Black Mage sends up a distress Flare!

I submitted this as a suggestion to the in-game help desk, but I wanted to post it here for feedback.

With Enochian, we effectively have F4 replacing F1 as our "Cast this all the time" spell for the big numbers, then we switch over to ice to recharge in various respects. However, BMs now lack meaningful AoE which used to basically be the primary selling point of the class. To this end, I had an idea that I think would result in an agreeable solution.

With Enochian: Flare is altered; Minimum MP cost becomes it's actual cost, it does not generate Astral Fire stacks, and it's damage falls off as per increased target numbers. This is being frugal with channeling the power from Enochian through Flare.

Without Enochian: Flare operates as it always has; MP has a minimum price but always drops to 0, Astral Fire stacks go to 3, damage does not fall off for increasing target numbers as per prior to HW. This is dumping in all of one's power for the biggest boom.

(Had a character limitation, thus the two separate posts. My apologies.)

This would bring about a functional equivalent to F2 while under Enochian being a slower casting, lower potency AoE spell, much like how F4 is equivalent to F1 as a faster casting, higher potency spell. Further it would also blend well with the use of prior actions, such as Leylines which is of novel use while performing the Enochian in casual play. In this case, Leylines would be key to getting maximum casts of Flare out per volley and maintaining Astral Fire.

I feel this would help restore the Black Mage's class identity as an AoE thrower and make it fun to play again, because as things stand, everyone I knew who was a black mage isn't any more.

BLM doesn't need buffs to its AoE, unless you advocate SMN and BLM should be nearly equal in that department.

If so, SMN needs about 10% more single target DPS, and that's a can of worms we don't want to open.

I agree with this. I would also like to see a set refresh timer for using Blizzard IV to refresh Enochian. Every other DPS with the same restrictions have set refresh timers. I do want to see B4 reset the timer, but that may be asking too much.

Sleigh,

I am not trying to challenge your logic. I'm genuinely curious. What would be so bad about allowing SMN to do 10% more single target damage?

It would outclass BLM in almost every way. Funny thing is SMN actually does need a little help in the ST department regardless, right now in the current environment, but at least SMN is the god of AoE to help compensate the difference.

SMN = AoE king, low-end ST compared to all DPS, mobile, consistent, options galore
BLM = ST king, high-end AoE compared to everyone but SMN, relatively immobile beyond short bursts of movement, riskier compared to SMN in progression and honestly in general, you're just more likely to have an execution error on BLM than SMN.

You give BLM an AoE buff and it's gotta get toned down in ST, or SMN needs to get buffed in ST, or SMN needs to get their AoE toned down (which would be terrible because that's just about all they have right now DPS wise), or some combo of these three things in some fashion.

I was being outdone on AoE damage by a White Mage throwing Holy. my F2/Flarex2 was largely negligible. I'd rather Summoners be better at single and BMs be better at AoE. AoEs are the reason I leveled the class in the first place. I find the switch to F4 all day with all of the timer juggling and immobility to be a miserable, unfun trade off and the most enjoyment I get out of playing my class to be the occasional World of Darkness runs that crop up. I could at least live with the Enochian dance if I had my AoE back.

Pretty much what seigh said. spamming flare woulod be a really bad idea because if flare is hit on 3 targets or less, it's actually more effective than death-flare. The drawback of course is smn gets a clean transition into anything else they want whileblm waits for ticks. That said, blm is perfectly fin in the aoe department. I break over 2k dps in A2 savage now. (summoners still destroy that number however.) But nothing else except for maybe monk can get that.

And ya smns need a small nudge in ST. mayble like a 1-2% increase.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

I was being outdone on AoE damage by a White Mage throwing Holy. my F2/Flarex2 was largely negligible. I'd rather Summoners be better at single and BMs be better at AoE. AoEs are the reason I leveled the class in the first place. I find the switch to F4 all day with all of the timer juggling and immobility to be a miserable, unfun trade off and the most enjoyment I get out of playing my class to be the occasional World of Darkness runs that crop up. I could at least live with the Enochian dance if I had my AoE back.

