Suggestion: The Spear

Can we please have this effect be able to be used retroactively? It sucks that I generally have no way to stop and ask someone (in the middle of a dungeon or otherwise), what buffs they have used, or have not used, and do they intend on using them in the future? However, if the spear were retroactive in reducing cool-downs that are already on cool-down, I wouldn't' have to worry if I've used it on the right person at the right time. At this point, I feel as if they planets have to align (pun intended) for this card to feel useful to anyone other than myself.

Well it does work that way.
Only it change the maximum cooldown only... Not the ongoing cooldown that reloaded.

It's pretty useless... Unless you're ready to use your mana regen and CO or if your tank just used invicibility

Is it still the same in that you have to use the Spear card before someone uses an ability? (Off topic a bit but is Disable still the same or can a boss be casting a large attack and then still use Disable vs being psychic and knowing something is coming? I've been using it when I see it cast a large attack so hopefully that is working!)

Disable works on duration now, so you can use it being slightly less psychic, just by knowing kinda when a mob is going to use its move. However, I think that it will not nerf the attack unless it's used before the attack started. I'm pretty sure the game checks once for the debuff, then moves forward instead of actively checking at the beginning of the attack and then again on execution.

It doesn't work that way. It reduces the cooldown of OCD actions by percentage, but not retroactively. So, if my tank "just used invicibility" [sic] that cool-down is spent, and there is no way for me to help that tank regain it. However, if the card is on him BEFORE he uses his move, that cool-down would be less, allowing for OCD actions like raging strikes, etc. to be up more often. If the card was changed to allow for retroactive reductions, it would work on OCD actions that were already on cool-down thus taking the portion of time off their respective cool-down remainders. This would make the card universally useful, and not useful per situation. Again, my main complaint is that I am unable to psychically know when cool-downs will be used, or if they have already been. If it's retroactive, I no longer have to worry, I can just use the card and everyone will receive the benefit.

I always just use the timer on the side and mark time when the battle starts. At about 2 minutes in to the fight, I know it's going to be about time for those big buffs to come back up and I should use Spear on them if I have it. Fights being the way they are, you will only use be able to refresh it once per fight. Otherwise, the other buffs have CDs of less than 1 minute, and last for at least 10 or 20 seconds. So, if I don't see they have that buff active the moment I draw Spear, I am fine with just tossing spear on them knowing the buffs will be available within that 30 second timeframe.

Of course, there's a few classes who are you can always stick spear on (ninjas, dragoons, and summoners) and expect a faster burst.

I do wonder if there's some kind of raiding tool that keeps track of buffs though. Buff cds are really easy to track since it has the same cd and duration even after a death.

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Originally Posted by Izmeaih

Disable works on duration now, so you can use it being slightly less psychic, just by knowing kinda when a mob is going to use its move. However, I think that it will not nerf the attack unless it's used before the attack started. I'm pretty sure the game checks once for the debuff, then moves forward instead of actively checking at the beginning of the attack and then again on execution.

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Just to clarify, if you use Disable during the cast bar of an attack, it will still reduce the damage of the attack. If you use Disable after the cast has finished and the animation has begun, or similarly, after the mob has used it's GCD and begun an attack, then, like you said, the game has already checked for buffs/debuffs and Disable does not affect the attack.

On topic, I sure wouldn't mind an adjustment for the Spear to function this way. It relies heavily on coordination and communication that simply aren't present in your everyday pug. It's great when Spear lines up with a DPS check or you can drop it as your opener, but that's not always the case. Don't forget, though, that Spear's Royal Road effect is extremely safe, providing a 1:1 card advantage so you don't fall behind on your Draws.

Great thanks, and yes that's what I meant by Disable, like when you see it casting an attack if I can use Disable to stop that. Figured it would be that way since it only lasts 6 seconds so wasn't sure when it had to trip. I usually wait until it's at like 80% casting the attack and then hit it with Disable. Spear is annoying to me since I've never played as a tank before and have ZERO idea what their cool downs are or anything. So instead I tend to use it more on myself where I know it will be used.

If you have a MCH, DRK, SMN, SCH, or DRG in your party, you can safely use Spear on them without worrying about it going to waste, and those are just the classes that immediately come to mind.

I get what the card does. I understand how it works. In reply to some of the treads here, I simply do not want to count 1-mississippi when engaged in an encounter. What I am more interested in are outlier variables. What I am suggesting is a mass improvement over the card itself to just be easier to time/use, which benefits us all equally. Every card in the Astrologian's kit is equal in its application. They are all used in a universal sense, and hence are all effective boosts. With many skills in the game having a large OCD time - such as 150, 120, 90, etc. One can never be too sure when your spear will overlap with another. The dev team has, of course, done a wonderful job with this class, as they have with so many others. Retroactive reduction would be quite amazing in almost every type of group especially where communication is lacking or not possible.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

If you have a MCH, DRK, SMN, SCH, or DRG in your party, you can safely use Spear on them without worrying about it going to waste, and those are just the classes that immediately come to mind.

