LB 3.1 changes are unfair to established teams.

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Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:

The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly than before for parties with three or more members of the same role.

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source here

BRD, MCH, BLM and SMN are all lumped in as "ranged DPS" under this new rule, even though BRD/MCH and BLM/SMN fill different functional roles and have different LB's. Existing static teams have had no reason not to have 3 ranged players until now, and raids are beatable with these compositions.

This change punishes teams for previously valid compositions and forces players to switch roles or lose spots on their teams. I think it's an unfair and unnecessary change.

Punish? LBs are so heavily underutilized that you can pretty much win 99% of fights without ever needing them. If you really feel like you have to switch roles just to have LBs fill up sooner, then methinks your team needs better coordination.

Pretty sure the dps loss from not using 2 melee is greater than the loss from the potential LB change.
So your probably already doing it wrong.

I'm sure there's a difference between ranged and casters. The patch notes are just preliminary so quit your butt hurt whining

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

I'm sure there's a difference between ranged and casters. The patch notes are just preliminary so quit your butt hurt whining

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The patch notes specifically lumped both casters and physical ranged as "ranged dps", buuuut

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Originally Posted by Staris

Pretty sure the dps loss from not using 2 melee is greater than the loss from the potential LB change.
So your probably already doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Punish? LBs are so heavily underutilized that you can pretty much win 99% of fights without ever needing them. If you really feel like you have to switch roles just to have LBs fill up sooner, then methinks your team needs better coordination.

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If you're using only 1 melee , you're doing it wrong. Thank you and good day.

??? What are these replies even?

People use different compositions because the people they play with want to play certain jobs. Before I quit raiding, my static consisted of BLM/SMN/BRD so we would've been hit with this nerf as well. Why did it consist of those? Because it's what they wanted to play, and it was fine and perfectly viable until this change. It's legitimately completely unnecessary, all they have to do to fix it is separate BRD/MCH from SMN/BLM. It's not like that composition is OP in any way, as stated in this very thread double melee is stronger.

uh, probably a tactic against solo tank and solo heal. because if you exchange one tank or heal for an DD you will have 3 DDs of the same role.

can't see any other reason, but it doesn't sound like my idea will work like this xD 5 DDs > LB

Hmm that brings up a good point though. What are they gunna do about solo tank raids like WOD and the up coming void arc? One tank, two heals, and 5 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Rhodkr

Hmm that brings up a good point though. What are they gunna do about solo tank raids like WOD and the up coming void arc? One tank, two heals, and 5 DPS.

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The patch notes says Dungeons and Trials.

Void Ark is a Raid

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Originally Posted by Tint

uh, probably a tactic against solo tank and solo heal. because if you exchange one tank or heal for an DD you will have 3 DDs of the same role.

can't see any other reason, but it doesn't sound like my idea will work like this xD 5 DDs > LB

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Good point, with this. This is probably the real answer.

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

The patch notes says Dungeons and Trials.

Void Ark is a Raid

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So with that that logic, a party could be hit with this nerf in Thordan's Reign, but not in Alex Savage?

I was sure there was something in the prepatch notes which says this would only affect duties which can't be accessed with dutyfinder. For all other duties the penality would be removed. Did i read something wrong?

OP does make a fairly good point. While its not the case for my group right now, thru second and final coil my groups setup was PLD-WAR DRG BRD-SMN-BLM WHM-SCH. SMN is a great job to have for Dot and support for battle raises without sacrificing the healer's time/mp on the tank(s) in case something happens. While BLM is just a great burst damage job. While SMN is now king of AoE damage, That title was BLM's.

Errr.. I'm sidetracking. Yea, there are some groups that roll dual casters, and bard/mch is pretty much a standard spot in all groups. Now its in a way forcing us to use two melee instead of giving the option to give two melee or two casters. Regardless of which setup is superior, its still an attempt at forcing party makeups.

OP here, just poking in for a response to "you should have 2 melee DPS because reasons" arguments.

In terms of min maxing for teams trying to get world first, two melee is probably ideal. This topic isn't about that.

