Hey mates, Miu here, long post inc, there is no TLDR :>
I've been playing this game since 1.0, I've always been a whm ever since so I'm experienced enough I think with 6 world firsts and 5 world second's under my belt. I was really looking forward to ast, but even with the buffs it's meh, feels underpowered and frankly is frustrating to play sometimes. AST is really fun to play, but it's being overshadow-ed in a major way by either other healing classes. The top 3 issues are GCD management (the main resource of healers), Bad MP management and the worst, it just doesn't heal as well as either without wasting mp/gcd's.
Whm has way more healing power. With Cure III for simple close range powerbombs, Longranged Medica II Regens and Asize/asylum/tetra for GCD-less and mp-less healing, it outclasses ast by a mile. MP regeneration is ezpz with asize and shroud. Whm can easily do dps while healing with regens without going oom.
Sch outclasses AST by a mile with adlo's, one crit and you save a lot of GCD's. Eos/Selene is MPless and GCDless healing as well while you dps/regen mp/do whatever else. It has instant heals with indom/lustrates. It has aoe regen with Eos and aoe shields with succor. It regens MP easily with aetherflows with it's short cd. Sch excels in dps without going oom or wasting gcd's on healing, eos/whm regens do most of the work.
AST Can do both, yet it really doesn't. Everything AST does, whm/sch does better. I'll suggest some changes that I think will improve AST a lot, make it worth to bring in progression without killing either of the other healing classes.
General Changes: Make ALL effects of AST NON-STACKABLE with other healing classes. AST Regens cannot stack with WHM regens. Shields don't stack already so that's fine. But you don't want lolafk regens with both classes in the same group.
Aspected Benefic:
Current: It's meh. It's an instant small heal and an 18 second regen (3 seconds shorter than whm. That's right, a whole GCD!). In sch form it gives a small shield for 707 mp, doesn't increase much when it crits.
Suggested Change: In whm form, bring the regen to 21 seconds, keep the instant small heal the same as the mp cost of this reflects it. In sch form, make it the same as sch. At crit, the shield it twice as gud. Increase to 150 potency to be inline with whm regen.
Benefic:
Current: Keep it, it's gud. Typical Cure. Lower MP cost is fine, aspected benefic's higher mp cost compensates this.
Benefic II:
Current: It's fine as well, the proc uses more mp than whm, but it's instant. It means it can safe a gcd at the cost of mp, and that's fine.
Suggested Change: Give it a proc like Cure II. 10% chance to increase your Spell Speed for 10 seconds at 15%. Fits the AST Lore Things as well, time and stuff.
Aspected helios:
Current: It's meh. It's a decent regen at mediocre range. Medica II outclasses it by a mile.
Suggested Change: In whm stance, keep the mp and cast time the same, increase range to reflect Medica II. In sch stance, keep the range the same, reduce cast time by .5 seconds, make it a succor clone. Why is it different, well check out the suggested change for Helios. Bring potency up to 50 to be inline with Medica II. Up the MP cost to 1502 for WHM Stance.
Helios:
Current: It's gud, but bland. It's Medica without the 50% MP Proc.
Suggested change: Sch stance; make it have a proc chance. 20% to make Aspected Helios Free and Instant? Is this overpowered? No not at all. Both whm and sch have asize and indom in that order. Ast has cards that makes it unique, but misses that instant heal. This gives the class a bit more uniqueness as well. Also, it makes you use it even if people don't really need it, freeing up GCD's.
Exalted Detriment:
Current: It's Esuna/Leeches, great.
Suggested Change: Now I'm not certain of this, but having a 25% chance to make the next Exalted Detriment instant and ogcd might be interesting, in line with AST's specialisation with speed.
*Essential Dignity: *
Current: It's great, keep it like this. Gud OGCD, scales nice. Honestly is one of AST's strong points. Fills the void of Tetra/Bene as whm, and instant lustrates of sch.
Collective Unconciousness.
Current: It's gud.. yet it's so shit. Great healing + Damage mitigation, but it eats almost 8 GCDs!! due to it being channeled. Luckily the regen stays, but having the mitigation stay as well is op I think. But losing so many gcd's is just bad design.
Suggested Change: The only change I'd say, is make it root/bind you in place and make it so you can still cast stuff. Clicking the butan again unroots/unbinds you, and you lose the buffs immidiately as well. Is it op? Not in the slightest. Whm have asylum with NO penalty. Sch has Sacred Soil with NO penalty. CU will have a penalty, but at the cost of not being able to move it has best of both worlds. Yes, it would and should stack with Sacred Soil.
That's it for the healing aspect of AST, onto the buffs.
Synastry:
Current: Not sure what to think about it, it's a love/hate relationship really. It's gud, but it's very shit at the same time.
Suggested Change: Split the buff into two. Ast is already lacking butans and this would be a great way to solve it.
Buff 1: The Split healing buff. It's great but for specific situations/tank splits. One of the biggest issues is that you cannot heal yourself, it doesn't work for the buff, and it should. Another issue is that aoe healing nor regens work on it. What I'm suggesting is that it does, but on a small scale. Keep the CD to 90 seconds, maybe increase to 120. Increase duration from 20 to 21 seconds to line up with GCD timings like any other ability in game. Any regen effect will have 5-10% of it transferred TO the target, it subtracts it from it. So if you have a 1500 regen on Target A with synastry on Target B, it will remove 150 from Target A and transfer it to Target B. End result: Target A will get a 1350 regen and Target B will get a 150 regen. This way it doesn't create additional healing, but rather transfers it. The same would go for shields, but instead of overwriting the shields, it would be added to the current shield buff(maybe a new buff?). 10% is a lot, so for shields it'd be like 3-5%. You get the idea.. This would go for normal healing as well. A cure of 5000 will transfer 500 to the target. Equally and aoe heal of 2500 times 7 = 17500. Means 1750 would be transferred to the target. This also solves the separation between healers. Whm is a powerhouse healer with Cure III/Asize/Asylum/Bene/Tetra. Sch is a mitigation healer with superb adlo's, deployment, eating da fairy for bigger shields. Now AST can do something cool and specific/unique healing wise as well! Something the class really needed aside from cards. Along with the quickness of ast, this buff would go extremely well and would feel natural. Keep in mind the numbers are there for examples, maybe they should be increased or decreased, as long as they are *IN LINE** with Whm/Sch abilities to be able to both complement or replace either.
*Buff 2: The Healing buff, make it a nice static 25% orso for 15 seconds like Divine Seal/The Eos Buff. A 60 second CD to accommodate it, in line with the other buffs.
Lightspeed:
Current: It's great, but short.
