Is there honestly any point in being a Ninja over say a Summoner? Let me explain; I love Ninja, I love the concept, the aesthetics and everything however the actual execution? I don't have the best gear, but my Ninja is currently geared on par with my Summoner and my Dragoon, the latter of which just makes Ninja look like a joke.
As much as I love the class, I have to take into consideration that honestly playing as a Ninja feels like I'm not there for damage but just to provide a debuff, the positionals are really blegh and so unforgiving compared to Dragoon, and it is certainly not as simple to grasp as Summoner and all of that is saying nothing of Mudra lag.
What I'm really hoping for is to hear from Ninjas with experience in proper high end content about what it is like, are you guys currently falling behind by a lot? Do you feel like you can do as much damage as a Dragoon or Monk? Do you ever feel like you only have a spot in your static because of your debuff and goad?
I want to be a Ninja but..
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10-24-2015, 10:12 AMleoxastarothI want to be a Ninja but..
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10-24-2015, 10:25 AMSleigh
In a good group you will be contributing a terribly large amount (inb4 people erroneously come in and say it's 1.6% raid boost - it's a bit more than that) with Trick Attack, close to 3% in practice. If everyone's pulling their weight it's massive, not to mention its ability in turning DPS checks into nothing. Your personal damage will be a small bit below DRG, a bit above SMN (depending on Foe's), but Trick Attack is enough to compensate. Then you've got the other utility tools like Shade, Goad, and every once in a while Dancing Edge.
Positional wise, it's not bad. You aren't ruined if you miss an AC or AE, just 60 and 80 potency lost respectively, not the end of the world if you can't get to your spot for some reason. You only do positionals once every 3-6 attacks anyway, and if you fail, turn your AE into a DE and do an AC/AE in its place next time. Only Trick Attack is unjustly strict, and I wouldn't mind if the effect was taken off the positional requirement list (can keep the potency loss).
Basically, NIN is a team player class. You're usually not going to top the charts, in general you'll be within 90-95% of the top DPS in your group, but you'll be providing enough of a boost that if you look at what you as a NIN contributes, you're a damn strong class. If they fix Mudra lag, and possibly give some TP adjustments so it's not so draining on your MCH/BRD to play TP restoration, the class will more or less be perfect. -
10-24-2015, 01:16 PMzcrash970
Well as long as you don't have severe mundra lag, you'll do more single target dps than a smn. Also nin has much better ultilty than a smn. Battle raise, super virus, and E4E is great and all but Goad, Smokeball, Trick Attack, and the other aggro modifier (forgot its name from the moment) are much better.
Compare to the other melee dps, nin is the weakest but better ultility.
Honestly, it comes down to what you enjoy playing the most as. -
10-25-2015, 01:25 AMArkenne
Do not forget that of the 3 melees, NIN is the only one that goes fullpower from the get-go, while the other 2 have to build up.
This makes them remarkably friendlier to enviroments where constant target switching is a thing and loses less DPS due to mistakes or disconects. -
10-26-2015, 08:12 AMJim_BerrySo true. The only bad thing about it is, you HAVE to stay on it. The moment you slack, it's touch playing catch up, especially if there's no WAR or another NIN using Dancing Edge in the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkenne
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10-26-2015, 11:53 AMZyst
If you look at the damage logs of the top players in the world NIN is definitely going to be behind Monk and Dragoon in pure DPS.
And you are going to be miles behind, as in as much as 3 times less damage than a Summoner doing AoE damage.
You need to come to terms with this, or you are not gonna have a good time with the class. We provide an amazing amount of utility to any team, any loss (Which really isn't a big loss regardless) we cause usually compensated by our utility in clutch dps checks, doppelganger helping establish aggro on a tank, buffing not only your own damage but also DRK and Paladin by 10%, helping your off tank stay as the off tank with Smoke screen, and so much more!
Yes, your dps numbers are not the highest, and they probably never will be. Who cares? Not to mention you are making a big assumption of "Same skill level", which usually isn't the case. And trust me, a very good NIN will out damage a good monk/drg.
