Explain this to me, why is it that the players who think they're good (but are actually bad) are the ones who develop worse attitudes than the good players that everyone refers to as "elitists" in this game?
PF is toxic on my server filled with players performing horribly with no real understanding of mechanics spewing venom at the wrong people when a run goes bad only because the person actually messing up is most the time also calling people out with them, I tend to notice these players to be the ones who just got their first clear in whatever content I'm doing or fairly close to clearing.
I've seen this happen in Ravana a lot which is the content I mostly PF just to help newer players get their first clear (this is me being a tank)
An example of this, I usually have my good whm static healer friend (he and I have way more totems than we can ever care for and only do this to kill time so wipes/bad gameplay aren't issues to us) with me helping newer people when all of the sudden people are dying to mechanics and he gets the other healer raging at him for "lack of heals" when people are standing in the fire, all while the same DPS messing up mechanics are the ones shouting at lack of heals and my WHM friend having not only top HPS but also decent DPS as well, how does this happen? and why are the bad players so toxic?
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11-05-2015, 05:10 PMdank1Bad players with worse attitudes than the good "elitist" players
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11-05-2015, 05:16 PMStrejdaTom
Because this game and its community protects them?
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11-05-2015, 05:17 PMLambdafish
Because these players have been conditioned to get what they want, they have beaten most of the content up to this point either through being carried or the content being nerfed, so they have been taught that they are good because they can beat all content, and cant do wrong despite not actually being as good as they think. I had this in a Shiva EX a while back when the tank slipped and the bow was facing the wrong way (to the side) and it killed half the party, of course everyone raged at the tank, and I was sat there like "well you could have watched and moved, I did".
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11-05-2015, 05:17 PMPSirebral
Because players are so absolutely sure of themselves always being right and absolutely infallible. This is the kind of crap you'll see across every game. In FPS if someone kills you they are a hacker, and MOBAs are the same as MMOs. There is no fear of being punched in the face or any sort of real consequences so you will see venom spewed left and right in most video games. It will ALWAYS be someone else's fault. Sometimes I crack under pressure and act like a punk too but I try to just ignore them. Haters gonna hate and otters gonna ott.
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11-05-2015, 05:18 PMSlappah
I think part of the reason is that ps4 is a pretty big part of this games playerbase and majority of them have absolutely NO clue how much dps they actually do.
They think their hot shit when in reality they are doing less than that 'meh' geared paladin in shield oath. So they keep doing what their doing, thinking it's all good.
This is only part of it. There are tons of different reasons for this happening.
Basically I'll leave it at "bads will be bad" -
11-05-2015, 05:18 PMArchaell
When you lose you get no rewards.
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11-05-2015, 05:22 PMEothas
From my experience, most of the time, people with bad attitude play horrible and try to shift blame to others, usually the one to start blaming people and calling names is the problem. Of course, there is good players that are jerks, but most of the time its the bad players that think they are good.
Just look any ranked system in any MOBA ever (LoL, DotA, etc...), lower ranking matches will most of the time have a more "toxic" environment than higher ranks. -
11-05-2015, 05:24 PMdank1Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
I hate to say and admit that sadly this is true, with no real way gauge others' and their own performance people are shouting non sense all over the place without having numbers in their face and are also immune to the fact that if they do get numbers put in their face by the person defending their-self they'll get harassed even further and threatened with being reported.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
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11-05-2015, 05:43 PMKat_Manx
Actually, sort of as you were mentioning, I find that it isn't bad player vs. elitists, but rather that the elitists ARE the bad players.
They might have cleared some difficult content, I just really have no idea how. Maybe their Free Company helped them or something. Then they come into some dungeon, miss a basic mechanic and then blame someone else on it with sentences like "Please go kill yourself in real life."
Then the other person, who did nothing wrong might obviously get upset, and then THEIR retaliation is considered the "bad" part about this.