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That's a good point, I wasn't thinking of DPS classes where they have a lot of abilities like that like MCH (mine is just at 47). I always just think Tank automatically and have no idea what cooldowns they use or to know when I'd even guess to apply it, whether before a pull, right at it, during etc. I think I need to try to get more in the habit of using the cards, instead of constantly just wanting a Spire or Ewer to AoE the next card. Pretty sure an extended Balance with Time Dialation on one DPS will probably do more than expanded Balance on the whole party.

Sorry to go off again but instead of starting a new topic, when you do expanded royal road, how is the radius selected? Like is it a 15 or something yalm circle around the person I use the card on? Or is it from myself? I'm thinking the person it is cast on, but haven't really seen for sure.

Keep in mind that a spire/ewer royal road will reduce the effect of the card by 50%, so a 10% boost in damage becomes a 5% boost for everyone. The 3.07 patch buffed spire/ewer royal road so the duration remained the same, but the effect is still halved.

This is only considered a net gain in a full party. Otherwise, you are better off using ewer/spire to regen resources. Warriors actually get a lot from spire in that they can substantially increase dps without worrying about TP during it. Also, monks, dragoons, bards, and mchs get a lot of use from it for aoe purposes.

On topic:
The spear does require a lot of in-depth knowledge of other classes to work though. To be honest though, many dps classes have an ability or two with that is off the gcd and is usable within the 30sec window of spear. It's just that the effects of those cards don't show up until 45 seconds or a minute later, which can be a lifetime in combat. An instant reduction of a CD may be useful, but it also risks being cut off a lot more often (having cd seconds wasted because a CD is more than 80% or 70% when amplified to being off CD).

I'm not saying the suggestion is not without its merits or welcome, but it does have its own problems. If this were a single player game, it's the difference between a skill that gives you a bonus attack and a skill that removes the CD off any skill you already used.

Just use a macro beforehand so they know they can pop CDs. Retroactive would be too op considering you can aoe it on the whole raid and it would affect more skills since it goes backwards.
Something similar to:

/micon TheSpear
/p Reduced CDs on <t>! TheSpear Card activated
/ac TheSpear

The only reason to ever pop that though is to use it on your self and use synastry+Aether. For all other classes its barely any of any use since people need to understand to react to it properly, which is rarely the case outside raid conditions, most likely even ripping their rotations due to changes in timing in their rotations.

[QUOTE=MariaNyan;3377921]Just use a macro beforehand so they know they can pop CDs. Retroactive would be too op considering you can aoe it on the whole raid and it would affect more skills since it goes backwards.

It would not be "too op" because the spell already performs these actions. Of course it would affect more skills, the way it is now it's hard to affect any. I already use a macro for my cards, it's a sloppy solution. I should not have to use 3rd party software, count to 1000, or make a convoluted macro (so that people who have already used their OCD's don't even care that I'm about to use it), just to make a spell work well. Further, I can already AoE the spell, it has a minuscule reduction when spread to the entire party. A 10% reduction (when spread to the entire party) is only a net gain of 6 seconds on a 60 second cool-down, and rarely would anyone be able to say "heck yeah! Let me pop all my cool-downs now that I'm saving 6 whole seconds on em!"

I sometimes before we rush to pull the boss, will flip to Noc, swiftcast Aspected Helios, and then flip back to Diurnal as the tank runs to the boss. Gives that 30 seconds of shield as well as you can still stack on regens from Diurnal with the Noc shield up. Not sure if it helps much, and you run the risk of the tank rushing in and you being stuck in Noc, not the end of the world but kind of cool you can do that. Would be awesome though to be able to switch mid battle, like when a big AoE is coming, flip to Noc pop that shield on everyone, pop collective unconscious and then once attack hits can swing back to Diurnal. :)

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Would be awesome though to be able to switch mid battle

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I was reading through forums and someone said that they'd like collective unconscious to allow us to swap. I don't remember which thread it was, though.

Forgive me if im wrong and point me to sources if i am but the spear is 10% attack speed. Blood weapon is 10% attack speed. Why is everyone saying it works for CDs every test ive done in game has pointed to the arrow reducing CD timers not spear

Nothing fills me with greater joy than getting a Spear just as I'm about to refresh Aetherflow and go into Trance on SMN.

Spear definitely needs adjustments though. It should either be 30 seconds in duration to ensure that most classes can at least use some manner of cooldown while it's up or cut it back down to 15 seconds and make it work retroactively on already running cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by LlamaOfLag

Forgive me if im wrong and point me to sources if i am but the spear is 10% attack speed. Blood weapon is 10% attack speed. Why is everyone saying it works for CDs every test ive done in game has pointed to the arrow reducing CD timers not spear

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You have them backwards. Spear reduces recast and Arrow increase attack speed. The have some what similar coloring (at least I think so as I've made the same mistake before)

[Edit since not on smart phone anymore] You can test this by giving yourself Arrow / Spear. The card that gives you increased attack speed will reduce both the cast time and recast time of your spells. The card that gives you reduced recast will give you a reduced recast on your abilities. These values will automatically be updated on the tooltip if you hover over them with your mouse so you can see the changes directly.

