Hear me out, I've just been thinking; people already sometimes have to use Duality on their Armor Crushes due to just not having the time or flexibility in their rotations. What if as a QOL change, a Duality Armor Crush gave you a double refresh, for 60 seconds of Huton duration increase? Maybe have the second effect halved/cut to a third or something if that's seen as excessive.
I can't really see this being that big a deal, and applying bonuses twice wouldn't really do anything to Shadow Fang or Dancing Edge anyway, the duration of the debuff refresh would be the same.
Would Duality working with combo effects be a bad idea?
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12-03-2015, 10:05 AMIrysaWould Duality working with combo effects be a bad idea?
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12-03-2015, 10:21 AMSevyrr
This... is a point I've thought about before, and was very upset about when I took the time to properly read Duality's skill description.
The only issue I could see arising from this change would be related to either: A) some future skill they intend to add at a later point, or B) some coding problem that is (somehow) unresolvable without heavy modifications of the current system.
(And a lot of salty Bard's complaining that Barrage should work the same way. But then again... A) the only thing that could be "abused" with Barrage would be the Heavy Shot proc chance which would be a severe drop in dps, and B) there aren't any other stacking additional effects from the Bard kit.) -
12-03-2015, 10:27 AMGamer3427
Why would people have to use Duality on Armor Crush? I mean, I can see benefits to what you're suggesting, but do people really just never leave enough time on their Huton to allow them to get in an Aeolian Edge when Duality is up? I've never had that issue, and while my rotation is probably far from perfect, I still put out relatively high damage as a NIN when I don't screw up my combos.....
EDIT: Also, I'm not attempting to be one of those, "I can do it so everyone should be able to", type people. I'm just legitimately curious as to whether I'm missing something entirely in regards to the rotation. I don't play NIN that often, and I'm also only level 58 on it, so it's entirely possible I have no clue what I'm talking about..... -
12-03-2015, 11:36 AMMagiusNecros
I wish Duality let all weaponskills strike twice for 10 seconds. Basically a Ninja's very own self buff in lieu of Trick Attack. I'm a bit bummed it's just a glorified Life Surge without the heal. Optimal use of Duality would be for Aeo Edge since it would be our hardest hitting attack. Personally though if you know you won't be able to fit an Aeo in then you can spend Duality on a different attack or just wait until you have a good opportunity to use it with Aeo.
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12-03-2015, 11:59 AMViridianaThat would be awesome, but would also be pretty overpowered. It would be about as powerful as Mutilate dot if Mutilate had 100% uptime. And it would be at least as powerful as TA and stack with TA (every other TA, anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
As for whether to hold it or not, I summarized the math here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3144531
The math itself is a page or so before that, iirc. -
12-03-2015, 12:28 PMFellesarah
Do not waste time wondering how to improve the ninja dps whenever the dragoons and mnk are 80-100 dps up over the ninja , the ninja is only a support class to improve raid dps ... its a fact
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12-03-2015, 01:05 PMMagiusNecros
To the main point I'm gonna say no. The tooltip explicitly says that the damage inflicted will be applied twice but the bonuses will not. For Armor Crush the bonus is the +30 seconds of Huton. If they should do anything it's change the little blurb when you hover over Duality in combat and change next weaponskill will strike "multiple times" to "twice". Because nitpick. Only ever seen it double the damage and not triple or quad it.
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12-03-2015, 11:32 PMMrCookTMBecause that's the proper way to do it, as using duality on your next armor crush is a dps increase over holding it for your AE, unless you would AE combo right after AC (aka you don't have to mutilate/SF because they're still running and don't fall of soon), in which case holding it a few seconds for AE is worth it. Shasta's guide has the math for this, if your interested. Also having enough time on your huton doesn't really matter, as long as you don't use AC with more than 40 seconds left on huton, the amount of AC's/AE's you do doesn't change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer3427
On the topic itself: I like the idea of duality AC giving more huton uptime, but the only thing that would do is increasing nin's personal dps, which is not needed. Nin is already highly wanted for every progression group, and nin doing more personal dps as it does right now, would probably fuck with melee balance pretty hard. -
12-03-2015, 11:58 PMJamillion
If I could just crit on Duality I'd be happy. I mean really, what's the point in denying us that small pleasure?