5 minutes later the elitist is on a forum complaining how he was giving "constructive criticism" and just nobody happened to listen to him. /rollseyes -
11-05-2015, 05:51 PMMarxamBecause new gamers are spoiled and haven't lived through what we have. Remember lugging around your pc to a friend's house just so you can play in multiplayer LAN games like Age of Empires or Counter Strike together? or playing fighting games with your buddies on the couch nudging shoulders to try and distract them? I lived through these days and its what shaped me as a gamer today.Quote:
Originally Posted by dank1
The new gamers are born with online and lack the human interaction we once had. Therefore they lack any social compassion or obligation to anyone else simply because "they will never see them again". Here's the facts though, you will see these people again and more often than not your name will most likely be shamed, be it in ls or fc chats and thus you will have a more miserable time in this game or any game that makes you work with other people. Also bad players who don't want to become better or take advice/criticism gets blacklisted immediately by me. -
11-05-2015, 06:02 PMWhiteroom
I think a lot have no idea they are performing poorly, and honestly think they are doing well.
I wonder how many of the "Casuals" who bag on "Elitists" for being toxic i their runs are actually running into these loudmouth low performers, but have no way of telling if they are actually good or bad. Or at least of proving it. -
11-05-2015, 06:05 PMLaerune
Can you blame them? They are being carried majority of the content and this inturn gives them the ego that they are elite amazing, superb gamers who can do everything. So when they join a group that is not able to carry them and the group fails. Who do you think they are going to blame? Its a instinctive human response to find the faults in others first, before reflecting in themselves.
Instead of carrying bad players, lets educate them, so they can reach the top without being carried, which inturn makes them learn more about their ability and so they know when things go sour, what they might have done wrong. So FC/LS/Friends/RAID/TRIAL sellers, stop carrying them and be honest about their faults, teach them so they can improve.
Afcourse some players are toxic and wont change, those bad apples are beyond saving and should be ignored. -
11-05-2015, 06:08 PMLolli282I agree "bads will be bad". People with rotten atittudes are gonna have rotten atittudes no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
I'm a casual PS4 player and admit to having no clue as to how much dps I'm doing EXACTLY but as an MMO newbie I take critiques and will try out advice given or battle suggestions in order to be a better player. I think the gaming community as a whole has made me a better DPS, but then again I'm not at the high level stuff where people start to get really ugly with players, at least that's the impression I get here.
I'm glad the rotten apples haven't soured people to newbies completely because I am loving this game and the people are a big reason why. -
11-05-2015, 06:15 PMMrsFluffyButtThis, even though there are plenty of naff PC players with keyboards, but yeah, I'll let you have this for the giggles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
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11-05-2015, 06:18 PMOdds_Ends
The biggest problem is that some thinks they are always right and their way is the only way.
It does not hurt to be nice, most will be nice back if they are treated nice.
For the rest we have ignore. -
11-05-2015, 06:42 PMBorisDaBlade
I hate threads like these. As a casual, it makes me feel as if I should not even try to do anything close to end game content. Not even HM dungeons. I know my ability level. It's not up there with the elitists, but I am not carried either.
I dunno it just seems like the community has turned away from even wanting to help the newbies like me that have only been around for 6ish months. I'll just go slum it in the leveling roulette. -
11-05-2015, 06:49 PMKat_ManxI already made the slumming choice over a year ago. The less I talk to people in the game, the happier I feel playing the game. A little sad I can't be the best due to my lack of gear but, since I don't do anything important, I guess I really don't need the best gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade
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11-05-2015, 06:51 PMAriaEniaDo you know they always call us casuals "filthy casuals"?Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade
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11-05-2015, 06:54 PMEothasIf you are not being an ass to other people, and are trying your best (doesn't matter if you aren't the best player), then this thread is not about you, theres no need to "hate". If anything this thread is about loud players that like to blame others, when in fact they are the problem and the reason content is not being cleared.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade
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11-05-2015, 06:54 PMZeonx
I wasn't going to say anything but yep I think I will.