Cont.. -
10-26-2015, 11:54 AMZyst
Cont..
Also addressing your quote:
the positionals are really blegh and so unforgiving compared to Dragoon
At level 60 you will only use Aeolian in extremely rare situations. Like extremely rare. Armor Crush is just a slight dps loss when you fumble the positional and still gives the Huton refresh benefit regardless of which side you hit, with Trick attack being the only huge dps loss when you fumble it, but fumbling it is extremely rare, as it's a oGCD so you can just keep doing your normal rotation while you get into position calmly.
To repeat myself. Assuming you have the same gear, and the same skill level: You are going to do less damage than monks and dragoons. If you are not okay with this damage loss being traded for utility this probably isn't the job for you, however, if it is then you will find an amazing job that is truckloads of fun and does incredibly competent damage. -
10-26-2015, 01:48 PMkazeandiWhat's "incompetent damage"? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyst
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10-26-2015, 02:33 PMCalypsxPaladin...Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
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10-26-2015, 02:52 PMZystI didn't define competence in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
First lets establish that competence is relative. In a team where everyone is exclusively auto attacking a person spamming a single skill is a golden god.
Second: Let us assume competence is the highest possible skill level for your current highest content. For instance, the hardest content I have cleared is Ravana Extreme, and weekly clears of normal alex. So I'm at a relatively casual level. The highest skill cap that is seen in the content I do is generally different from the highest skill cap that currently exists in the game (Alex Savage) This second concept is important. It is like "Grading in a curve", where the person with the highest test result defines the maximum score available in a school test.
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10-26-2015, 02:53 PMZyst
Now, let us assume the best damage doable in my skill level is this amazing black mage, they nailed the entirety of their rotation, didn't drop enochian, and everything went their way. They theoretically did the highest achievable damage within my skill level.
Lets define this Black mage as "X".
At this point we start grading every other class based on "X". Lets now say a monk comes along and does more damage than this blackmage. This monk did (1.04 * X) damage.
This monk now has the best damage, but the Black mage still has superb damage, albeit not the best. Now lets assume we keep going down this way assigning a mental 'leader board' of sorts. Where would NIN when everything goes perfect sit? Somewhere along the lines of (.93 * X) damage.
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10-26-2015, 02:54 PMZyst
Thus, you, as a NIN, have very "Competent" damage. As in you can "Compete" with the other jobs. When you add your utility the damage increase seen by other players can be enough to bridge the gap, or in rare scenarios be enough to tip it over to be an advantage.
Now back to the question:
What would be incompetent would be different from person to person, it's an abstract concept that I don't hold any particular definition for, as opposed to competent damage which I explain above.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
But if I had to say if a monk were to be doing (.40 * X) damage in the same gear as a theoretical identical monk doing (X) damage, I would be inclined to say the first monk is "Incompetent", and by comparison, your damage as a NIN of (.93 * X) is very competent. -
10-26-2015, 02:56 PMZyst
Now lets say you enter dungeon finder, and most people do not care to find their most optimum rotation or anything of the sort, and play casually, which is completely fine. You'll find that a lot of players will cap their damage below their theoretical potential. You, who are playing closer to your theoretical potential are doing significantly more damage. Thus, your damage is more than competent, it's: The best in this current curve.
NIN, theoretically, doesn't do the most damage. But if you are a good player and strive for improvement you will find yourself doing the most damage extremely often regardless.
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10-26-2015, 09:55 PMSida
I haven't played top level ninja but I've understood they can cause the whole other group make more damage. Now count this as damage you do (since it wouldn't be there if you weren't ninja) and look at the numbers again.
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10-26-2015, 11:08 PMChalupaBatman
I'm usually about 150 ish dps behind our MNK 1410 to my 1260 in our A4s clears both of us @ 210, does TA make up for that 150 disparity? Yes it does, might even be more but I'm not sure.
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10-27-2015, 03:58 AMFellesarah
Avoid Ninjas.... easy to play and hard to be efective in high end raids..
Weak dps, big energy problems, yes your energy go out in 170 secs wih invigorate, mudra lag, ineffective TA, great useless agro Skill (-_-) no one tank raid has problems with agro.