Not all teams care about world firsts. Some teams are just getting started, and their FC happened to have three ranged DPS players so that's what they use. Up until this change was announced, there was no reason this team was "invalid" or "unbalanced"; with a little extra gear and practice, they could overcome the slightly lower DPS output of their chosen party makeup without undue problems. For these kind of beginner teams, limit break is the difference between getting an A2 kill or having to grind for another couple of weeks to squeak out the DPS.

Keeping a new static together is hard, I know from being my team's raid leader. This kind of arbitrary enforcement of the dev's ideal party makes forming teams even harder, which isn't what our community needs.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

So with that that logic, a party could be hit with this nerf in Thordan's Reign, but not in Alex Savage?

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"Dungeons and trials accessible solo via the Duty Finder:" Multiple job nerf removed
"Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:" This is where the nerf hits

So it hits top level raids for ~6 months, and extreme trials for ~3 months.

Hey everyone,

During the Japanese patch note reading, Yoshi-P mentioned that there has been a lot of feedback since the release of the preliminary patch notes, and he has been discussing this with the development team. As a result, they have decided to remove this feature and revert the system back to how it was originally. This will be done in a hotfix as early as possible.

This feature was originally intended to be added to allow more players with different jobs to be able to participate in end-game content, as well as keep the job setup to 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS. However, they are aware that there are still many groups challenging Alexander (Savage) with their current groups, and also know how difficult it is to currently make a group for this content. Due to this, they will be fleshing out the feature a bit more, and plan to add it back in Patch 3.2.

We apologize for any issues this may cause your groups and ask you to please wait patiently until the hotfix for this to be reverted back.

inb4 "Limit Break will not charge if there is not two tanks, two healers. any DD selection is fine."

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Originally Posted by Phafi

inb4 "Limit Break will not charge if there is not two tanks, two healers. any DD selection is fine."

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Then LB wouldn't fill in Alliance Raids like Void Ark lol

So a hotfix to remove this change and then coming back in 3.2 with the adjustments. Hrmm....

I'd like to add since almost everyone seems to be reading it wrong ...

This only affects content you must queue as a team.
Anything you can queue solo in the DF for (which is practically everything listed in this thread) does not use this LB change rule.

Can anyone name a dungeon or trial you must form a group before entering?
If it is legitimately not including Raids, the only thing I can think of is Thordan.
Everything else you can queue solo (as of 3.1).

If it does include Raids (though that isn't stated) this only applies to Thordan and Savage.
Everything else you can queue solo.

If people actually read and comprehended the words written, rather than inferring things that weren't written, we'd have way less panic outbursts during patches. Just read what it says and then ask yourself how this even effects you. What pre-made team strategies could you possibly have for content you've never even done? I'm pretty sure it can't possibly include a LB since it's not out until tomorrow.

It's pretty likely that King Thordan strategies will at least include a limit break, it's not unreasonable to be concerned about it. Being as these changes were likely targeted at end game raids to discourage single healer/single tank strategies, it's not unreasonable to think they will affect Alexander Savage as well, even though it's arbitrarily not classed as a trial.

These instances encompass the hardest content in the game, and generally requires the concerted effort of a static raid team to beat, hence the concern for teams that were established with three ranged players before this change was announced.

I'm glad the devs have responded to this issue. Delaying the changes to 3.2 and announcing them in advance will at least allow teams time to adjust their composition if needed. Thanks for the update, Zhexos.

Actually I was just reading in the other thread that the JP translation does indicate Alex (Savage) [and thus Raid content] is included in the list of content this affects, so the TC has a valid complaint. Still the only things this change affects (as I mentioned) are Savage and Thordan.

My point about Thordan is -there is no strategy yet- so if the LB factors into it then you can create the necessary team adjustments to clear it. You can't whine that this change affects "your strategy and team setup" for content that doesn't exist yet. However, that said, it does (apparently) affect Savage. I meant to put in my post "It wouldn't be the first time the patch notes were inaccurate, but we have to take it at face value" but opted not to say that.

Apparently, they are inaccurate and Savage teams will in fact be affected by this change. That is a bummer.