If it ain't savage, spear doesn't matter, and you can just use it on yourself.

It's like a Draw Two card, only it's Draw-1.2-if-your-draw-is-coming-up-again.

Yes I have to admit I didn't give spear enough of a chance until just today. For some reason I had it in my head it only benefited tanks, maybe because I didn't really have many abilities myself that I needed it for. I just clued in that I can use it right before Collective Unconscious and it cuts almost 20 seconds off of it which is pretty sweet, or even on LA it takes it from 2 minutes to a minute 40 seconds. I've been using it a lot more now, also since the one poster mentioned MCH and I remembered how many some DPS classes have. I don't mind it at all now!

While the spear is not useless and can be used tactically, I agree it should be retroactive, it's not like we can pick the spear out of a hat and have it at the time when we know someone is going to use a cooldown and that's the major problem with it, cause you'll never spread the spear when you can shuffle it or just get rid of it. If it worked retroactively when you do draw it you could say "ok, I know that pld just used hallowed ground, this could be good for him".

It's far too situational as it is to be an RNG based thing. It would become a great card right up there with balance if upon use it instantly cut down all cooldowns that had already been used and then for the duration cut down any other cooldowns that were used.

There's been more than a few times where I've said to myself, "damn it I've not been monitoring everyone's cooldown use... Who am I supposed to use this on? Why can't it just reduce already used cooldowns too?".

That's why I only use it on myself now before popping Collective Unconscious or any of my other cooldowns, even holding it and then using it before doing Draw so that I can draw another card much quicker next. It's a gamble using it on anyone else, so I hold it or use it right away just on myself where I know it will actually be beneficial.

This would indeed be a nice change, luckily I mainly play alongside a SMN that I know, so I try and time it to make her Aetherflow pop more often but it would be nice if this change went live >.<

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

so I try and time it to make her Aetherflow pop more often

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Must resist urge to make a dirty comment...

My suggestion: make it apply to the current cooldown time. This would make it far more reasonable - if someone just popped a long cd ability, and you used spear immediately, then you'll almost get the full benefit. If someone's ability is close to coming off CD and you use spear, you'll get less of an impact, but at least it'll still not be completely wasted.

(Also, could shuffle PLEASE choose a different card. I feel like more often than not I'm shuffling only to draw the same card.

(Also, could shuffle PLEASE choose a different card. I feel like more often than not I'm shuffling only to draw the same card.[/QUOTE]

This is one of my bigger gripes! It's so infuriating to NOT need something, only to have it come right the hell back.

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Originally Posted by Delta041

Nothing fills me with greater joy than getting a Spear just as I'm about to refresh Aetherflow and go into Trance on SMN.

Spear definitely needs adjustments though. It should either be 30 seconds in duration to ensure that most classes can at least use some manner of cooldown while it's up or cut it back down to 15 seconds and make it work retroactively on already running cooldowns.

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Maybe give spear a buff that stays with the player until it uses a cooldown then the buff will activate for the next 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Anova

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Warriors actually get a lot from spire in that they can substantially increase dps without worrying about TP during it. Also, monks, dragoons, bards, and mchs get a lot of use from it for aoe purposes.

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Just want to point out that warrior has no problems with TP as you were suggesting using spire on it, rather use it on other tanks. Warriors have on GCD skills that cost no TP when you have 5 stacks + if healers don't esuna pacify, warriors have 4 seconds of forced TP regen in a form of not being able to use GCDs every 90 seconds.

If I remember correct I did 11min parse on a dummy without using our 200tp regen skill at all (which is on 1min CD when you're in deliverance)

So rather use spire on the pld or drk that has TP for about 2 min 20-40seconds. And if you know when the warrior is gonna use his berserk, arrow helps with squeezing that 1 extra GCD in the berserk window.

Edit: now that I read your post again while reading through my post for typos (I bet I missed some didn't I?), it seems a bit like you meant to say arrow instead of spire there. My bad if that's the case.

On topic tho:
Like mentioned by some, retroactively working spear could rise up to be quite OP, unless it doesn't work the way it used to work anymore.

So basically take off the duration on it and when you activate it people in the range gets affected by it and ongoing CD's get reduced but any CD's after spear activation doesn't get affected by it?
Might be as bad but
/shrug just throwing around ideas

#lvl56 AST so idk what I'm saying

Edit#2:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Maybe give spear a buff that stays with the player until it uses a cooldown then the buff will activate for the next 10 seconds.

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This actually sounds quite neat, though that might get people not to use their CD's and hold them until they get all of them off CD/close to off CD which could potentially be more of a dps loss than gain, though without using some too much math for me, can't tell for sure.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Maybe give spear a buff that stays with the player until it uses a cooldown then the buff will activate for the next 10 seconds.

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Give this man a god damned cookie.

Not just a cookie.

A god damned cookie.

(It would still require some sort of "Only one Spear may be out at a time or you get some wonky !@#% where you RR Spear an individual, do it again, until the hwole party has it for a boss pull. Shenanigans!)