Its elites faults that those players act this way, if you didn't kick, you didn't call people names when they lose or leave the dungeon because you think you are better than others.
Those people would not hate or treat people this way, it causes hate and nobody to blame but elitist.
If they have a bad attitude towards elites now you know why. -
11-05-2015, 06:59 PMVandrilThis thread has little to do with new players, though. Nor even players who are unskilled because they're new. Nor, in fact, even casuals. That's not what it's about. What the OP is complaining about is how some truly terrible players have truly elitist attitudes, and it's sickening. Their performance is less an issue than their attitudes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade
___________________________
@OP - I've always found that classifying players in an MMO is never as simple as "casual" or "elite". There's more than just two classifications. Generally speaking, the casuals are casual, and will rarely be seen in content as they may only run it once or twice a week. The elite are the elite, and they will be too busy being awesome at what they do to rant and rave in chat - these people are rarely found in PUGs. Then there's the people sort of in the middle - skilled, but too casual to really take advantage of it.
Lastly, we have what is by far the most obnoxious group of people. In my experience, a good 90% of people you'll find in PUGs fit into this group. I call them elitists. I use this term very differently from most of the MMO community, as they are NOT the same as the skilled few who are the elite. The elitists are the douche bags who have egos far too inflated for their very limited skill. These are the people who point fingers and play the blame game on the very first wipe. These are the people who will stand in AoEs and then complain that the healer wasn't healing them. These are the people who will pull before the tanks because "you should pull larger groups". These are the people who will hold groups hostage in order to be kicked so that they can avoid the punishment of leaving a group early. These are those people.
These people are the elitists (and I reiterate: this is not the same group as the actual elite), and they are the poison of MMO communities. I'd take a terrible but pleasant player over these elitists any day. -
11-05-2015, 07:05 PMZeonx
my second post isn't needed first post is good enough.
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11-05-2015, 07:08 PMEothasThis! I totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandril
Same, I would rather have a slightly lower skilled player (because the so called elitists are not good players in the first place), than these annoying people being carried and blaming others at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandril
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11-05-2015, 07:08 PMEloahI'm not sure I agree with this since the PS4 and a PC can almost operate the same way; like if you use a controller. The biggest difference is the PS4 just allows for more players who can't afford a high-grade PC. Sadly I play on PS3 for the time being, I will weep in sorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
I think the main reason is more generational, in a two-fold way. Younger players are too use to the internet and are unsure about proper social etiquette, regardelss of it being virtual. While, some older players who have been playing MMOs from the begining might feel that everyone should be on their level. I think older players who have just jumped into these type of MMOs are the nicer people. They know social etiquette, and are new themselves so they bring the best of both worlds, lol. -
11-05-2015, 07:20 PMZojha
I like how the title implies bad and casual are synonymous.
The thing is: People with bad attitudes have bad attitudes. What skill level they have is largely irrelevant to that.
What does a player with a bad attitude do when he's matched against someone worse than him? "Pwn" the newbie, tell him how much he sucks, give him a teabagging and do rape and mother jokes.
What does the same player do when matched against someone better and getting "pwned" himself? Blame hacking, a broken mouse, bugs, the enemies strats and whatnot. Or, in a team game, the jungler.
You can give people tons of excessively detailed numerical feedback on their performance and all they'll do with it is to either use it to stroke their ego or rationalize it away if they have such an attitude. People with bad attitudes don't care about the facts, they care about their ego. Even in 1vs1 games, people will find something but themselves to blame for the defeat.
That said, players with such an attitude are more prone to be bad and players with good attitudes are more prone to be good. The reason is simple: Accepting blame doesn't feel good. People with bad attitudes thus will push the blame away from them to avoid it, while people with good attitudes will accept it and try to reduce their share of the blame, thus easing the feeling, by contributing more.