But if u want a little demon in pvp, Ninja is your job, can beat every class in 1x1 (exclude Healers) ... a good ninja can kill a warrior in 5 secs, only the best melee opening in pvp 2800 dps in 5 sec. Ops Yoshida will nerf ninjas in pvp now 0_O forget all -
10-28-2015, 01:17 AMCotaBota
As a NIN I am usually tied or slightly higher than SMN in a parse, outside of a2s. I also Fuma religiously, being at 60 ms. This "falling behind" feeling is certainly not present, though a slow Suiton will make me rage.
In the end it's less about your arsenal and more about your execution. -
10-28-2015, 01:27 AMSidra
The variances in DPS across jobs is far, far less than the variances due to player skill. Play what you enjoy and be good at it, and you will be an asset to any team.
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10-28-2015, 01:39 AMAlahra
If you want to be a NIN, I say go for it. Some adjustments are coming in 3.1. Mudra adjustments are likely to result in at least some DPS increase, and TP adjustments will make you less of a burden on the raid's DPS. (I also wonder if we'll see further adjustments, such as to AoE, but they haven't specifically said anything about other changes). As others have noted, though, NIN's strength is best realized through Trick Attack and their adaptability in fights with long phase shifts and the like.
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10-28-2015, 02:26 AMMaero
What people do fail to understand is even if Ninja is slightly behind on dps and yes it is slightly not alot like some think but anyhow, Ninja brings more to the group. Ninja is not "weak", a class/job is only as weak as the person controlling it ;)
Sure hope there is some nice tp fixes -
10-28-2015, 05:30 AMHouston009How is it hard to be effective as a Ninja? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellesarah
Shadewalker on pull.
We can see other players TP.
We can see the enmity list and can shift the enmity.
Increasing main tank enmity increases tank damage(WARs aren't tanks).
The use of Trick Attack is not hard to apply.
Out of the 3 melee, the least effected by mechanics.
etc. -
10-28-2015, 10:46 AMFellesarah
Ninja is the perfect for pvp and broke for pve ....... but not bad at all .... If u want fun in pvp, ninja go go ....
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10-28-2015, 01:19 PMHouston009You seem of had bad experiences with Ninja, where did the incompetence hurt you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellesarah
P.S. Ninja isn't even the best melee for pvp.... -
10-29-2015, 12:55 AMFellesarah
You seem of had bad experiences with Ninja, where did the incompetence hurt you?
P.S. Ninja isn't even the best melee for pvp....
Yes .. is sad to see .. my ninja doing 1200 dps and .. MNks and Drg do 1450+ is my incompetence .. but in pvp I can kill any warrior, dragoon, mnk , blm, Smn, Mch, Bard, Drk , Paladin on 1x1 -
10-29-2015, 02:20 AMMaero
Is there even actual evidence that Ninja is not best in PVP? I think not, it's all just a matter of opinion. I never have issues taking down Monks and dragoons in PVP ever, only real times i die to them is if a few of them gang up on me.
And yes i am nowhere near top player in PVP so either other melee are always just bad or just maybe Ninja is actually good in PVP ..... -
10-29-2015, 03:28 AMHouston009For one, you are only killing BAD Warriors, Paladins, and Dark Knights. You are suppose to beat Black Mage, Bard, Summoner, and Machinist in 1v1. And against another melee is a toss up. In competitive play, Dragoon is a better melee than Ninja in PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellesarah
And here are some parses from A3S. The variance in DPS between Monk, Dragoon, and Ninja.
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...obal&spec=Monk
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...l&spec=Dragoon
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...bal&spec=Ninja
By disregarding the #1 Dragoon and Ninja numbers (they were fed every buff from AST), the sustained dps of the melees are a lot closer than you realize.
The only reason ninjas may have felt a bit behind was due to poor itemization. Our i180 - i190 gear and raid drops contained a ridiculous amount of skill speed, a stat which barely does anything for us.
Now, you can see how close ninja is to the other melee, and how their utility would bring overall more damage to the group.