Suggested Change: I'd increase it from 10 to 12-13 seconds, and decrease the cd to
120 seconds. Other than that it's fine and does well. This way all healers have instant aoe heal options, AST's costs MP though, but can push out more in times off need. It's like a different kind of Presence of Mind. Being able to be mobile is great at the cost of mp.
Luminiferous Aether:
Current: It's a personal Quelling + Refresh, very similar to Shroud. It's fine, it's different but the same. Though I'd increase the quelling effect to a little bit of a stronger one. 120 second cd is fine.
Disable:
Current: It's great, keep it like this. AST's don't have virus/eye, this stacks with them.
Celestial Opposition:
Current: It's gud, remove the stun, you'll see why. This should NOT be a stun, this is a UTILITY ABILITY, not OFFENSIVE ABILITY. Se pls.
Time Dilation:
Current: It's gud.
Suggested Change: Make it offensive as well. Put dots on boss, disable, time dilation, extends the dots and disable by 15 seconds (maybe 10 for offensive use?). Would solve mp issues a lot, and makes it more versatile. Might be incredibly op so prolly a bad idea. Would NOT work on debuffs like slow/stun of course. Combined with Disable it's a gud replacement for Eye for an Eye/Virus. Also gives the player choice of how to use it.
The Sects themselves: Keep them like this. The individual buffs are fine, makes
either class different to play. Downside is that Hardcore progression raiders need two sets of Best in Slot, kinda fun as well.
Dps Abilities:
Stella:
Current: Great, used for heavy.
Suggested Change: Change to 2 second stun, will be used more often like this.
Combust and Combust II:
Current: Good dps, keep them the same.
Malefic:
Current: Shit, never used it once.
Suggested Change: Give it 40% heavy.
Malefic II:
Current: Keep the same, it's gud.
Gravity:
Current: Targeted holy without the stun that holy does.
Suggested Change: Give it a 20% SLOW, that's right. A buff hardly used ingame, it's great for aoe pulls. Obviously bosses wouldn't be affected, mobs would be.
New Ability: Combust III
Currently: Doesn't exist, but all healers have an aoe dot mechanic (Aero III, Bane), AST does not.
Implementation: Make it like Aero III in terms of potency, but 21 seconds. So you can use it for single target rotation, but can't spam it. Great for big pulls in dungeons as well to use just the once, and it's the missing dps spell that SE apparently missed. 707 mp like Aero III, 3 second cast time. Maybe a smaller radius than Aero III, lets say 4 y.
OR
New Ability II: Gravity II
Currently: Doesn't exist, a reddit user brought this up: august9979
A ground-targeted aoe, much like shadowflare, that does a dot + heavy effect. Simple and effective. I prefer this one, it fits much more.
Da Cards!
Finally, the cards, one of the things what makes AST AST. Now the BIGGEST issue, for both progression wise and casual play wise, is the rng. I often see myself drawing a spire, Royal Roading it, getting a spear, shuffling it, getting another spear.. Great. I right click it, useless. 30 seconds later, another spear -.-;. There's multiple ways to solve this, either by reducing the RNG, or making the cards useful. I don't wanna use that spear cause It would be aoe, what a waste. If there was a way I could use it single target but unbuffed, that'd be great, but with the current implementation I don't see this happening either. Another way of solving it is adding three butans, one for Resources (Ewer/Spire). One for DPS (Balance/Arrow). One for Utility (Bole/Spear). But.. that's another three butans.. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it, but having future expansions in mind as well it seems to be getting too complicated. Aside that you wouldn't use utility over dps/resources unless it's VERY specific. With the healing/sustainability buffs I suggested it means AST will do MORE damage on it's own, thus reducing the balance and arrow cards might be an idea. From 10% to 8% would be fine I think. They are still REALLY good, but not overpowering in the sense that AST becomes mandatory like sch is.
What I'm suggesting is would solve all of this, and the mp issue.
Shuffle:
You cannot re-draw the card you're reshuffling. 60 second is fine with this change, some rng is fine, but this removes a stupid issue of draw-ing the card again.
New Ability: Card Nom (Name TBD).
Implementation: You eat da card for mp. Draw a spear, meh, eat it, get 3% mp back, I was thinking 5%, but it would be too much, most ast abilities have lower mp cost in general. Additionally depending on what sec you're in, it would give a 5% Spell Speed or 5% Healing potency buff for 10 seconds. A 60 second CD should balance this well I think. This would NOT eat your royal roaded card, keeps your shuffle off CD, solves MP issues as well, it's win-win. Obviously, ewer-ing yourself is still more mp, but you don't always wanna do that as royal-roading an ewer is amazing as well! This gives you multiple choices and gives AST the depth that I was looking for as well without making it complicated as hell. Sch has great mp management with 20% aetherflows on 60cd. Whm has shroud and assize. Now AST has something to sustain itself as
well.
The Cards themselves are balanced fine, but this makes the unwanted cards useful.
In my opinion and experience as a 5-year long progression healer in this game, and like 7 orso in wow, this would balance AST to be able to compete and suplement WHM and AST without neither overpowering them, nor underpowering them. AST becomes another option.
There's PLENTY of things I haven't thought of of course, maybe other people have brilliant ideas to bring AST in line, i'm just but one mind. I just hope SE listens and I'm not typing all this for nothing ; ;7
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11-21-2015, 06:46 AMMiunihSuggested changes to AST Design to bring it in line with WHM/SCH
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11-21-2015, 08:12 AMAshelia_Ferron
They're fine as they are. A few QoL changes maybe, but there is no need for some overhaul like you're suggesting.
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11-21-2015, 08:30 AMSidra
I agree in that these massive changes aren't necessary - it isn't that far off. To me, the biggest problem with AST is that in FFXIV, healers also DPS, and AST is the only one of the 3 healers that has serious MP problems when trying to do both.. Although I would like the Aspected Helios range increased as well.
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11-21-2015, 08:40 AMAnova
I can see the rationale behind Shuffle (it is frustrating to draw the same card) and "card nom" as an additional way to recover MP (other healers have 2 reliable methods of MP regen). So sure, those are interesting ideas and I'd be fine with them.
I agree that the AST in noct stance is just not as effective imitating SCH as diurnal is imitating WHM, but i honestly don't think replicating SCH barrier heals are the solution. SCH's fairy pet also provides a lot of free healing that just isn't available for WHM and AST, so you'd probably want to focus on that instead of the barrier. It would solve the MP issue better (leading to more dps-to-burst-heal rotations) without completely usurping the strength of the WHM or SCH job.