One last note: "Elitist" usually refers to people who think they are good and expect others to be good, rather than good players. You can be an elitist and still suck, which renders you a hypocrite. -
11-05-2015, 07:28 PMVivi_BushidoWhile it's true that PS4 players can't see their DPS, a lot of the times, they actually parse equally to what PC players do; so your argument is kinda irrelevant to the OP's post and is possibly a personal vendetta towards the lesser console gamers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
It's funny you say that, cause a lot of people will tell me what my numbers are, but will flake the moment I ask for a screen cap as proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by dank1
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11-05-2015, 07:30 PMZeonxI don't think of myself as really anything, just a gamer I guess who just wants to play a game that I pay for every month lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Like I said yeah I tend to ignore it and laugh it off.
game shouldn't be like a 6 to 8 hour job with stress its supposed to be fun and I just think people forget that and are too involved with the game.
Though I do think elitist attitude can cause person to hate them after a while. -
11-05-2015, 07:36 PMJamein
Bad players will be bad.
Bad mouthers will bad mouth.
Good players need to continue to just facepalm when the 300 DPS dragoon talks smack to the tank doing more DPS than him.
Welcome to FFXIV. -
11-05-2015, 08:09 PMTalraen
I think this problem stems from every part of the community. Experienced players tend to expect other players to know everything, while casual players tend to stay silent and not ask questions. The amount of times I've seen experienced tanks rush into content with non-obvious mechanics in spite of the 'new player' message, without ever asking if anyone is actually new, is staggering. But those new players often didn't say a simple 'hey I'm new here', either.
What ends up happening is these players don't really learn anything, get carried for a while without realizing it, and the first time they communicate with anyone is when their lack of knowledge starts to matter. And that communication takes the form of vitriolic criticism. If the only time anyone ever talks to you is to tell you how much you suck, you're going to get pretty defensive.
I realize nothing I say is going to change this, but experienced players need to actively try to help new players, from the get-go, and new players need to actively seek that help, also right from the start. If you see a tank in Sastasha who isn't even trying to hold hate, don't ignore it because it's just Sastasha and you'll win regardless. And if you're just starting out (and for some reason reading this thread) please just say "I'm new". I've rarely seen a run where there was any issue with a new player who actually said they were new. And for god's sake, if your issue is that you're on PS4 and can't type, either a.) buy a cheap USB keyboard, because this is an MMO, or b.) at LEAST make a macro announcing this is your first time and just hit that in new dungeons. -
11-05-2015, 08:17 PMChiramu
I think most bads are "hardcore" only because they have the ability to sit on their computers all day when other people have RL commitments. I have met a lot better and nicer players who are casual because they always do their best. The "hardcore" crowd is the toxic community.
Just because some people have Savage gear doesn't mean they've pulled their weight, the same with Final Coils, so many bads got carried through or paid their way through.
Everyone, don't lump people together into groups. If you're being a dick to people you are just a dick :p. -
11-05-2015, 08:24 PMAlexftw
Well a lot people used to think I was elitist in last game I played due to being in top ranks and really competitive.
The truth is... I mentored thousands of people, and helped many learn, clear and gear up. Taught many not noticiable mechanisms to have advantage over others in pvp aswell.
At same time I also got to learn a lot from others from sharing information and discussing strategies and trying to do things in unique ways(trying to exploit content ingame and create new strategies).
You see. I don't mind people who fail mechanisms by mistake/lack of experience or have bad rotations/slow reaction and are up to learn. I mind people who ignore everything they're told repeadly and cause it to be a waste of time to everyone else due to 0 improvement every time.
0x5% improvement = 0
1x5 =5, 5x5=25 and so on...