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Then either you are playing poorly or the fight only lasted 2-3 globals. with fire 3 being one of the globals

Still think this is the best caster patch the game has seen so far, contends with 2.0 i suppose.

While BLM may have better ST, I think you hit the nail on the head, execution. With the current Enochian restrictions, every time a BLM moves, they essentially lose a cast of F4. Of course, fight knowledge helps time these things more adequately, but there are still a lot of fights that randomly target the BLM (or any DPS). A moving a BLM is not a damaging BLM. It is a delicate balance, yes, but some sort of buff would make the BLM more viable than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

It would outclass BLM in almost every way. Funny thing is SMN actually does need a little help in the ST department regardless, right now in the current environment, but at least SMN is the god of AoE to help compensate the difference.

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I suppose that makes sence but the thing is, after 3.0 SMN got buffed in every way.
They don't have such low ST damage anymore, and they are pretty much OP, especially in PvP. While BLM needs to cast every single spell SMN has Fester, Painflare and Deathflare which are all instant skills that hit very hard. Yes, SMN can't use them without Aetherflow stacks, but it's not taking such a long time to get them back.
I understand that maybe they wanted to make it that SMN wouldn't be too far below BLM damage-wise but imo they overdid it. BLM got AoE nerfed while SMN got boosted in both ST and AoE way. They have a looot of instant spells, even the one that puts all the DoTs at once.
We could at least have Flare the way it used to be. I don't see how it would affect SMN as "AoE-king", they still have a lot of AoE and most of them are instant spells.

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Originally Posted by Lumivyory

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BLM doesn't need an AoE buff. Speaking as a BLM main since 2.0, we are in a great spot. Seeing my parses in A2S is enough to know our AoE is fine. SMN has their AoE niche and their mobility niche. BLM ST numbers are not even correct half the time. I hit a 16.5k Fire IV Tuesday during raid. 16.5k. That's not even right. A BLM who knows what they are doing will do just fine with mobility as well. It is a little bit harder to maintain proper uptime with our long casts and restrictive timers but I seem to manage just fine. The tools are there for us to use, you just have to use them.

As for the OP's original idea, I actually like that. I say that as being a person who cringes every time someone says our AoE needs to be buffed. The idea sounds pretty decent to me. My only thing is I absolutely think we cannot be comparable to SMN in the AoE. I think our numbers are perfect.

The very reason flare was nerfed was deathflare. SE did this to establish identity in the casters. BLM had both the edge ST and aoe wise, where as smn only had multi target dps in their favor. If the flare penalty was taken away, blm would be superior to smn in every way again. I most definitly like my big boom fire 4s. It's why I've always played blm, big boom singletarget. We've always had the highest ST spell anyway. (fire 3/flare in 2.x amd Fire 4 now.)

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Originally Posted by Xisin

The very reason flare was nerfed was deathflare. SE did this to establish identity in the casters. BLM had both the edge ST and aoe wise, where as smn only had multi target dps in their favor. If the flare penalty was taken away, blm would be superior to smn in every way again.

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This for sure.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

(Had a character limitation, thus the two separate post

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Type out your post, copy all of it, delete whatever amount for it to be able to fit into one post, post, edit, paste
GG, you just bypassed the character limit.


They really just need a sticky in every single subforum about this tbh, I see it so often and yet still see so many people not knowing about it.

That or just get rid of the silly character limit altogether

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Originally Posted by Slappah

Helpfulness

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Ah, thank you.

We're still the second highest aoe dps, and ahead of third by a significant margin. All of 2.0-2.55 we were uncontested gods of aoe. We really don't need an aoe buff.

Casters are actually pretty nicely balanced right now, which is rare. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Considering that I have mechanics that actively work against me at all times and if it's at all disrupted then my output plummets while others can just do their thing with simplicity and ease, no I would not call that balanced. I would in fact call that quite broken. I hate what my class has become.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

I was being outdone on AoE damage by a White Mage throwing Holy.