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12-04-2015, 12:09 AMMagiusNecrosSo the devs can feel A Dream within a Dream is an amazing skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamillion
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12-04-2015, 12:42 AMJamillionYeah, that skill somehow manages to piss me off even more lol, 3 separate attacks that you have to roll crit on, bollocks! Bollocks, I say!Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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12-04-2015, 12:54 AMRiceisNiceIt's not anymore annoying than something like Ricochet getting it's latter potency split evenly with all targets (including invulnerable ones) whether you like it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Back on topic though, I wouldn't thin duality would make any difference if it applied combo/secondary effects. The only thing it'd change is AC's hueton extension, and you're looking at a 60 second boost out of a 70 second maximum. Debuffs from dancing edge and shadow fang wouldn't stack either.
In the same case as BRD, none of their "secondary" effects from their weaponskills actually stack with each other; your buffs such as straight(er) shot don't stack, and your debuff applications don't stack. It also comes down to the only time you'd be using barrage is your strongest weapon skill (empyreal arrow) with all buffs active. -
12-04-2015, 01:04 AMMagiusNecros
If Duality made AC a 60 second extend I certainly would not complain. You could fit an extra Aeo Edge in there.
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12-04-2015, 01:05 AMViridianaSince this disagrees with the math I posted earlier, I looked up Shasta's NIN guide. Neither his reddit post nor his forum guide go into the math beyond "don't delay it so long that you lose a chance to use it later." The math I did earlier says that it's fine to do AC->SF->MU->DualityAE, because that's still a pps increase over using it for AC (just barely). Until someone points out a flaw in my math, anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCookTM
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12-04-2015, 01:22 AMSevyrr
... I realise I could increase my dps by still using the dots reading this.
I don't really know (aside from sloth) why I ever stopped.
to respond to a few points made:- Getting critical hits on Duality would be crazy good, but also require critical hits on Barrage which would be even more so. (Empyreal Arrow doesn't need three critical hits in one strike... think of the tank's enmity!)
- Dream within a Dream looks so amazing when you do get that rarest of rolls where all three hits proc a critical, but I've always been wary of that kind of skill because of unsurety about the relative scaling of potency to damage (is it flat/exponential, I don't know.)
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12-04-2015, 01:35 AMViridianaIt's very nearly on a line shaped like ((X*Potency) - Y). Only sometimes that Y is basically 0, and other times it's not. Because SE hates me, or something. >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevyrr
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12-04-2015, 02:58 AMKenji1134
I though that Duality did not consider combo bonuses?
So when you do AE under Duality, do both hits do roughly the same damage? Or does 1 hit do ~3x the damage of the other?
If the latter is true, then the best thing to use Duality on would be the 150 potency combo starter. -
12-04-2015, 03:00 AMJonnycbad
Stop thinking of Duality as something unique. Instead, think of it more as NIN's flavor of DRG's Lifesurge. The only reason they SPECIFICALLY say it doesn't double the bonus is because instead of just giving NIN their own 'next WS crits' was to make it seemingly set apart from DRG. In reality, NIN and DRG are very similar. Both get a 10% slashing/piercing ability at 38, both get a 360pot skill (Raiton/Full Thrust). Everything balances out. Start thinking of Duality as a functional equivalent and NIN's version of Life Surge--to be used on your highest potency WS (Duality doubles the potency compared to LS which just makes it crit;however Duality has a longer recast therefore it balances out in the end). They simply added the clarification that it doesn't double your bonuses so people don't get any silly ideas.
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12-04-2015, 03:04 AMMagiusNecrosCombo bonus Potency is added. Additional effects that affect the target or the Ninja(huton) are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji1134
So say you used Duality on Dancing Edge. The debuff placed is applied only once. But if used in a combo you land that 260 potency attack twice in a row.
So if you hit for say 1000. You would hit for 1000 again. Give or take.