Otherwise, some of the buffs for the damage spells are interesting but unnecessary or of small value. Slow on Gravity (or a DoT) would be nice and lore-appropriate. AST damage is the worst amongst healers, but it's offset by the cards. There is a lot of RNG there but it's not too much of a difference and you generally get a couple good draws over the course of a dungeon/fight. You won't output damage like a SCH or WAR, but it's close enough to a WHM that I don't think it matters.
Similarly, the healing doesn't need any more buffs. Yes, the stances aren't as good as WHM or SCH, but it's not intended to be a replacement for those classes. It's meant to fulfill their role as main/raid healer in 8-man content and the AST does that well enough.
I also see no need to buff malefic simply because it gets replaced with malefic2 later. All the healer spells are like that. No WHM uses Stone II once they have Stone III and nobody uses Ruin when they have Broil. Yes, it should probably change, but there's no reason to improve AST's malefic specifically and not the others.
As a side note, I don't see any point in adding new abilities unless you're hoping these changes come out in the next expansion. At which point, I'd suggest other abilities that play to the meta than playing catch-up to the other classes (who will gain new abilities that make them even better). -
11-21-2015, 08:41 AMVelox
You're basically suggesting that they do as much HPS as a WHM (even more with the Synestry buff which is currently the most powerful heal buff in the game) and still retain their card buffs on top of that? You might as well just type out "I want to make WHM obsolete as much as possible."
The reason they have weaker abilities is BECAUSE they have utility. WHM has 0 party utility other than the cross-classed Virus (which is useless in raiding since everything is magic) and Eye for an Eye which has a much longer cooldown than the traited version ACN has. All WHM can do is heal. That's it. If they don't do it the best, then there's no point in even having it as a playable job.
I agree that Nocturnal stance leaves a lot to be desired for AST since SCH is pretty OP right now (probably the strongest healer of the 3 when averaging offensive ability, defensive ability, MP managment, MP cost, heal ability, and utility all together). Diurnal is fine the way it is. -
11-21-2015, 08:45 AMKerrigen
While some of your ideas are decent, I don't think what you're suggesting balances AST with SCH well at all. I know you're a WHM first and foremost but your suggestions would merely allow AST to be super competitive with WHM. I also personally don't think that'd make AST all that unique either, they'd be a few steps closer to WHM that what they currently are. Now that's just me, and I don't think this is necessary bad but why make it even more of a clone by touching durations and potencies while in Diurnal only?
You're not suggesting anything to fix the bad interactions of Nocturnal skills with TD/CO, you don't touch on the mitigation perks SCH has over AST (Covenant/Deployment Tactics/CU having 3x the CD of Soil), you're not even touching on what is your main argument: AST can't DPS well because they can't stay in Cleric for a very long time. With your suggestions, they could DPS more while in Diurnal but still would have to heal just as much as they do now in Nocturnal. You're basically completely ignoring Nocturnal exists or implying it's good as is (which comes as really questionable for someone with such a raiding pedigree as yours), when Nocturnal is widely considered as inferior to Diurnal and to SCH in the first place.
I mean, let's be realistic here: this is how you get rid of WHM, not how you make all 3 combinations equally viable. -
11-21-2015, 08:49 AMMiunihThis is exactly what Im looking for. Making AST unique is hard, and honestly I'm not doing a good idea, these are just ideas to make them competitive with both whm and sch. I mean, why would you bring an ast to progression if either sch or whm just outclasses it. I also don't really know sch too well, but well enough. What my idea for ast is that it can replace either without nullifying the uniqueness of it. I want a REASON to bring ast to progression, at the moment, there is none :<Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerrigen
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11-21-2015, 08:52 AMKerrigenJust know that I absolutely agree with you conceptually. We need all options to be viable for progression. I just don't think it would make SCH any less mandatory than it already is, which would bring about yet another imbalance (2 jobs sharing a single raid spot). This isn't too hot either as a SCH main who would like to play AST for progression content. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Miunih
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11-21-2015, 09:13 AMVelox
If you're looking to make AST unique, you come up for solutions to the one aspect of it that MAKES it unique. The cards. If you touch either healing or mitigation, you're just bringing it closer to WHM or SCH. Yes that may make it more viable, but that won't make it unique. If you keep their current healing and mitigation the same though, and alter the card system in a way that it makes AST desirable, then you've achieved perfection.
That being said, I have a feeling Alex2 won't be the same as Alex1. SE has already agreed that they are disappointed by the numbers they are seeing, and agree that the Alex1 mechanics favor DPS a little too much and only cater to certain jobs. Since they know this, I can almost guarantee you Alex2 will rectify this and be closer to Coil in design (unique nondamage-oriented mechanics, a nice blend of both physical and magical outgoing damage, laxed enrage timers or HP pools, less pure RNG, etc). AST may not even need a buff come 3.2 because the mechanics we see will automatically allow for it to be competitive.
Sometimes you don't have to change the class, you only need to change the environment. This is also part of the careful balancing act developers have to account for when designing content. -
11-21-2015, 09:48 AMVlady
Astro to be retooled will have to see an entirely new concept and should not step in the toes if white mage and scholar. Wont happen until 4.0 and right now it is as good as white mage in progression. Synastry is very good and should not be changed.
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11-21-2015, 09:58 AMMiunihNo it's not, that's the whole issue. You will NOT see one ast in any world top 5 groups unless they change something drastic before 3.2. Sad as the class is really fun, but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlady
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11-21-2015, 10:42 AMAzureFlare
I'm sorry, but for someone that has so many world first/second under their belt, you're undermining the issue in favor of potency buffs. Sure, your suggestions improve AST but improving can also lead to it becoming blatantly overpowered.
Just going to nitpick a few things out of it:
Stella heavy to stun. Please, don't. As an avid PvP player I would absolutely skewer anyone who comes up with this, even if you give the Heavy to Malefic, it would just make it even more broken in PvP. Stella is fine where it stands, Malefic is the bloat spell.
Combust 3/Gravity 2: We don't need any other AoE beyond Gravity, at least not in this fashion. If you want to make it interesting, make it so that Stella on a target with both Combust and Combust 2 caused a Supernova or something for that AoE.
Time Dilation: Extending debuffs will not help your mana unless you're going to idle instead of tossing Malefic 2. Time Dilation is already a tool hard to use for average/new ASTs since they get tunnelvisioned on the cards, while it can extend 3 HoTs at best + Bole on a tank. Now that is mana saving.