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Based on your lodestone gear you look fairly new to 60. Any dps with 170 and lower gear will be outdamaged by a healer in 190 and up gear in cleric stance.

Just give it some time with the new rotations. I made the fatal mistake of coming here to the forums right when Heavensward was new and believing what I read as first reactions from even well respected BLM's everywhere who were up in arms about how the new rotations and movement killed our DPS. I remember being so worried at like level 56 from all these people who were saying BLM was done. I shouldn't have believed it, not even a little.

Once you get a few pieces of gear and have time to really get used to where you can and can't slide cast, learn fights and when you can squeeze in some more casts and when you can't, you'll see BLM is just as godly as ever.

To me, it feels like all SE changed was they emphasized BLM's strong points even further in exchange for a slight decrease in our AoE numbers and to be honest I'm all for the change. I'll take the slight "nerf" to our AoE. It's not nerfed into the ground and our ST is competitive with everyone except maybe the absolute best melee players out there. BLM is in a pretty excellent spot.

BLM AoE has always felt kinda...choppy?? I wish it worked like our old ST rotation, where maybe every Fire II has like a % chance to proc a freecast Flare. I've found spreading TC procs throughout mobs though is pretty handy, especially with the buff

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

Just give it some time with the new rotations. I made the fatal mistake of coming here to the forums right when Heavensward was new and believing what I read as first reactions from even well respected BLM's everywhere who were up in arms about how the new rotations and movement killed our DPS.

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I don't care about single-target. At all. If I wanted to do single-target damage I would have made a Monk. I hate the de-emphasis on AoE, I hate the nerfs to AoE. I hate being forced to single-target. I hate it. It is not fun. At all. I don't care about theoretical damage. I care about having fun and the Enochian Loop isn't fun. It's stressful. It's frustrating. I do not play a game to stress out over frustration. I play a game to have fun. And I can't have fun with what remains of the AoEs if it doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile because then all I do is burden others.

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

BLM AoE has always felt kinda...choppy?? I wish it worked like our old ST rotation, where maybe every Fire II has like a % chance to proc a freecast Flare.

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This could be neat and fun. I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

BLM AoE has always felt kinda...choppy?? I wish it worked like our old ST rotation, where maybe every Fire II has like a % chance to proc a freecast Flare. I've found spreading TC procs throughout mobs though is pretty handy, especially with the buff

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Spreading TC is only worth it with three or less mobs when you can get few dot ticks. Four mobs is only an increase if you can use your TC during long mana ticks after Transpose, if I'm remembering right.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

I don't care about single-target. At all. If I wanted to do single-target damage I would have made a Monk. I hate the de-emphasis on AoE, I hate the nerfs to AoE. I hate being forced to single-target. I hate it. It is not fun. At all. I don't care about theoretical damage. I care about having fun and the Enochian Loop isn't fun. It's stressful. It's frustrating. I do not play a game to stress out over frustration. I play a game to have fun. And I can't have fun with what remains of the AoEs if it doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile because then all I do is burden others.

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Flare got a 25% damage nerf for five mobs, and when it's only about half of your AoE anyway, it's not that big of a nerf in normal situations in the end. An extra F2 or two in your average dungeon run. I'm also not sure how you're forced to single-target. BLM AoE is still better at three targets than single.

I actually think both classes (smn and blm) are more or less were they should be. Yes it is not even close now in aoe on smn vs blm but ST damage is rather noticeable. Not as big of a gap as some seem to think though.
I do not think summoner should get a increase to ST damage as it would make blm even less viable no? Those of us who still love blm will stick with it but so many players have switched to smn for various reasons mind you
Summoner in PVP... yes very much OP, lol
And not at all mean't to sound insulting as i do have good intentions out of this but you really just need more experience. 100% Enochian uptime, when to use cooldowns, etc. you will get there, current mechanics are not overly bad

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

I don't care about single-target. At all. If I wanted to do single-target damage I would have made a Monk. I hate the de-emphasis on AoE, I hate the nerfs to AoE. I hate being forced to single-target. I hate it. It is not fun. At all. I don't care about theoretical damage. I care about having fun and the Enochian Loop isn't fun. It's stressful. It's frustrating. I do not play a game to stress out over frustration. I play a game to have fun. And I can't have fun with what remains of the AoEs if it doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile because then all I do is burden others.