With this said your highest potency weapon skill is Aeo Edge. So at rear you turn a 320 pot attack into a 640 pot attack. -
12-04-2015, 03:12 AMViridianaIt doesn't double Combo Bonus or Additional Effect. So Armor Crush has Combo Bonus of "Extends Huton duration by 30s to a maximum of 70s." And Mutilate has an Additional Effect of "Damage over time." But Armor Crush has a Combo Potency (listed separately from the Combo Bonus) of "220 (280 when executed from a target's flank)." Since Duality does not say it does not apply Combo Potency twice...well, you get the combo potency twice. It's actually pretty clearly written, once you look at a few other tooltips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenji1134
Edit: And now I need to go make a localization post about how AC and AE handle their potency descriptions differently... -
12-04-2015, 03:23 AMMagiusNecros
That's all it is. A stronger life surge. Without the heal. It is stronger then LS yes but I think the skill is so lackluster when you make that connection a ninja hits things fast and hard and multiple times. The ability had the potential to hit twice with each WS for 10 seconds but they said whoa wait a minute and just gave you a slightly better lvl 18 skill as a lvl 58 skill. And then rub it in with ADfaD and let you hit 3 times but for 100 pot each all with a chance to crit.
Grump grump aside Duality Aeo Edge is our strongest attack in our kit. Duality is good but it could have been better. -
12-04-2015, 03:24 AMRiceisNiceDoubling weapon skills for 10 seconds is absurdly overpowered for burst damage, especially since NIN pumps out the most weaponskills per second alongside with monk.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Not to disagree that NIN could have gotten better changes instead of straight up utility and oGCD damage (meaning in general, not duaility specifically), though. I feel they really dropped the ball on that in regards to NIN, BRD and MCH. -
12-04-2015, 03:31 AMMagiusNecros
I just don't like samey skills. The only skill in HW for Ninja I care about the most is just Armor Crush. Enmity control is for bad groups or to let the Tank DPS more. Or give a overzealous healer or a guy who doesn't have quelling strikes take a chill pill.
I do find it interesting that both NIN and DRK for their lvl 60 skill both are quoted as using a 3 fold attack but only Ninja's hit 3 times. They really need to be more clear with these tooltips. -
12-04-2015, 03:55 AMJonnycbadYes, but NIN has a host of other tools pre-58 that made it on par or better than DRG even with life surge. Even if NIN's DPS was slightly below DRG pre3.0, +10% raid damage for 20% of the time contributes significantly more added damage than a DRG does. So really, they gave it to NIN late in the game because they didn't really need it in 2.0. In 3.0, now that MNK and DRG are stronger they had to give NIN a few things to increase their damage as well--hence Duality. It's all balanced in its own way.Quote:
That's all it is. A stronger life surge. Without the heal. It is stronger then LS yes but I think the skill is so lackluster when you make that connection a ninja hits things fast and hard and multiple times. The ability had the potential to hit twice with each WS for 10 seconds but they said whoa wait a minute and just gave you a slightly better lvl 18 skill as a lvl 58 skill.
Given that other DPS have a native skill to boost the damage of the next WS (Reassemble, Life Surge, Barrage), NIN was given one as well. Don't forget NIN has a permanent 20% DPS boost with their Venoms compared to MNK which gets 5% and DRG which gets 15% (but requires upkeep). -
12-04-2015, 06:10 AMFellesarah
Ninja skills for heavensward are a crap ... why agro skill for ninja??? I do no want to be a support class, the ninja dps is ridiculous and the only utility it is to be an enhancer dps for the raid group, i will wait for samurai ...
