So I just had a simple idea that could help PLD keep its ground when it comes to AoE enmity generation, without really changing how the job functions (even though I believe the job does need a bit of an overhaul).
What if, in Shield Oath only, Paladins/Knights generated enmity with a mob whenever they blocked an attack, based on block percentage?
Right now, our weakest point is AoE enmity generation--but with this change, as long as we initiate the pull correctly and have mobs hitting us physically, we'd be able to hold them without too much effort. It would also add another level of optional complexity to the gearing game, by making the choice between Buckler/Kite/Scutum more worthwhile again.
Thoughts?
PLD Enmity Fix: Enmity on Block?
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11-13-2015, 10:59 PMJpec07PLD Enmity Fix: Enmity on Block?
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11-13-2015, 11:11 PMFreyyy
The base idea is neat but it wouldn't change anything against magic-based enemies and would on the contrary give PLD an incredible edge on physical-heavy fights with a fast-hitting boss. The threat generation of a tank shouldn't vary depending on the encounter IMO.
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11-14-2015, 01:13 AMJpec07Well of course it would need to be tuned. My thought is that the enmity gains would be set to be just high enough to make PLD competitive enmity-wise with DRK or WAR while tanking mobs (that deal mostly physical damage), and would allow PLD to keep up on bosses that deal physical attacks. They'd still lag behind a little on magic damage and casting enemies, but the amount of purely magic-based trash mobs is extremely low (I can only think of a few instances where the entire pull does magic damage). Just a thought, though. It wouldn't do anything to PLD gameplay, and would address our AoE enmity issues fairly nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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11-14-2015, 01:16 AMFreyyy
The solution would just be instead of increasing threat upon blocking, increase threat upon receiving damage.
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11-14-2015, 01:33 AMKenji1134Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Back in EQ2, think it was EQ2...
One of the tanks was Guardian, which had a toggled buff wherein every time they took damage, they generated X enmity on whoever dealt that damage to them, where X scaled with their stats.
This was at times a bit broken as a sufficiently large gear discrepancy meant that this "passive" on-hit hate generate was greater than that of the dps (again given a large gear discrepancy).
Anyway, one way the make something like this work in XIV would be to simply tack it onto the defensive stance of each tank, perhaps with a slightly different baseline potency to balance things out.
So PLD which has minimal self damage buffs may generate 100 potency per hit taken.
DRK which often has a 15% damage buff active would generate 85 potency per hit.
And WAR with Main's 20% would generate 80. These are ballpark numbers but the general idea holds.
If nothing else it is something to help mitigate the increasing potency value difference between tanks and dps as ilvl increases... basically the reason tank stance enmity modifiers went from 2.0x to 2.3x in HW.
Guess we'll see how things look after the "tank damage calculation modifications". -
11-14-2015, 04:08 AMStephane4985
I like the idea of generating enmity on block. I mean, one of the thing that set pld apart is that we have a shield, but right now, it doesn't really do anything except for the look. This cool be a good idea to help with enmity and give some flavor to the pld.
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11-14-2015, 04:21 AMJandor
I could maybe see it as an additional effect from Bulwark or something. As a permanent passive it might be to strong, and certainly not very interesting.
EDIT: Wait, why does it say Gladiator next to me and Paladin next to others? -
11-14-2015, 04:22 AMKosmos992k
Instead of doing this, increase the emnity gain for Shield swipe and make it a frontal cone attack with a short-medium range of effect. Shield swipe procs with a block, so it achieves the same end. Drop the potency a bit since the attack is striking multiple enemies, but boost the Emnity, and leave it as an off GCD ability that doesn't interrupt a combo.
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11-14-2015, 04:32 AMJandorYou know, for some reason, I thought they had changed it to be a frontal cone attack up until a few days ago when I decided I wasn't sure and checked the tool-tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmos992k
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11-14-2015, 05:06 AMLaunched
PLD really doesn't have aoe enmity problems. Flash and Circle of Scorn are more than enough. After a couple of Flashes you can apply Circle of Scorn with FoF, then rotate Goring on multiple enemies (unless you're undergeared and in full VIT for some reason). You want to use Flash later again anyway for the blind.
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11-14-2015, 05:07 AMKosmos992kYou can change it in your profile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Open the Edit Profile screen, and choose Edit Character. You can choose 3 of your jobs/classes. The first one you choose (going left to right) is what is used to indicate your "main class". You'll get a drop down list with the job/class icons and what level you are at each. -
11-14-2015, 05:13 AMJandor
Oh cool, thank you.
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11-14-2015, 05:53 AMJpec07My 162 DRK can hold aggro off 200+ BLM-SMN DPS in Fractal Continuum and Neverreap with no problems, just through normal play. My 198 PLD cannot, through normal play. Even weaving flashes in, even FoFing my CoS, even rotating enmity combos onto different mobs, even in full slaying, PLD still fails to hold aggro. PLD enmity generation is the lowest of the three anyway, and might as well not be a tank for how little AoE we can put out. Point being, yes, PLD absolutely does need an enmity boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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11-14-2015, 10:50 AMCallidusSounds like something is wrong there then. I only ever use Halone on trash if something has gone pretty significantly wrong or I reaaally want that debuff for some reason. Spam a bit of Flash, FoF CoS if you have it, and then apply Goring on everything while keeping your first 2 steps of the combo plus Spirits and now Swipe on whatever mobs are taking the most damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Sure you might lose a mob here or there on different pulls if you anticipate poorly where the most threat will be, but I find that happens to me most when I'm spreading the enmity out for a good SNM and have neglected enough single target threat on whatever the geared out MNK or DRG is hitting. I don't think I've been just outright unable to keep a pack off of a SNM or BLM without there being a good 30+ iLVL gap or some other extenuating circumstances (death/rez and no MP, etc). Admittedly, you have to sit there like a goof spamming flash more than you'd like whereas your WAR or DRK will actually be putting down some nice DPS *and* pulling more threat, but it's not that hard to keep trash off of a DPS in my experience.
Our AoE DPS and MT DPS are where our biggest problems are at this point, IMO. Our AoE enmity isn't anything to write home about, but is sufficient to keep ahead of DPS even if doing so guts our already inferior damage output. For that matter, our single target enmity is in the same boat. -
11-14-2015, 02:21 PMvedanforlife
Here's how I would fix PLD's emnity/dps issues:
1) Move Royal Authority to a 4th combo on both RoH and Goring Blade. Lower damage but gain emnity in Shield Oath and more DPS in Sword Oath. It makes zero sense that their last skill learned at 60 is not based off of both of their combo effects.
2) Change Goring Blade to a frontal AOE cone and remove the DoT effect. Hell, change the name to Goring Blades if you need to, but PLD desperately needs something to help with their AOE threat. Flash and CoS aren't cutting it. Or: change the effect to an AOE in Shield Oath, and a DoT in Sword Oath.
3) Reduce TP costs while in Sword Oath. If PLD isn't going to have anything but an auto-attack then reduce it since the other two tanks have vastly easier times managing their TP than PLD does.
Paladin isn't a bad class, and their TP issues still suck, but as long as damage is king in higher end raids, the other two tanks will always leave them behind until gear can catch up.