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Sounds like you need to switch classes. Balance changes things and you can either adapt or go whine on the forums. BLM and SMN are in good places in respect to each other, but Savage favors BLM on 3/4 floors. Hopefully the next raid tier offers something to even the playing field a bit.

As is, BLM is the preferred caster class for the content that matters.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Sounds like you need to switch classes. Balance changes things and you can either adapt or go whine on the forums. BLM and SMN are in good places in respect to each other, but Savage favors BLM on 3/4 floors. Hopefully the next raid tier offers something to even the playing field a bit.

As is, BLM is the preferred caster class for the content that matters.

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I would say, Savage favors BLM on 2/4 floors with Alex Savage 1 being perfectly balanced for both jobs. Blackmage in that it can burst higher before the split which is really good for speedruns if you are going for no jumps, etc. and Summoner in that it has higher DPS output after the split and can handle both adds solo(with enough gear) while having the melee stay on the boss full time.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Spreading TC is only worth it with three or less mobs when you can get few dot ticks. Four mobs is only an increase if you can use your TC during long mana ticks after Transpose, if I'm remembering right.

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If the pack is going to live long enough for the full 8 ticks, TC procs are still worth doing on 5 mobs. The dps is roughly the same as AoE spam, and you have a chance at a proc while waiting on transpose.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

Considering that I have mechanics that actively work against me at all times and if it's at all disrupted then my output plummets while others can just do their thing with simplicity and ease, no I would not call that balanced. I would in fact call that quite broken. I hate what my class has become.

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Okay, gonna gloss right over the "others can just do their thing with simplicity and ease" for now, but why is enochian relevant in a discussion about aoe? Changing our aoe wouldn't change enochian. :P Kinda feels like you're grasping at straws here.

Because it's the focal point of the L60 Black Mage to such a degree that it renders all other options obsolete. Everything you learn as a BM up until that point is rendered worthless, save for "F3 and B3 give you max stacks". The Enochain Loop is just a perfect storm of problems.

1. It changes class focus abruptly. (Single regular damage vs Single burst/AoE burst)
2. It changes class play style abruptly (Hard rotation vs Proc-fishing/Burst recharge)
3. It changes class complexity drastically

As a result, any hypothetical changes have to involve changing Enochian in some manner. Personally I'd like it to actually mesh with what was formerly the capstone of the Black Mage kit, Flare.

Enochian is not nearly as bad as you make it sound. All three of your problems are just that it changed the style. That's one problem, and not even a problem.

I enjoy the new rotation quite a bit. And frankly, expansions are supposed to shake up the old rotations. It'd be pretty silly if we were still just spamming f1.

SE changes stuff, people complain about change. Don't change it and people complain that it's not different enough for an expac. There's no winning for devs.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If the pack is going to live long enough for the full 8 ticks, TC procs are still worth doing on 5 mobs. The dps is roughly the same as AoE spam, and you have a chance at a proc while waiting on transpose.

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But one F2 is stronger on four mobs than a full TC, 720 compared to 710 respectively. I'm not seeing how Thunder is a gain on five mobs.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

But one F2 is stronger on four mobs than a full TC, 720 compared to 710 respectively. I'm not seeing how Thunder is a gain on five mobs.

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1. TC has zero MP cost, and you don't just chain F2 endlessly
2. TC has a shorter cast time

Up to 5 mobs I'll start with sharpcast Thunder and spread around all the TCs that proc during my AoE rotation up until I'm past the first transpose. After that I won't use any procs unless a mob is over 50% or if I'm at 0 MP waiting on a UI tick.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

Because it's the focal point of the L60 Black Mage to such a degree that it renders all other options obsolete. Everything you learn as a BM up until that point is rendered worthless, save for "F3 and B3 give you max stacks". The Enochain Loop is just a perfect storm of problems.