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12-04-2015, 07:05 AMViridianaGood luck with that. So far there are no DPS classes who don't bring utility. If you're expecting SAM to change that, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellesarah
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12-05-2015, 01:27 AMMrCookTMCould have sworn I read that in Shasta's guide, though maybe my interpretation was just hella off lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
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12-05-2015, 01:56 AMZojhaWell, to be fair: Monk is really damn close. All they bring is an Int.Down that DRK brings as well. Blunt.R.Down isn't exactly big utility when you consider the only one affected by it are...other monks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
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12-05-2015, 02:03 AMIrysaHey, it can boost SMN dps by like, 5 or something! (sitting next to boss set to autoattack during the instants they have nothing to press inbetween for GCD!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Why would it increase NIN's personal DPS above what the optimal is anyway? This doesn't actually make the best case scenario higher, it would only stand to very slightly increase DPS in suboptimal situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCookTM
Honestly the main reason I was even thinking about this was because Duality and Dream Within a Dream are just so boring. Having some kind of flavor to them or alternative ways to utilise them would give the skills a bit more personality. I realise it's impossible to avoid there being optimal choices in a rotation everytime, but suboptimal choices can still have appeal if they've got benefits like consistency or ease. -
12-05-2015, 02:17 AMViridianaClose, yes, but not quite. The Int Down debuff used to be basically essential for progression. Not sure if it still is, but if it is, you can only get that through MNK and DRK, and it definitely counts for utility. Just because it shares the utility with another class doesn't mean it doesn't count, either, or else SMN would be a prime example of "no utility." After all, SCH is probably more popular than DRK for raiding. And MNK also gets that boosted Mantra. Granted neither is overly impressive, but it's still utility. If his complaint is that he wants to do lots of DPS and not do support, his best option is probably MNK, not SAM. But even then you can't deny that MNK has support aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
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12-05-2015, 02:47 AMCallback
I just don't see why the first hit gets its crit chance removed. That's dumb. Sure the bonus hit can be crit-less but why does it DROP YOUR CRIT TO 0 for the base attack?
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12-05-2015, 03:11 AMMagiusNecrosTo make ADwaD look like a great thing. It's lazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Callback
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12-05-2015, 03:53 AMSevyrrYeah I can pretty much only see this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
It makes building for critical hit rate kind of disappointing, considering that at high numbers with i210 gear (my ninja gear chart ends up with 966 critical hit rate at current BiS without Mistbreak) you're approaching +100% damage, meaning a critical hit pretty much gives you that duality bonus anyway. -
12-05-2015, 04:24 AMViridianaThat's only, like, +60% damage, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevyrr
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12-05-2015, 09:14 AMMrCookTMBecause less AC means more AE? I don't know how this would not be the case in a best case scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irysa
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12-05-2015, 11:08 AMIrysa
You lose a Duality AE for some more non Duality AE's.
Looks zero sum to me. -
12-05-2015, 07:43 PMSevyrrThe 966 crit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
If you lose a Duality AE for a Duality AC, that's 640 potency swapped for 560, so -80.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irysa
The question is how many AC's would you then be changing to AE? At 2, you're gaining 80 potency, so as you say a zero sum. If you'd manage more than two before the next Duality was up, then I suppose you're "gaining" raw potency, but not by an awfully noticable amount. -
12-06-2015, 02:09 AMViridianaYeah, at 966 crit total, you should be doing 1.6x damage with crits. Really more like 1.59x, I guess. If you want crits that are twice the damage of your non-crits, you would need something like 2,360 crit rating total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevyrr
The answer is zero, because you must always be averaging 2 AC per minute, or Huton will drop off, unless you're in a situation where it makes sense to hardcast Huton during an invuln phase. In a 350 second fight, you're going to have to use Huton about 10 times (assuming about 50s left on pull). If you Duality AC, and get full +duration, that can be two out of your ten times, but you still need to use it 8 more times before the end of the fight. Your next AE will not be Duality AE, but you can move an AE forward to do more in a row. Basically, all you've done is move from Duality AE plus 2x AC to 2x AE plus Duality AC. The effect of this on your potency per second depends entirely on how much crit you have, as this change only effects where the crits can go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevyrr
Edit: I did the math, and the current max-crit setup for NIN would make Duality AC + 2x AE less than 18 expected potency above Duality AE + 2x AC. So if you have to sacrifice pretty much anything to set this up, like, say, losing a single dot tick, you're losing potency. And, of course, this assumes that Duality AC would actually give full +60 duration. -
12-07-2015, 05:34 AMSevyrr... damn, that's insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
.... wow, I stand in awe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
At least it shows that, in theory, there would be a dps-gain. Irrelevant but to a parser, perhaps, but a gain nonetheless. A lot of people would go for that.
What resource did you use for the above information, by the way? I should perhaps familiarise myself with it to stop making such huge over-estimations in the future. -
12-07-2015, 05:56 AMViridianaTo get the crit formulas, I went to Dervy's blog: https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/damag...her-mechanics/Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevyrr
Max crit setup was from going to Ariyala's and using max Diadem crit stats on any slot that didn't already have max crit options: ffxiv.ariyala.com
And the rest was just algebra.