Collective Unconsciousness: The regen has no penalty bar channeling a maximum of 3 seconds, and just getting the regen on everybody will make it beat Asylum. The mitigation does have a penalty since you need to channel for as long as it takes to land the hit(s), but you already have a regen and a mitigation component. Channeling it longer than required to get the HoT off is just icing on the cake and free potency you won't have to spend later. Like literally, it could be replaced with a same radius instant buff for everyone near you to give a 15s regen and a 3s mitigation and it would be the exact same bar channeling it further, except having the mitigation be extendable.
Card to get mana back: No. All the cards are fine, what isn't fine is drawing cards of the same category into one another (Spire/Ewer/Spire, 3x spire, 3x spear). Whoever thinks mana is a problem for an AST is missing the part where it isn't the mana, but the fight itself making you spend mana differently and arguably, less efficiently. I've already mathematically proven in another thread that two blank or an extended Ewer will put you ahead of WHM with both having 14k mana total, for any fight lasting shorter than 11 minutes. Unless your RNG is really bad, you will get to that point.
What is keeping AST back are unfavorable fights and people not accustomed to utilising the full kit it has. Fights favor a main healer + hybrid DPS/healer that can chip in more healing only during heavy burst, meaning AST would never have the second healer slot over SCH. On the main slot it is already getting close to WHM, only missing a few comfort things like a disjointed AoE heal (or one slightly more powerful than Helios) compared to Cure 3 and Medica 2's superior range. Surely if you are high level, you can ensure a tag on Aspected Helios when it comes out? CU already is stronger than Asylum. You also have the added benefit of it reducing damage which Asylum can't.
I mean, have you even done some of the math and possibilities AST has and compared it to practice, and what is keeping it from getting to those things? Increase the potencies to make it match fights favorable to WHM, and they will become the weakest link no matter what the fight asks of them. You even make questionable comments on your own stuff: first you state Aspected Benefic's mana cost isn't fine for what it provides and then go on to Benefic where you say the lower mana cost of Benefic is justified because Aspected Benefic's mana cost is high. So if we decrease the manacost or increase the potency of Aspected Benefic.. is it still fine? And then in the end you decide the cards should be nerfed to compensate for the increased potencies we get, because it makes sense to homogenise us even further when half the AST community has been screaming 'we want to be different from a WHM/SCH!'?
Want some real issues? Look at:
Shuffle giving you back the same card (you did mention this one). This is one of the main card-combo killers and most ASTs know it is an absolute mood-killer. Like "getting a call from your mom during sexy time" mood-killer.
Nocturnal having really, really lackluster synergies with CO and TD compared to Diurnal. Having lower potencies is one thing, having even lower potencies because all they do is extend your shield duration (with 30s already being stupidly lenient) compared to the Diurnal counterpart actually getting more potency out of this is.. no.
CU being tied to the server timer. Having to wait for the full 3 seconds sucks, but at least you can worst-case it.
Spire being a lackluster card.
Spear being an obnoxiously hard-to-use card.
Arrow being a card capable of backfiring due to it making people eat their resources faster.
AST being a very pug-unfriendly healer thanks to no disjointed AoE heal and Aspected Helios having lower range than Medica 2. In a serious environment, that range difference should be worked around just like how you tag a Succor.
But most of all: teaching fellow AST what kind of options there truly are. AST is weird because it has a very big combo-element to it thanks to the cards, CO and TD. We started off with a horrid reputation because our potencies were lower and our abilities lackluster, our cards harder to use and less beneficial than they are now, and the first impression is always the strongest. What we need are good ASTs that show the job has potential when given the chance to shine, just like there are good WHM that show WHM can shine, but WHM has had years to do so while we are still working on the first one and in general people are afraid of stepping out of their comfort zone when they don't have to. -
11-21-2015, 12:32 PMVladyNo it's not. The whole issue is you will NOT see one white mage in any world top 5 group unless they change something drastic before 3.2. The job is really fun but sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miunih
See how easy I can insert any made up statement on the spot? Just because someone makes stuff up out of thin air does not make it true. The only reason no world first had an astro was because white mage was able to stomp curve the astrologian in the pure healing for the first two months of the raids. If new content centers around tank taking massive damage and less on hard dps checks you will see astro make a greater appearance then white mage since the astro is the best tank healer right now. -
11-21-2015, 01:03 PMMibgestaltHe's probably a bit more qualified to speak on how high end competitive raiding will go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlady
There's really no situation where Synastry does something that a WHM/SCH can't do when it comes to single target healing. Like... at the end of the day it's still bombing single target heals for heavy constant tank damage, and a lot of that simply gets wasted due to overheal. Divine Seal + PoM would do just fine in the same situation. Maybe even better given the higher frequency of heals. Higher throughput on paper doesn't mean better once the limits of actual practice are applied.
Now an even more extreme version of a situation like A1S where one healer has to heal both preys/OT might be something only an AST can do, but that probably won't happen.
I don't really agree with all of OPs changes, they seem like too much, but the point about GCD use being on the high side comparatively does feel right to me. -
11-21-2015, 01:11 PMTatoRazzino
From what I read, most people blame the AST for not being something it's not supposed to be instead of trying to understand the mechanics that account for what the AST really is. Add some misconceptions and bad reputation from the start of the expansion and the result ican be seen in this post. You may have some pretty impressive achievements, but your evaluation of the job is flawed by rhe fact that you're basically trying to turn the AST in a WHM with cards. AST is weaker than WHM in several aspects but this is so by design. For example, AzureFlare and I have discussed DPS output in another topic and our math showed that not only ASTs are not so far behind WHMs in DPS output (which is a general claim), but that if the AST was buffed even by a little in this aspect, it would make WHM look ridiculously weak since not only ASTs would be able to do over 1K dps on their own (in a pretty solid way), but they would also be able to buff their party overall DPS. If we had more MP control, we would rival with SCHs and would be able to take their spot as the best DPS off-healer. Buffing their AoE healing potency even more would make 2 AST the best combo in every single aspect. That would defeat the purpose of having more than one job in each slot and would be a terrible example of game design.
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11-21-2015, 01:19 PMTatoRazzinoThere are lots of situations in whicn Synastry make life easier, and the prey mechanic in A1S is one of those times. The challenge back when the fight was new was not healing the prey target but keeping the tank in a good state to prepare for the tank buster. ASTs have always done that easily even when Synastry didn't give a healing buff. WHMs and SCHs could do it (they had to be able to do it), but each of them had to put a little more effort into it. The point is not doing something that would be impossible to do eith the other healers; it's having multiple ways of achieving the same/similar results. Just like the three melee DPS in the game do something unique and bring utility in different levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibgestalt
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11-21-2015, 01:38 PMMibgestaltI am aware of that, I did qualify "when it comes to single target healing"! The burst split healing is one of the things it excels at. He was specifically citing AST's "tank healing", which to me means single target throughput.Quote:
Originally Posted by TatoRazzino
Edit:
And (to respond to your post about math and DPS) as much as I enjoy a good theorycraft, I'm dubious of their value, because often times it just doesn't transition in practice. Especially with something as dynamic and changing as healing, it's significantly less valuable. Not to mention relative difficulty is something that needs to be considered. If a WHM has a more direct, simpler, easier to use kit, even if the results are the same, then it's going to be played more and preferred more (though personally I don't think that's a problem that needs to be fixed).