1. It changes class focus abruptly. (Single regular damage vs Single burst/AoE burst)
2. It changes class play style abruptly (Hard rotation vs Proc-fishing/Burst recharge)
3. It changes class complexity drastically

As a result, any hypothetical changes have to involve changing Enochian in some manner. Personally I'd like it to actually mesh with what was formerly the capstone of the Black Mage kit, Flare.

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To buff BLM's AoE means they have to increase SMN's ST for balancing purpose, which is almost impossible considering they have only 2 options, increase Fester/Energy Drain potency or increase pet's ST damage. Any buff to SMN other than those 2 skills can be abused to be AoE damage.

There's also potential SCH DPS to think about.

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Originally Posted by alphamax112

To buff BLM's AoE means they have to increase SMN's ST for balancing purpose, which is almost impossible considering they have only 2 options, increase Fester/Energy Drain potency or increase pet's ST damage. Any buff to SMN other than those 2 skills can be abused to be AoE damage.

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Only Pet, Fester and Ruin III or make DT more dmg buff.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

Everything you learn as a BM up until that point is rendered worthless
1. It changes class focus abruptly. (Single regular damage vs Single burst/AoE burst)
2. It changes class play style abruptly (Hard rotation vs Proc-fishing/Burst recharge)
3. It changes class complexity drastically

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A Lot of jobs complexity got changed in HW. Change is not bad. It's uncomfortable, it's new, it's up to YOU what you make of it from that point. Embrace the change or don't. This entire section feels like you're complaining about what was and not embracing what it is now. Reroll a different job if you don't like what you have now, no one will blame you. This section feels like what Bard is now, some changes, and ppl are up in arms about it.

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Originally Posted by WordOnTheWind

I don't care about single-target. At all. If I wanted to do single-target damage I would have made a Monk. I hate the de-emphasis on AoE, I hate the nerfs to AoE. I hate being forced to single-target. I hate it. It is not fun. At all. I don't care about theoretical damage. I care about having fun and the Enochian Loop isn't fun. It's stressful. It's frustrating. I do not play a game to stress out over frustration. I play a game to have fun. And I can't have fun with what remains of the AoEs if it doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile because then all I do is burden others.

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But our AOE isn't obsolete, it's great. I just said that. Just because it isn't the top dog anymore, doesn't mean it's garbanzo. BLM AoE is great. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Yeah. There's a website which ranks players based on DPS for any encounter. U can see there, only in A2S SMN is superior to BLM, but in 3 other floors I can say BLM is superior. Why do we want BLM to rule ALL those encounters?

At I90-200 i've gotten Flairs for 8-9k i've even had flairs upwards of 11-12k, flair spell works as intended, fire 2 aoe's about 2.5-3k so not to bad. Big problem with black mage right now is movement, u move your screwed, allowing sure-cast to allow casting while move for a brief period would help this. I swore about a year ago they were suppose to make sure-cast a spell that allowed casting a spell while moving for a short period of time, apparently that never went through.

Aoe wise blm is 2nd place, not a big deal really. I read somewheres someone stated Monk aoe was more then that of blm... i laughed rather hard
Smn and blm are at the spot they should be i think.
Single target damage is very much a part of blm as well, do not care for it and angry that aoe got nerfed, maybe just switch to smn or another class?
Besides the current content really does not require the all mighty aoe that 2.x blm had.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Aoe wise blm is 2nd place, not a big deal really. I read somewheres someone stated Monk aoe was more then that of blm... i laughed rather hard
Smn and blm are at the spot they should be i think.
Single target damage is very much a part of blm as well, do not care for it and angry that aoe got nerfed, maybe just switch to smn or another class?
Besides the current content really does not require the all mighty aoe that 2.x blm had.

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MNK AoE actually is super competitive with BLM now, especially burst with Perfect Balance. It's only when Foe's enters the equation that BLM can win. Elixir Field is ridiculous, it's enough to elevate MNK up sustained or burst.