People already do have team setups for Thordan though, in that they have static raid groups where each member has a favored job. If my team had three ranged DPS players, i'd feel bummed telling one of the casters they have to switch to melee DPS all of the sudden for Thordan, especially if said players don't enjoy or haven't leveled a melee DPS.

This would be less of an issue if the changes had been announced in advance, but we learned about them only a few days before the patch came out, which isn't enough time for someone to get a new job to 60, gear it and learn to play it in a worst case scenario.

Fortunately it's all a null issue for now being as we'll probably get hotfixed within a day or two. We'll have to see what the 3.2 changes will look like specifically before we can accomplish any more rabble rousing. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Katsu78

Then LB wouldn't fill in Alliance Raids like Void Ark lol

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I'd assume they would keep this "feature" for content that is not solo queued, as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Hey everyone,

During the Japanese patch note reading, Yoshi-P mentioned that there has been a lot of feedback since the release of the preliminary patch notes, and he has been discussing this with the development team. As a result, they have decided to remove this feature and revert the system back to how it was originally. This will be done in a hotfix as early as possible.

This feature was originally intended to be added to allow more players with different jobs to be able to participate in end-game content, as well as keep the job setup to 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS. However, they are aware that there are still many groups challenging Alexander (Savage) with their current groups, and also know how difficult it is to currently make a group for this content. Due to this, they will be fleshing out the feature a bit more, and plan to add it back in Patch 3.2.

We apologize for any issues this may cause your groups and ask you to please wait patiently until the hotfix for this to be reverted back.

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It wasn't all that bad, the only real issue I saw was that "Ranged" and "Caster" classes (Who have two different Limit Breaks) were under the same category. That seemed to be the majority of the backlash I was seeing.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

This feature was originally intended to be added to allow more players with different jobs to be able to participate in end-game content, as well as keep the job setup to 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS.

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This is bs, we all know 2 melee 1 support 1 caster is already the most common setup, this was totally unnecessary to begin with.
The only reason to implement such a stupid feature is so that when you guys develop a content that doesn't work for a 3 ranged/melee party you can say "well you guys chose to gimp yourselves with a composition we don't approve so that's on you".

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

It wasn't all that bad, the only real issue I saw was that "Ranged" and "Caster" classes (Who have two different Limit Breaks) were under the same category. That seemed to be the majority of the backlash I was seeing.

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Yeah, I agree. Although to me it's not so much that their Limit Breaks are different. It's that Ranged and Caster really are different roles from my perspective. Ranged does a little less DPS than Caster for a little bit of support and deals with movement more easily, while Caster is about dealing some of the best AoE damage and can DPS forever unlike a TP user. To me those perks set BRD & MCH and BLM & SMN well apart from each other. It's very worrying and distressing to see the devs honestly thinking all 4 of those Jobs are the same role and considered treating them as such.

I feel like this is a poor bandaid over the problem that the raid design is problematic to begin with. So now we're going to have people switching jobs to maybe something they don't like as much just to avoid a penalty that really shouldn't exist.

Greetings,

Thanks for your patience as the development team reworked the changes to the Limit Break charge rate.

In Patch 3.2, we're planning to make the following adjustments to the rate in which the Limit Break gauge accumulates.

Content which utilizes the Duty Finder matching.

Regardless of the party composition, the accumulation rate will always be constant.

Content which does not utilize the Duty Finder matching.
(Content such as Alexander: Midas (Savage))

Under the below conditions, the Limit Break gauge will accumulate at a slower rate:

• When there are 3 or more Tank class/jobs.
• When there are 5 or more DPS class/jobs.
• When there are 3 or more Healer class/jobs.
• When there are 2 or more of the same class/jobs.

Thank you Zhex!

So those earlier in the thread who were speculating that this was a (somewhat misguided) attempt to limit solo-heal and solo-tank comps, you were right. That purpose is still being achieved: basically you have to be solo-heal/solo-tank in order to have 3 tanks, 3 healers or 5 DPS. However, this no longer punishes triple melee or triple ranged comps, since it doesn't lock you in to 2/2/2/2. The only restriction is you cannot have two of the same job, which is in keeping with the spirit of the change: to promote job diversity in raids. If solo heals/tanking because standard, healers and tanks would be under TIGHT competition to access savage raids. Similarly, if (hypothetically) two Scholars became the norm, WHM and AST mains would be SOL. This way, the system encourages people of all jobs having a place in the static.