This tier in terms of competitiveness is kind of a wash when it comes to comparisons because the state of ASTs for the first bit was bad enough that people swapped out of it, but ideally this "high DPS check" meta would have been where ASTs were preferred. However on my server, even with groups catching up, WHMs are still by and large preferred. Whether this is just stubborn thinking or indicative of a larger problem is probably up in the air for now. -
11-21-2015, 02:27 PMTatoRazzino
This is a point that has been made by a lot of people: WHM is easier. Another thing: raiding as a WHM didn't require a job learming curve, only an encounter one. People started as WHM/SCH not because the AST was bad (it was impossible to foresee that before the actual fights), but because it is always safer to use the combination you're already familiar with. The groups that used AST faced three problems: unbalanced new job, learming curve to a different healing style and encounter learming curve. Some people simply gave it up and now the job has a bad reputation. It's impossible to say what aspect was the most important, but the result is the same. Now, months later, people are still crying about a job that's perfectly fine instead of actually trying to learn it.
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11-21-2015, 02:35 PMTatoRazzinoThat was precisely our point. While a WHM can reach over 1K DPS in a dummy, while an AST may only reach 900, the AST dps toolkit is way simpler and easier to use. To reach that number, a WHM would have to weave in lots of Off-GCDs, while healing and dealing with some longer cast times. In real fights, that's not easy to do and it may mess up healing output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibgestalt
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11-21-2015, 02:51 PMMibgestaltThat's subjective, which is good of course, and if you find WHM more difficult to play optimally then I'd say Square is on the right track. I find WHM too straightforward and blunt for my tastes, and that sort of difference in opinion is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by TatoRazzino
And again, I can't speak for everyone. It's entirely possible that many people are too lazy to adapt to play AST correctly, but I also don't think it's fair to dismiss people's complaints about the playstyle/difficulty/kinks of the class as "crying instead of trying to learn it".
I'm not convinced there is some big secret to playing AST that people just haven't realized yet. I feel like the serious FFXIV players around the world can bring out the max in a class in very short order, and that there has been enough time for that at this point, yet we're still seeing people concerned. That's why I'm dubious that it's just a "L2P" issue across the board. -
11-21-2015, 03:04 PMTatoRazzino
I didn't say WHM is harder in all aspects, I said it's harder to reach high DPS numbers due to the fact that they have more off-gcd DPS skills, their combined DoT potency is lower and every single DPS move can miss. ASTs have similar potency with only two DoTs and a burst spell, and the DoTs can't miss. For the healing part, WHM is easier in my opinion.
There is no secret formula to play AST, it just requires more insight on the other jobs in order to use the cards efficiently. Browse through the forum and you'll see repeated topics about basic card strategies and lots of tips are completely misleading (e.g. spear being useless, bole being too situational etc.). Every encounter changes how cards are optimally used, so AST is a very demanding job and most people are not willing to put the required effort. Not to mention the fact that some of th complaints are like this "I can't heal The Aery" and so on. -
11-21-2015, 03:45 PMMibgestaltI guess, but I feel like it's easier to find those GCDs for DPS as a WHM. DPS isn't in a vacuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by TatoRazzino
And I don't feel the complaints about cards being situationally useful are unwarranted. I'm sure we've both drawn a card that is entirely useless at a certain point during a fight, and then shuffled into the same card, only to right click it off. This is the core mechanic of our class, but far too often it feels like it's not DOING anything. Sometimes it's ACTUALLY not doing anything (Spire in most situations), sometimes it just FEELS that way (Oh yay, the Spear, I hope the ___'s CDs are almost up), and I think that is what has people frustrated.
And I understand the "adapt on the fly" "RNG" design, it's not particularly confusing to me, but drawing a dud twice in a row isn't fun or exciting gameplay. There's no foresight or insight or strategy that can mitigate it. It's just our core mechanic being useless for 30 seconds. I think people feel like it happens too much.
Putting such a random system on a healer was gonna be rough from the beginning. For DPS a random system averages out, but for healing at the top end, where every big CD and most heals are planned in advance, having so many support buffs that you can't rely on is a tough sell. The Arrow and The Balance are the favorites because there's almost never a time where they don't do their full impact, not just because of the MAD DEEPS.
Personally I never understood why the whole mechanic wasn't tied into MP in exchange for more control over it, instead of just pressing it and hoping something good comes out, but I guess it'd be even more difficult for people to pick up in that case. -
11-21-2015, 03:56 PMLegoTechnic
The only thing I want from AST is a better mana regen mechanic.
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11-21-2015, 04:03 PMVeloxThe they would have to raise the MP costs to match WHM. Right now part of AST's MP management is the passive fact that they heal for the same potency as WHM and costs less. That's why SE didn't increase the costs when they increased the potency. So that killed 2 birds with 1 stone.That's why ASTs overall mana management is greater or equal to that of WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegoTechnic
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11-21-2015, 04:18 PMTatoRazzinoIn raid situations, cards are hardly ever useless. The Spear is always going to help MCH, BRD and NIN, and it's almost certain that your SMN or DRG has an off-GCD waiting to be used. TP and MP are welcome in almost all encounters, but that's specially true for A2S. The Bole is always well used on your MT and it helps with MP maintenance; sometimes, they can even drop their tank stance to do more DPS if they have a Bole. If you don't want to do any of those, Royal Road them and you'll have a better effect for the next card. The worst case scenarios happen once or twice in a raid night, nothing major.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibgestalt
In dungeons you won't benefit from the cards, because the RNG factor requires time to be bypassed. The thing is, you don't need all of your draws to be 100% useful to add noticeable utility and overall dps with your cards. The 3.07 buffs took care of that. If people need to see flashy numbers to know they're helping, they're going to have a hard time playing AST. WHM/SCH should be a better option for them if that's the case.
