Bard or Machanist?

What difference is there between these 2 jobs? Which is more easier to play? It seems Mch have a lot of utility in their kit like rend mind/dismantle and hypercharge with their turret. While Bard only has foe requiem. Does that make mch preferred over bard in a raid setting? I know Bard has that warden's paeon or something but from what I heard that song is pretty crap? Are they even in term of dps?

Personal DPS: roughly the same, edge to BRD probably due to how they put out damage (BRD converts better with bad phase change timers, and lots of Misery's) in real fights. AoE MCH wins but that's only dungeons and A2S, and BRD AoE is no slouch (plus Foe's is godly for AoE in general)

Raid DPS: Foe's >>>>>> Hypercharge if your healers are good, pretty close even if your healers barely DPS if at all. Rain of Death gives even further healer DPS if they're not ACC capped. That said, Hypercharge is much more consistent, as it will usually come out like clockwork, while Foe's is more susceptible to MP/TP needs or mechanics like the A4S MP drain (hopefully not a recurring element in HW raids ...)

Mobility and such: MCH is way more mobile, can stance dance and save procs much more effectively. BRD can move in spurts infrequently but no long-term mobility options that don't destroy your DPS, but luckily A1-4S never requires constant movement.

Utility: MCH is way better, always can give TP/MP with only the turret loss and using MP that goes towards nothing but resource regenration, while BRD has to have MP for it (sometimes Foe's will drain BRD and then an accident happens) and loses further Foe's by singing resources. This is more important in progression than anything else.

The difference isn't huge. The main thing is that Foe's and Rain of Death are better in good groups, at the cost of quite a few nice little advantages MCH has. You can really just pick the one you enjoy more without worrying too much.

was JUST about to make this threat because I want to level up my RANGE dps and I didn't know which one to pick, hopefully we get feedback soon, but ultimately I'm leaning forward to MCH if it helps, I look at their rotation and checked those HOW TO threat and It gave me a clear vision of each play style and rotation, I find MCH more fun because apparently seems to work much better than BRD when it comes to GB/WM plus the adition of turrets and ammo seem far more interesting mechanics and fun to manage than BRD (imo) the only thing bard has that can draw me back is the BOW I find them pretty sexy tbh.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Utility: MCH is way better, always can give TP/MP with only the turret loss, while BRD has to have MP for it and loses further Foe's by singing. This is more important in progression than anything else.

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MCHs have to use MP too for promotion, we also lose around 15% of our dps from the turrets.

for ranged dps ...the only answer is SMN ....

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

for ranged dps ...the only answer is SMN ....

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that's a caster buddy

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

MCHs have to use MP too for promotion, we also lose around 15% of our dps from the turrets.

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Yes of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. What I meant is that because a BRD has to sing Foe's, there may be times when a healer dies or goes overboard and a BRD will not have enough MP to rectify the mistake. MCH's MP is only tied to resources, so unless the MCH's MP is otherwise drained (Straf explode or deaths come to mind), it's a non-issue, and even then MP regeneration is so dang cheap.

Will make that clearer I guess.

Thank you for the quick information between the two jobs, sleigh. I guess I will choose to play the bard rather than mch. I loved the bow and triple emperyral arrows!

I'm not sure about the math of physical def down with hyper charge with the normal 1mch 2 melee 2 tanks vs Foe's and 1 healer 1 caster(cause brd doesn't benefit from it and generally one of the 2 healer is normally healing. But I'd say the mentality with brd vs mch comes from what party set up you run with. Is your group in the bleeding edge of content going for world first. Does your healer not have accuracy melded accessories.

Personally think that for WF groups with healer(s) with melded accessories and the 2x melee set ups mch would be better with their dmg reductions whereas brd is there to compensate for accuracy problems with healers (rain of death).

As for which one is easier to play. Personally bard is easier to play cause of the simpler rotation and since I'm used to casters so that 1,5sec casting isn't issue with me. Mch is harder to maximise imo, you could compare smn and blm in 2.x to mch and brd. Mch harder maximizing and easier to dps + move (procs) whereas brd is easier but allows less movement to get max dps.

TL;DR Brd is utility, dps vs movement and difficulty of rotation vice more like blm was in 2.x and mch is more like smn was with same points. If healer(s) have accuracy accessories (no need for RoD) and 2x melee in party I'd say mch is better choise. Else go with bard (RoD is really OP if healers dps and don't have accuracy accessories) and if there's 2 casters 1 melee.

Just my point of view.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

MCHs have to use MP too for promotion, we also lose around 15% of our dps from the turrets.

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closer to 12%/13%. gets cut down to 7%-8% if you repeatedly toggle promote on the turret

I have Both but Bard will always be my main though, because I started the game as Bard. Both are pretty fun. But now I'm loving Summoner.

