.

GG Diadem SMNs.

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This. But based on the info you gave, it's probably this.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I think it has something to do with how many debuffs and DoTs can be on a boss at the same time.
Also some skills with the same effect overwrites the old ones.
like NINs and WARs slashing debuff.

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You use Dancing edge solo. It works all good. You use it in a raid environment, someone else's dancing edge or storm's eye will make your icon disappear. Similarly for all defense down buffs. As for DoTs? This doesn't happen (i.e. they disappear) and it's likely that the icons were not there in the first place. The DoTs are there and ticking though. You can test by using fester when you don't see all 3 DoTs displayed, but you applied them. If you still got the 300 potency fester, then you hit the display limit. If you didn't, then you hit the debuff maximum.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

Just to reiterate, the hard limit is 60, not 50.

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Ah. Even so, redoing my numbers, that's still the potential for the entire DPS from one group, and 2 members from another, to be completely out of most of their skills. And that's still before we account for things like debuffs, status effects, Shadow Flare, and tank skills entirely, in that situation. Even looking at it this way, that's essentially going through a raid with 1/3 of the players being unable to do much more than cast the most basic attack against the bosses. That's a serious amount of DPS downtime no matter how you look at it.....

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Ah. Even so, redoing my numbers, that's still the potential for the entire DPS from one group, and 2 members from another, to be completely out of most of their skills. And that's still before we account for things like debuffs, status effects, Shadow Flare, and tank skills entirely, in that situation. Even looking at it this way, that's essentially going through a raid with 1/3 of the players being unable to do much more than cast the most basic attack against the bosses. That's a serious amount of DPS downtime no matter how you look at it.....

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Ground target moves do not target your target. They don't have a debuff icon; you a timer icon on your character (e.g shadow flare, flaming arrow, doton). That said, every class has about 3 DoTs on a target. Excluding healers, that enough for an entire alliance and then some. In addition, most of the stuff are non stackable (i.e. disembowel with another person's disembowel) or similar and non stackable (storms eye and dancing edge). This free's up space and you really only run into problems when you have more than 3 groups in content (such as open world hunts or the instanced ones in diadem).

If I remember right, you can toggle an announcement win your chat filters...haven't poked around in there in ages. So you may be able to add a notification when your buff/debuffs wear off. Provided your chat log isn't already filling up with spam, that is.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Ground target moves do not target your target. They don't have a debuff icon; you a timer icon on your character (e.g shadow flare, flaming arrow, doton). That said, every class has about 3 DoTs on a target. Excluding healers, that enough for an entire alliance and then some. In addition, most of the stuff are non stackable (i.e. disembowel with another person's disembowel) or similar and non stackable (storms eye and dancing edge). This free's up space and you really only run into problems when you have more than 3 groups in content (such as open world hunts or the instanced ones in diadem).

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Shadow Flare does, however, due to the slow effect it has.....

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

...That said, every class has about 3 DoTs on a target. Excluding healers...

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http://www.shinmh.com/blog/octubre20...-objection.png

WHM (a healer) DOES have 3 DoTs, SCH has 5. If this is 2.0 I would agree that healers having 2 DoTs would be the standard (thought SCH would still have 5), but as of now, only AST has 2 DoTs

Also BLM (not a helaer class) has only one DoT, thunder, which is shared between 3 skills, only difference is how long the debuff lasts, and discuiting Cross-classes MNK, DRG, and BRD has only 2 DoTs, while MCH, PLD and WAR have only 1 each (the latter being the cross-classable Fracture, which only MNK and DRG can use)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

WHM (a healer) DOES have 3 DoTs, SCH has 5. If this is 2.0 I would agree that healers having 2 DoTs would be the standard (thought SCH would still have 5), but as of now, only AST has 2 DoTs

Also BLM (not a helaer class) has only one DoT, thunder, which is shared between 3 skills, only difference is how long the debuff lasts, and discuiting Cross-classes MNK, DRG, and BRD has only 2 DoTs, while MCH, PLD and WAR have only 1 each (the latter being the cross-classable Fracture, which only MNK and DRG can use)

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Er... you quoted the healer part out of context... It's part of the next sentence, implying that healers aren't DPSing in 24 mans. And for the number 3, I was including debuffs that leave an icon on the target. Do that would include disembowel, dragon kick, foe's requiem, etc... which average out to 3 per dps and tank class.

As I posted in a thread on Diadem a while back, SCH has the potential to place something like 11/12 status icons on a mob via how the system works (even Eye2Eye goes on the mob). It doesn't take long before things start to miss!

There's something of a soft limit on the total numbers of Dot and effects a single mob can have displayed. I don't know what the total applied number is or how they would rotate off when a new one is applied. My guess is the icons might be limited to about two full rows (resolution and screen size?) of status effects unless the number of displayed effects is less than the total overall. I can't recall noticing three or four rows of icons (mostly from summoners), but if the effects are still there then the icons might have fallen off from new ones. Isn't there a setting somewhere for raids that will turn on or off the status effects applied by others/parties on the target mob, leaving your own visible?

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

There's something of a soft limit on the total numbers of Dot and effects a single mob can have displayed. I don't know what the total applied number is or how they would rotate off when a new one is applied. My guess is the icons might be limited to about two full rows (resolution and screen size?) of status effects unless the number of displayed effects is less than the total overall. I can't recall noticing three or four rows of icons (mostly from summoners), but if the effects are still there then the icons might have fallen off from new ones. Isn't there a setting somewhere for raids that will turn on or off the status effects applied by others/parties on the target mob, leaving your own visible?

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Read the posts above. It's all explained there.

As I said, this sometimes, rarely, happens during 4-man instances too.

It's a little odd, what everyone here says has some truth to it, but something just doesn't add up... using a DoT that is already applied by someone else will overwrites theirs and vice versa. But I main as a BRD and quite often, one of two from Venom Bite and Wind Bite will fall off half way through ALL the time, while one will always stick. For example, I hit Venom/Wind Bite, Wind falls off, Venom sticks, but there is another Venom DoT from another BRD. This should be looked into further...

What they should do is when people dot monsters.

It should make the timer go up and put a 2 - 3 stack counter on the dot that way we know at least something is staying on.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

What they should do is when people dot monsters.

It should make the timer go up and put a 2 - 3 stack counter on the dot that way we know at least something is staying on.

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They already did his with Poison, but that's an enemy only DoT and only found in specific cases (Tamtara normal still has non stacking poison debuffs) Vulnerability Up is more common seen in stacks.

I suppose the problem with stacking player-used debuffs is balance, specifically the possibility that the debuffer would spam the move to have the potency reach insane heights, but it would seem easy to fix

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

What they should do is when people dot monsters.

It should make the timer go up and put a 2 - 3 stack counter on the dot that way we know at least something is staying on.

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How will you know when your windbite (for example) falls off?

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

How will you know when your windbite (for example) falls off?

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Go into your chat log filters, pick a log, pick the battle list, engaged enemy, and toggle the notices for detrimental effects from you?

This happen to me a lot when I do Void Ark, were I put Mutilate and the icon doesn't show in the debuff bar of the boss.