@Lego
About thde MP Regen, AzureFlare has shown that timing Celestial Opposition with Luminiferous Aether creates an effect similar to using Shroud and Assize. Other than that, you can draw Ewers and tace car of that problem. There's also the aspect that Velox mentioned. Any more buffs in this aspect would unbalance the job. -
11-21-2015, 06:07 PMMiunihThat's why we used Drk in A3/A4S World First clears, including Lucrezia as well, and most that followed. It was a totally new class, but it outclassed paladin, which was a 1.0 class. Learning a class, especially in this game, is very easy, and ast is pretty easy as well. The problem is ast does not compete with neither whm nor sch, and will still not be used in end game progression that aim to be the top 5-10. It just does not keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TatoRazzino
Funny enough, everyone everywhere whined that Drk was shit and pld was amazing, just like now when everyone says ast is fine, while in reality it's a severely underperforming class that no top group will take to progression. -
11-21-2015, 06:19 PMMiunihActually, Aspected benefic vs regen alone is like 5k mp different on a fight, why? Cause AB is 18 seconds and regen is 21 seconds (a whole global).Quote:
Originally Posted by Velox
Btw, that's 12 globals every three minutes. That's 12 Malefic II's.. That's what, 20k damage? Over a 13 minute fight that's almost 80k damage, on single target damage spells alone. Over the fight alone you'd need a maximum of 6 globals to compensate for the lack of regens on tank as well. Now no one has 100% regen uptime, so lets make that 4. Another 4 globals lost. Doesn't sound much? Well neither does that 20k wipe in week 1. Neither does the 7 minute difference between world first A1S. Neither does the actual kills that END on actual enrage (most of the kills have enrage going off, yet killing it in the nick of time). Every single global counts in progression, and that's something that AST cannot provide cause it gets behind on healing easily.
MP isn't the issue, global starvation is. We're talking about one single spell here, not even all of them, not the lack of potencies that could be converted into DPS globals as well. All added up you're literally talking about hundreds of globals you're NOT doing compared to either whm or sch. It's rather ironic for a time based class to run out of time. DS + Regen on the tank for 21 seconds, he has conva and DS runs out, another regen on him. That's like 15+21=36 seconds of power regen. Regens that completely nullify tank damage, aka, you can be in cleric doing that dps! Better healing numbers, or knowing how to manipulate/co-ordinate them, mean you can dps once again more. In this case it's Healing Potency = Globals. Less healing required, less cures required, more globals spare. This is why gear is so good.
This translates into literally everything. Assize vs Lightspeed. Lightspeed still eats globals, it just allows you to put ocgd in, assize is an ocgd already. Critlo's vs non-critable Ab's. Crits mean you spare more globals which is translated into dps/other heals. Lightspeed vs presence. Lightspeed doesn't increase globals at all, presence does. DS vs Synastry. DS is every 60 seconds vs 90 seconds. That's THREE DS instead of TWO Synastry. Healing potencies are translated into globals over time once again. Asylum vs CU. Asylum is an ocgd in the first place, it's 24 seconds, shoot and forget. CU Eats AT LEAST one global, only 15 seconds if you pulse it once, you need to MOVE into place for it. Rip all your globals.
All those things together puts ast behind. Where AST is supposed to be the quick and swift healer, it's ironically the slowest one where you spend the most time achieving the same.
All those globals translate into pure dps and raid survivability. All those globals translate into one single thing, beating that enrage timer to the second. Aside from Nisi, every fight in the game is easy and learnable in no time, which means you optimise to do the most dps to beat the enrage. AST cannot do this, and that's why AST will not be used in any hardcore endgame progression, unless SE changes something. I'm pretty sure most people do not realise at all that GCD is a resource because it doesn't have a bar. There's HP, without it you're useless, there's TP, without it you don't do dps, you're useless, There's MP, without it you start dying, there's gcd, get behind and you start dying/lose dps. Ast has all but the latter one.
Also, note that using an ewer on yourself would beat the purpose of bringing an ast in the first place, you bring them for dps buffs ^.^ -
11-21-2015, 06:42 PMDarkmoonVael
Quite a lot of these suggestions are "make it exactly the same as whm and sch ability". If this is the case, then AST other abilities would need to be weakened. Balance isnt give AST the things that makes SCH and WHM unique + much more.
A.Benefic in Diurnal has an initial heal unlike regen which is when the regen doesn't last as long as WHM regen. The base shield of nocturnal is slightly higher than Adlo and is instant cast, it does not need, nor should get, Adlo's unique trait.
With collective unconscious i dont think you understand how powerful this ability is especially compared to sacred soil and asylum. With CU you get both damage mitigation and a stupidly powerful regen in one. Its a little hard to be able to use properly, but thats not an issue considering the power you get from it. Sacred soil you say has no drawbacks, this is entirely incorrect. Part of the skill of SCH comes from utilising your aetherflow stacks correctly, sacred soil used a stack which can also be used for lustrate, indom and energy drain, and usually these three are a higher priority than sacred soil in raids, except for a few niche circumstances. Asylum compliments the WHM toolset and is not as powerful as CU. CU in its current form has to have some form of skill tester to be able to use, and in this case its rooted to the spot.
Synastry is currently the most powerful healing cooldown in the game, it needs no buffs and no changes. This is the one ability that really makes AST shine when used correctly.
Lightspeed and LA interact with Celestial opposition. Any buffs to their duration would make them highly highly broken without Celestial Opposition nerf.
Stella is broken as hell in your suggested changes. Only one ranged class in the entire game has a stun, MCH, and that has to be done from melee range and is on a long cooldown. A ranged healer with a ranged stun breaks a lot of the game.
Give AST combust 3, nerf its card beyond comprehension. Its simple, really really simple. AST is currently balanced around its own personal contribution to dps and its cards contribution via buffing others. Give them more personal dps, nerf their cards. This is called balance.
All in all, these suggestions are not balanced in the slightest. It doesnt bring AST inline with WHM or SCH but instead makes them into a stupidly, absurdly powerful class. -
11-21-2015, 06:51 PMRyan2714
Few things i like to change about ast, but think ast is doing ok atm
Stella : i would like if this skill have more effective like
_Become an instant cast skill with bind and heavy effect (10s/15s), also increase the potency to 150 and add 30s cooldown
Or
_Become an instant cast skill with potency of 100, but increase to 300 if target have a combust and combust II effect (100 for each effect), also create a super nova deal 1/2 of the damage to nearby emenies and stun them for 4s if use on a target have both the combust effect, also have 30s cooldown.