Best to play whichever you prefer, guns or bows. Both jobs have their advantages and disadvantages. You will not have trouble finding groups on either or. Probably be in your best interest to level both since they share the same gear (besides AF) and pretty much go under the same stat priorities for the most part. I am gearing up both, done getting eso's for MCH, now getting remaining AF and got the bow for BRD. I like to think of it as wanting to be an overall efficient support DPS.

Bear the following in mind : I do not raid, instead I use the duty finder for instances and I solo a lot.

I have a lev.60 Bard at ilev.200 (except for 3 items of jewelry) and currently my MCH is lev.55. So far I find I prefer the MCH to the BRD because so far I find the gameplay is a lot smoother. It looks like MCH is a lot more "work" but I am enjoying it a whole lot better than my BRD. The only thing my BRD does better is kiting mobs.

Bard feels "clunky" and I am not enjoying the experience. I want my old Bard back not the current abomination.


I also have a lev.60 Ninja (ilev.180) and a lev.60 Dragoon (ilev.180). So far, MCH is it for me, unless they fix Bard it probably will be my new main.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Utility: MCH is way better, always can give TP/MP with only the turret loss and using MP that goes towards nothing but resource regenration, while BRD has to have MP for it (sometimes Foe's will drain BRD and then an accident happens) and loses further Foe's by singing resources.

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I will add to this the little known fact that we can Hypercharge our TP/MP regen if a true emergency occurs, so that instead of the increased turret damage and debuff, we can provide our regeneration at double capacity. It's very rare that this is a necessity or that Hypercharge will be off cooldown when it's needed, but it can really save a group if the healers are at low MP from constant revives, or if the melee/tanks are out of TP due to low DPS/DeadDPS dragging the fight on longer.....

EDIT: As for the OP's question, both are equally as good, just in different situations. MCH works better with melee/tanks because of our physical DPS buff we can provide, as well as it boosting our own DPS. Bards on the other hand are better suited for caster groups due to having a stronger magic DPS buff that can be kept up for a longer period of time. Ultimately though, while they do have similar capabilities, and similar damage, it amounts to which play style fits for you better. I personally can't stand playing BRD because it feels incredibly slow when compared to MCH, but for most people MCH is a bit too complex for them to play effectively, (hence the massive backlash the class had when it was first released). BRD also has more consistent damage in general, but MCH's burst damage means that every couple of minutes or so you will pass BRD's damage until it evens back out during the down time. This is all of course if you're comparing BRDs and MCHs of equal skill, however. It's up to you to play them both and decide which you enjoy more.....

Bards:

• Do slightly more Multi-Target(1) DPS in prolonged fights.(2)
• Damage is sourced from maintaining DoTs, ogcd proc and 1 button.
• Have to cast MP/TP regeneration abilities centred on BRD.
• Foes Requiem buffs magical damage by 10%. (2 Healer, 1 Mage)
• Battle Voice can double MP/TP regen freely with no DPS loss.(Aside from the norm)
• Can Cross-Class Mantra & Second Wind.
  • 10s Bind - 40s CD
  • 1s Silence - 30s CD
  • 10% Evasion Down on enemy

Machinists:

• Best Burst DPS - Lowest overall DPS(3)
• Damage is sourced through 3-hit combo with unique proc system.
• Stronger & more flexible AoE damage.(4)
• MP/TP Regen is ogcd and can be moved to specific locations.
• Hypercharge buffs physical damage 5% (2 tanks, 2 melee, 1 ranged)
• Hypercharge buffs magical damage 5% (2 healer, 1 mage)
• Cannot boost MP/TP regen as Hypercharge is crucial for DPS.
• Cannot Cross-Class any worthwhile defensive cooldowns and has no self-healing.
  • 12s Bind - 20s CD
  • 2s Silence - 25s CD
  • 2s Stun - 25s CD
  • 12s Heavy - 20s
  • Knockback - 30s
  • 10s -5% Magical or Physical damage - 90s

Summary

• Bards do more damage in most end-game fights, for whatever reason, they just do. This difference ranges from an unnoticeable 25 DPS to several hundred. (The next point might give insight into why)
• Bards are played almost three times as much in end-game content.
• Bards are easier to play and require less focus on strict rotation and cooldown alignment. (Hardest class, lowest damage? TY SE?)
• Machinists aren't trash. They're viable and extremely useful in a lot of cases. If you need something dead in 15s, they can do it better than most.
• Machinist utility is undoubtedly greater in almost every aspect (except mp/tp regen once or twice a fight)
• 5% physical damage with a standard party of 5 physical damage dealers is stronger than 10% on 2 magical casters. Even if your personal numbers are lower, consider how much you're boosting team DPS.
• Their single-target parses are pretty similar. Like, <35 total DPS difference most of the time.