If you aren't open to learn to start with its impossible and so a waste of time because 0 x anything is still 0. -
11-05-2015, 08:34 PMGardesDid I just stumble into an exhibit of hipocrisy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
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11-05-2015, 08:38 PMChiramuStop trying to pick fights and twisting peoples' words. Why should people blatantly spell things out just for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardes
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11-05-2015, 08:53 PMStrejdaTomWell, she quoted you..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
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11-05-2015, 09:31 PMKrylo
Guys, this is really easy:
Any of you have siblings?
Remember all the times you and/or your sibling did/broke something and immediately blamed the other sibling for it so you wouldn't get in trouble?
Yeah. It's that. Same thing.
"I fucked up--quickest way to get out of being blamed is blame someone else first and hope no one was paying enough attention to defend them."
Plus, because they, somewhere, deep down, know they're bad, they have to constantly validate themselves by assuring both themselves and everyone else that they aren't the ones who messed up.
Good players own mistakes and get better. Bad players just shirk responsibility like children.
That's all it is.
It's not confusing, it's not difficult to understand.
It's just stupid and immature. -
11-05-2015, 09:37 PMBhuniMuch rather party with elitist's screaming at the party telling everyone to git gud than these bad 'casual' mouth breathers that can't even awknowledge when they're contradicting themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiramu
Not all 'casuals' are like this thankfully, but to associate bad players as casual is too much of a compliment.
(This is how you pick a fight btw lawl.) -
11-05-2015, 10:12 PMCritical-Limit
I joined a in-progress vault dungeon as healer. The party claimed their healer was bad and kicked them. Nope, they were really bad at dodging. I carried them through it with barely anytime to dPS except maybe a few aeros. They all commended me and because I carried them try probably believe it was 100% the healers fault and not partially theirs for eating so much aoe
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11-05-2015, 11:05 PMMature
I see it this way from my years of gaming experience, in this game NOBODY , I repeat NOBODY is special or have archived anything that someone else has. This game is about having the TIME to do stuff. Got all your classes to 60 before anyone else? Well done but people will catch up got your lucis and master books before anyone else? Well done but people will get it done too. Got your zeta done first? Well done but people will get there too. Have you clear savage first? Well done but others will clear it too.
Some people have this idiotic and moronic idea that if you do something first or you got something first you are better than others.... I don't even know why people have that stupid mentally tbh.
This is what creates elitist twats and rude idiots. Will this ever stop? I don't think so. But remember you ain't better than others for doing or having something first.
You want to feel special? Go and play a game the requires actual skill like a fighting game. -
11-05-2015, 11:15 PMNorthernLadMSP
It's really not about casual vs elitist. It's about attitude and skill level.
I classify people into four groups:
Great skills, great attitude
Great skills, shitty attitude
Shitty skills, great attitude
Shitty skills, shitty attitude
Obviously the last group is going to be far worse than the others, and that's what this thread is really about. -
11-05-2015, 11:16 PMKallera
There's a bit of an echo chamber that occurs in this game if you don't cross over from one community to another, that slowly makes both commuities worse off.
"I dont have to help them! I'm leaving!"
"Wait!"
"I'm only trying to help."
"Well I don't want to hear it!"
"Pull the whole room!"
"No, we're pulling these-hey!"
"It's really too much for me."
"Whatever, slacker."
"Can you not holy the mobs this time?"
"What are you, slow?"
Opinions get made, and people learn to avoid the communities their bad experiences came from, which mean players on all spectrums become insulated. Eventually this results in players having a hard time getting proper help, and a disdain for random people out of the group on both ends.
When solutions are brought up, no one wants to be one at fault, there's always that one guy you remember that was just a curmudgeon to you, and you want him to suffer just as bad. Or maybe you tried it that way once, and hated what you put yourself through over what is supposed to be fun.
Can SE build the solution? Maybe. I'm certain it exists, but getting people to like it won't be pretty and some faction of players is going to feel left out. For all of its failings, the df and pf are "safer" from a social perspective than player enforced server reputations. You go too far on a pf description and you might get laughed at, you go too far with shaming someone and it can go into bullying and harassment, among other things.