Gravity:
_keep everything the same as before, just add a 5% slow effect for 4s
Or
_Grant a gravity stack of 5 stacks max, each stack increase the damage by 10% and decrease the castime but also increase the mp cost. -
11-21-2015, 06:52 PMRyan2714
Celestial Opposition: Keep everything the same but will be nice if
_Decrease the cooldown
Or
_Add a unaspected damage with a potency of 300
Or better
__Add a unaspected damage with a potency of 200 and have a addittional effect depend on the held card, or the effect of the card buff ( held card check 1st)
_ Balance : increase the damage potency to 350
_ Arrow : add a cure potency of 300
_ Spear : increase the stun durration from 4s to 6s
_ Bole : create a shield equal to 15% max HP
_ Ewer : Restore 10%-15% of max mp
_ Spire : Reduces enmity by half -
11-21-2015, 08:12 PMCressidia
I Would like to have some suggest
For healing Spell :
1/ Make the card Party buff while lower it to 50 % , it will take care some rng issue , the rest of royal road will extended duration or potency buff.
2/Make Shuffle not give the same card
3/Nocturne sec may turn into an ability which trade regen for shield in 20s
4/ Can cast spell in CU but the effect end if moving
5/ CO should have add healing potency and lower CD to 90s
6/Proc benefic II : instant and reduce mp cost by 20 %
For offensive spell:
1/Stella Leave Dot
2/Gravity have some additional effect like Slow or paralyze. -
11-21-2015, 08:15 PMNovaAshontia
I main a AST and I love it how it is but just as you mention, MP managment and the ability to DPS without wasting the precious mana pool of an Astrologian, as well as a stronger Noc Sect and shielding. Its a kinda 'I love to eat it but hate the aftertaste' thing with AST and by fixing those 3 things it could be on par with the other two healers. AST's biggest strength is it's Raid Utility, but its utility is worthless since no one wants them to be used in Savage or in any progression whatsoever. SE FIX THIS PLEASE!
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11-21-2015, 09:23 PMAzureFlareAnd this is exactly why AST isn't used heavily in the low/midcore. Everyone is literally tunneling on the DPS cards. We all know savage was an utter DPS-check infested hole, but come off it already. You use Ewer on yourself and use the mana you get to DPS more yourself. You use Bole to save mana and switch that mana back into damage. It isn't as efficient as Balance or Arrow, but that's the whole point of the design, you cook a dish with the ingredients you get. If you don't know how to cook a vegetarian dish and only want meat, well too bad. Surely if you can draw 18 cards in a fight, you can give yourself an Ewer a single time to make up mana differences? Or play that AoE Balance and decide not to DPS because you know that will increase your DPS contribution more than the WHM can dish out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miunih
Aspected Benefic's total potency is 1030 for a manacost of 707. Regen's total potency is 1050 for 618 manacost. Regen's potency per minute is 3000, Aspected Benefic's potency per minute is 3433.33. That's more than a whole Cure in difference. For 60 seconds, you need 2.86 regens or 3.33 Aspected Benefics. That's 1767.48 mana for regen, 2354.41 for Aspected Benefic. Factor in that cure, you get 2209.47 mana for the WHM to spend. 145 mana each minute and the WHM has to make up the potency difference with a global. Does that sound so bad?
**LATE EDIT**: For whoever reads this, I decided after a Reddit post to recheck my math. Since you can do the math on your own above (add 1 cure to 2.86 regens, 3.86 casts vs 3.33 casts) it isn't a huge thing, but Aspected Benefic saves you 12-13 globals on 21 minutes (converging point of both Regen and AB) at the cost of 2287 mana after factoring in the difference in cures. All things considered that's not a bad tradeoff at all.
No one will disagree with you, we have a GCD problem and they could tackle a few things in this department, but increasing potencies as a whole is not the way to go. If we get encounters that really push for MP, where MP is the limiting factor rather than GCD, AST will be a lot better. Heck, if you want to tackle GCD problems, suggest things like "Lightspeed now gives you 5 stacks of the buff. You lose one stack per cast. As long as the buff is intact, spells will cost 25% less mana, decrease in cast time by 2.5s, reduce the global recast time by 1.25s (or even lower) and reduce damage from offensive spells casted by 25%". Lost its interaction with CO, but the exact same mana-saving utility, cast time reduction utility and makes you pay for trying to be offensive on the move. Only doesn't factor in spellspeed anymore.
Another one: "Enhanced Benefic: Benefic has a 15% chance of making Benefic 2 instant and not trigger the global cooldown." A trait with a backfirish element now saves you globals and no longer backfires on you. Hurray.
And something that seems to be ignored. If SE designs a fight where this
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...ivine_seal.png
followed by this
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im.../Medica_ii.png
is possible every single time without overhealing in abundance, then of course WHM is going to pull ahead. That's not an issue with AST, that's an issue with fights being catered to WHM. That is a real design issue. And that scenario happens a lot. -
11-21-2015, 10:08 PMAzureFlareIt definitely isn't just a L2P issue, but it does play a big part. But you can't simply tune AST to be more like WHM. If a fight is designed to be able to be single-target healed fairly easily with just Cure and Cure 2, while having large AoE damage come out, then Divine Seal will always win over Synastry because Synastry doesn't carry over AoE heals or regen heals, doesn't boost them as high as Divine Seal and is on a longer cooldown. If you design a fight where dualhealing is king, let's say something like Skyward Leaps during Thordan ex, then Synastry is favorable over Divine Seal since Synastry is more powerful and more bursty. And whoever says 'just combine DS and PoM', PoM has a cooldown 2 and a half minute and you burned two cooldowns just for one mechanic. If that mechanic returns after 90 seconds, you can't use Divine Seal in between to save mana over the AST and you're going to spam costy Cure 2s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibgestalt
Going to play devil's advocate really badly here: try PvP as a healer and see how different it is. Ignore the players for a bit and pretend it is the environment that is facing you instead. Seize Rock on EU/NA data centers in general are ideal for this, since most people are very unorganized. Suddenly, the healers are a lot closer and Nocturnal AST is one of the best healers if not the best healer. And then you compare it to savage and see what aspects of PvP will probably never be used as a mechanic in PvE, and why Nocturnal AST can't shine in its current form in PvE but could shine in the future, or what changes should be made for it to shine. PvP as a whole is really good at this since players get creative, wacky and out of control and show what possibilities a job truly has. -
11-22-2015, 12:08 AMTatoRazzinoIt took a while to see those clears and the reason they took DRK to those fights is DPS output. A3S and A4S were built with massive magic damage, which makes a PLD pretty much useless in there. In fact, the general consensus is that DRK is overpowered in relation to PLD. DRK is an unbalanced job that can perform as well as PLD in defense and is better in offense (or so people say). The unique aspects of PLD were made useless by the way people are organizimg their strategies. A person with so much raid experience should know this by now, but it seems that you're ignorant to the fact that a hybrid job can easily become overpowered to the point where it takes the place of the specialized job. That happened to PLDs and can happen to WHM. I'll stop this discussion since you're not here to discuss anything, but to support absurd game design to match your desires (you want to play WHM, but AST is prettier, cooler etc.). You blab so much about GCDs and ignores the attack speed buff that ASTs get in Diurnal, ignores the fact that Synastry is a GCD saver, ignores the fact that AST takes less GCDs to apply DoTs with combined potencies higher than the WHM ones (which can all miss by the way). Another thing you ignore: this game has more than raiding, and some spells/stances were build with other things in mind (E.g. Swiftsong, Fists of Wind, Fists of Earth, Feint, take your pick)Quote:
Originally Posted by Miunih
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11-22-2015, 12:56 AMAzureFlare
Just going to chip in a little more.