(1) Venomous Bite + Windbite = 18s, applied to a maximum of 3 targets you can juggle your two strongest skills with Iron Jaws. MCH can't achieve these potencies without using AOE rotations. When you've got two bosses (A1S) double-DOTting results in amazing damage.
(2) BRD solo damage is predominantly higher due to the way Wildfire and cooldowns align in actual fights, Bards aren't restricted to unleash their full potential 90% of the time.
(3) Hardest class to play? Lowest potencies? Not played often enough? Too much utility & party buffing capability? Statistically they are the weakest and it's just an unfortunate truth.
(4) Bishop Turret = 600 potency/30s that can be repositioned + 120 Grenado vs Flaming Arrow 350 potency/30s that can't be moved + 110 Quick Nook. MCH can also Hypercharge for 780/30s.

The thread is a month old since the last response, but eh...

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

Machinist utility is undoubtedly greater in almost every aspect (except mp/tp regen once or twice a fight)

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Their regens are much more flexibile for inbetween phasing. Only a couple of fights actually cater to this nich though (thordan EX comes to mind). It also does not affect the MCH's damage directly, so their rotation can continue as normal versus a BRD with DoTs

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

Hypercharge buffs magical damage 5% (2 healer, 1 mage)

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Direct comparison to foe aside, also keep in mind that this is also lowering the potency of your turret from 160 to 120 for the duration of hypercharge. . For the most part as far as damage is concerned, hyperchage is buffing your turet's dps, with the debuff as a secondary bonus.

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

5% physical damage with a standard party of 5 physical damage dealers is stronger than 10% on 2 magical casters. Even if your personal numbers are lower, consider how much you're boosting team DPS.

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Don't forget that foe requiem has a much much longer uptime than hypercharge ever will. And top that off with hyper charge being a damage cooldown on top of a defensive cooldown, trying to use one for the other will either detriment your dps or lose the option of having burst mana regen.

Other than that, what needed to be said as been said. MCH and BRD are similar to each other in every regard; in the roles they play, their performance (with some variance), and handling outside of cooldowns. At this point, you're much better off picking the one that you want to play as. People say that MCH is more work for the same result (which is true when it comes to the burst periods), but as someone who full time mained bard, I welcome this and prefer MCH over BRD since they really have not changed much as far as playstyle/gameplay is concerned from 2.0.

BRD
"Battle Voice can double MP/TP regen freely with no DPS loss.(Aside from the norm)"
MCH
"Cannot boost MP/TP regen as Hypercharge is crucial for DPS."

I'm curious about the disparity here, because I was under the impression BV coupled with Foes was basically the biggest selling point of the BRD. Hypercharge's piddly 5% vulnerability is too crucial to DPS to use on regen, but BV buffing Foes from 10% to 20% isn't?

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I'm curious about the disparity here

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A bard guide I use did some of the math, I'll just paste the gist of it:

" Comparing both of their "DPS" boosts in 2x Melee and 2x Mage party comps:
(.78%/.57%)MCH - 2x Melee Group - .78% | 1x Melee - .57% (Math Below)
(1.2%/2.16%)BRD - 1x Mage Group - 1.2% | 2x Mage - 2.16% (Math Below) (Do note that results may vary depending on if a Brd can consistenly play Foe. Also Caster dps deal slightly lower dps than melees)
(1.15%/2.07%)BRD with only 2x BV Foes - 1.15% / 2.07% Respectively "

The difference is fairly slight, if a little in favor of bard because bv is stronger than hypercharge

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I'm curious about the disparity here, because I was under the impression BV coupled with Foes was basically the biggest selling point of the BRD. Hypercharge's piddly 5% vulnerability is too crucial to DPS to use on regen, but BV buffing Foes from 10% to 20% isn't?

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My BRD (or BRDs in general) have always ben valued for foe requiem, not necessarily BV + foe. Hypercharge is also integral to MCH's personal dps, while battle voice isn't to BRD, and that hypercharge itself is also the damage vulnerability debuff.

You're comparing the loss of a 5% physical debuff and 160 potency hits versus doubled regen to a 20% foe req versus double regen, when the latter can still do foe req for 10% without BV (and as mentioned before, the 5% vulnerability debuff is tied to hypercharge)

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

Snip

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If I could like the post 1000 times I would.

You know, I didn't even notice this thread was so old. I just kinda got bored at work and I don't usually venture into the DPS forums. -_-

Sorry for the necro! Ha.

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

You know, I didn't even notice this thread was so old. I just kinda got bored at work and I don't usually venture into the DPS forums. -_-

Sorry for the necro! Ha.

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It was my fault for necroing it the day before, lol. I didn't even pay attention to how old it was, just that it was on the first page. Too much time on the General Discussion forums I guess?

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Originally Posted by UlricCraft

You know, I didn't even notice this thread was so old. I just kinda got bored at work and I don't usually venture into the DPS forums. -_-

Sorry for the necro! Ha.

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No sorry :)
I found your Post very helpfull.