I like it!

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

In Patch 3.2, we're planning to make the following adjustments to the rate in which the Limit Break gauge accumulates.

Content which utilizes the Duty Finder matching.

Regardless of the party composition, the accumulation rate will always be constant.

Content which does not utilize the Duty Finder matching.
(Content such as Alexander: Midas (Savage))

Under the below conditions, the Limit Break gauge will accumulate at a slower rate:

• When there are 3 or more Tank class/jobs.
• When there are 5 or more DPS class/jobs.
• When there are 3 or more Healer class/jobs.
• When there are 2 or more of the same class/jobs.

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That sounds like a winner to me. Hopefully Midas Savage will be calibrated appropriately where this won't cause a difficulty imbalance Like Gordias Savage had.

hmmm interesting, kinda disappointing that it doesn't open up for experimental group combinations and basically makes a Square Hole for a Square peg. But good to know how LBs will build.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,

Thanks for your patience as the development team reworked the changes to the Limit Break charge rate.

In Patch 3.2, we're planning to make the following adjustments to the rate in which the Limit Break gauge accumulates.

Content which utilizes the Duty Finder matching.

Regardless of the party composition, the accumulation rate will always be constant.

Content which does not utilize the Duty Finder matching.
(Content such as Alexander: Midas (Savage))

Under the below conditions, the Limit Break gauge will accumulate at a slower rate:

• When there are 3 or more Tank class/jobs.
• When there are 5 or more DPS class/jobs.
• When there are 3 or more Healer class/jobs.
• When there are 2 or more of the same class/jobs.

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RIP solo healing

why not just let ppl do whatever comp they want regardless? just because ppl would attempt crazy comps?

I dont understand why force us into "perfect setups". If they clear with 4 drgs or 4 bards, its their merit, by doing this SQEX just hinders people to follow strict matchups where shouldnt be needed.

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Originally Posted by Escha

RIP solo healing

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and solo tanking, thinking on those who cleared T5 back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Escha

RIP solo healing

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A whole extra dps is going to do more damage than whatever the difference in accumulation rate drops to... Not like they are getting rid of lb altogether.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

A whole extra dps is going to do more damage than whatever the difference in accumulation rate drops to... Not like they are getting rid of lb altogether.

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Not so bad for DPS, but if we get another turn like T13 where we need tank LB. Then good game for anyone that wants to try solo heal or tank.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

Not so bad for DPS, but if we get another turn like T13 where we need tank LB. Then good game for anyone that wants to try solo heal or tank.

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It's a tradeoff... You either go with a diversified composition and get normal LB rate, or you try to win with stacking and lower LB rate.

That last bullet point is actually how the game works now since 2.1, and I haven't noticed a severe drop in Limit Break accumulation with repeat jobs. So if a fight appears to require Limit Break, then I don't think it'll be impossible to still do it with 1 tank or 1 healer (for Limit Break-related reasons) because I don't think the reduction will be very high if the current reduction incurred by repeat jobs is anything to go by.

Therefore, this properly normalizes things because Limit Break is never needed outside of a couple very specific times in ARR. Gameplay-wise, Limit Break is a helpful aid (or "crutch," to be negative) if you're greatly challenged by the encounter, or if you're farming, it merely finishes it 5-20 seconds sooner. In other words, if you're using 1 tank or 1 healer, that means your party is just that good that they don't need Limit Break anyway, and you're not missing much. Limit Break damage is not enough to be worth more than another damage dealer if the fight is possible with 5, or even 6, damage dealers. And those parties that will be helped most by it will include 2 tanks and 2 healers anyway because they're still challenged greatly by the encounter, assuming that it outright requires a second tank.

One last thing: If Limit Break is ever literally required and more than 4 damage dealers causes you to hit that point too soon, then oh well. That will probably never happen or be a very exclusive situation given Heavensward so far.