World first clear was registered as the 23rd of August. The 3.07 patchnotes that balanced AST potencies (and rather, helped the cards be more useful as well as help its cooldowns be more useful) were released on the 25th of August. Everyone knew AST would not be a world-first competitive class in the state it was released, heck you couldn't even have possibly cleared world first with the new AST, so why are we even discussing this? Surely if you participated in the world first/second clears, you'd know what was and wasn't possible?
Dark Knight had a solemn advantage because the cooldowns lined up better, it made MNK obsolete (who was already being outperformed by both NIN and DRG in contribution) and it did more damage than PLD to boot. Back on the tank forums, people are already guessing DRK will sink like a brick the moment we go back to physical-heavy encounters, and I'm inclined to agree now that PLD got a small DPS boost with Shield Swipe becoming OGCD. Or maybe the new LB rules will make double WAR the godcomp, since they don't even care about what type of damage except for Raw Intuition and Foresight? -
11-22-2015, 02:33 AMMibgestaltQuote:
Originally Posted by AzureFlare
Again, I was responding to one guy who said that AST was "the best tank healer", to highlight the dubiousness of that claim when it comes to Synastry. I actually mentioned that the split healing was the strongest, so I dunno why you're repeating this. I said that combining PoM and DS would arguably make WHM stronger for burst tank healing, not that you should do it all willy nilly.
And anyways, I've never said that I want AST brought closer in line to WHM in terms of healing. I am actually fairly content with our healing, though I feel like it demands more of the AST and PUG groups for slightly weaker results.
I'd just like more strategic control over our cards. Spire is flat out useless on, say, A1S unless someone dies. Just because you CAN throw a Bole on a tank at any given moment doesn't mean it's particularly effective. Diurnal AB + Fairy was already keeping him topped off in DPS stance during this low damage phase, did it do something? Sure. Did it do something HELPFUL? Ehhhhhh. I'm not asking to get Balance on every draw either. Just more skill-based control. My dream would be some kind of compounding mana cost on Shuffle to put the whole system at a risk/reward tug with MP, but something as simple as being able to Royal Road your spread card, or giving Celestial Opposition some interaction with card draws would probably be enough.
Mrs. Devil, I PVP all the time, and don't think most of the experience is really transferable to PVE. AST isn't just the strongest healer there, they are downright broken. The damage randomness and burst and CC all factor together to make a situation that other healers actually CAN NOT keep people or themselves alive in situations where the AST can, a situation which we both know would never see the light of day in a raid. It's only because it's instant, barely telegraphed life or death with constant threat of interruption that Noct Benefic shines, and they can't put that in PVE because WHM and SCH would have ZERO chance. You're comparing apples and oranges when it comes to design. Not to mention that Mana Draw, Retrogradation, Aetheric Burst, kiting, and actually being able to stun incoming damage does A LOT to alleviate traditional healing concerns. All of those things aren't available in PVE. -
11-22-2015, 02:35 AMLegoTechnic
Here's a thought I had. For me the biggest detriment to AST is its mana regen, or rather its utter lack thereof. Especially in Noct stance when pretending to be a SCH only having a single shroud mechanic is very limiting. Sure there's ewer, but RNG is the last thing you want with mana regen.
Why not let us discard a recently drawn card for an immediate amount of mana, similar to how aetherize works? Even if just a small amount it's a move both with cost and balance (you lose your active card), it uses the class's primary feature (cards), and in the event that you shuffle a Spear and draw... another Spear... it would at least keep you from sighing. Also the wince from having to discard a Balance would be equivalent to a SCH using Dissipation, and therefore right up design's alley! -
11-22-2015, 03:09 AMAzureFlareNot everything I said was in direct response to you, given it did seem that way. My apologies for the confusion. What I meant to illustrate, which both you, me and others have mentioned a plentora of times on the forums, is that all healers have abilities that are best suited to different situations and that naturally escalates in the whole performance. I used your line as a base for that, since while I do believe that people are asking for buffs that can be solved by looking at different interactions within the job, it isn't the sole reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mibgestalt
Just like you state, if AB + Fairy keep up the tank then there isn't a whole lot of use for Bole. But others like me would argue whether that situation happens too much or not, and whether it is the problem of the raid's design instead of a problem with the cards. A bit more control would be nice, but amongst ASTs there is a lot of discussion whether we want to be subjected to RNG, and to what degree.
And why shouldn't we compare apples with oranges when it comes to design? I'll sidestep the whole PvP healer debate since it will derail the thread, but why shouldn't we be able to use more CC in PvE, or worry about interruptions, or kiting? We don't have to do it as extreme as PvP, but we can take elements from it, tune them and apply them in PvE to spice it up. I mean come on, even the average SNES game has more randomness than savage does, and Nocturnal is great at alleviating mechanical setbacks due to its instant nature. -
11-22-2015, 03:37 AMMibgestaltI don't think some RNG is awful, it's entirely possible that I just get very unlucky when I feel I need it most, or don't notice the times I do pull the perfect card as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureFlare
It could very well be a raid design problem. I'm a healer at heart, so I'd love a meta where I get to mostly heal, or a fight where if I draw Bole it's noticeably useful 90% of the time. Hopefully it goes in that direction next patch so we can see.
And yeah I totally agree on wanting to see MORE mechanics like that in PVE. I'd love to see tons of creative mechanics in PVE, and more encounters in general. I just feel like Square plays it very safe with mechanics when it comes to PVE, whether it's because of small development team size or whatever, so I don't think we will for a very long time. New encounter mechanics are few and far between in this game. So I don't think it's bad to discuss, but I'm not holding my breath on seeing truly unique things here either, which is why I'm not sure we can hope that it will remedy certain class design disparities.