Shield Oath+Sword Oath at once

I think a Paladin should be able to use both Sword Oath and Shield Oath at once. It would fix a lot of issues with the class that it has.

What a fantastic idea. Let's boost PLD damage and reduce it by 20%. Brilliant. Hats off to you, sir.

Think the idea is to up DPS in tank stance.

Sword oath would be pointless as a stance though, there would never be any reason to turn it off.

Yet another well thought out thread \o/

Now following your idea pattern let us make WHM's cleric stance swap it's Int and Mind stat around while also keeping the Mind the same as the Int!

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Yet another well thought out thread \o/

Now following your idea pattern let us make WHM's cleric stance swap it's Int and Mind stat around while also keeping the Mind the same as the Int!

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I don't understand the toggle thing. You just toggle it on when you DPS and toggle off when you don't DPS. The game has a 2.5 second GCD so its not even hard, just annoying.

Just leave it on and remove the healing penalty.

That is a lot different though.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't understand the toggle thing. You just toggle it on when you DPS and toggle off when you don't DPS. The game has a 2.5 second GCD so its not even hard, just annoying.

Just leave it on and remove the healing penalty.

That is a lot different though.

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umm Cleric stance has a longer CD then 2.5 seconds when beining turn on.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I think a Paladin should be able to use both Sword Oath and Shield Oath at once. It would fix a lot of issues with the class that it has.

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http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...92-The%2Bn.jpg

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Originally Posted by FridgePanic

What a fantastic idea. Let's boost PLD damage and reduce it by 20%. Brilliant. Hats off to you, sir.

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Thanks. I laughed so hard at this..

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Yet another well thought out thread \o/

Now following your idea pattern let us make WHM's cleric stance swap it's Int and Mind stat around while also keeping the Mind the same as the Int!

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Right!? Next idea is gonna be combining Kiss of the Wasp and Viper making us Nins have 40% increase at all times! Pure genius!

Am I missing a joke here? >_>

OP's suggestion is fine - it means that paladins will do more DPS and threat when in their tank stance (50 potency per auto attack is sizeable), will be able to swap to their DPS stance simply by disabling Shield Oath so wont waste a GCD (similar to DRKs disabling Grit) and wont affect their offtank dps which is pretty much fine.

It would be no different to a DRK having Darkside and Grit, both of which can be on at the same time, with Grit/Shield Oath being toggleable as the tank stance.

It wont fix all their issues but it would help. I'm failing to see why people think this is a troll suggestion. Only bad thing is that it turns Sword Oath into an "always on Passive" with no downside to just turning it on all the time and leaving it up.

If Sword Oath functioned like Darkside then this would actually be a very viable thing. Both Shield Oath and Grit function the same (-20% dmg taken -20% atk power) but DRK can have Darkside and Grit up at the same time negating their dmg decrease to -5% due to the mp drain.
Re-work Sword Oath so it does the same mp drain since we have Riot Blade to help us get mp back just as DRK has Syphon Strike and give the 15% increase instead of 50 potency on auto-attacks only.
Problem solved with PLD having such a low damage output compared to the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Am I missing a joke here? >_>

OP's suggestion is fine - it means that paladins will do more DPS and threat when in their tank stance (50 potency per auto attack is sizeable), will be able to swap to their DPS stance simply by disabling Shield Oath so wont waste a GCD (similar to DRKs disabling Grit) and wont affect their offtank dps which is pretty much fine.

etc due to limit.

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Because most if not all of his threads are trollish.

See the thing about SWO and SHO is that they bounce off each and the fact you can't have them both on is one of there down sides and just poping Sword oath on increases PLD's Auto attack nothing else, it you could have both on just remove like 2% from SHO damage output then.

But yes you are right DRK can have Grit and DS but at the cost of MP and how expensive grit is to turn back on and also DS is required to be on to use some of DRK's skills and it fits into DRK lore wise.

If SwO worked like Darkside this would be fine. I don't think homogenization is the answer, but it's definitely one of the possible solutions. Though something to keep in mind is that if PLD is doing DRK levels of DPS, it's also bringing a shield and an on-demand 30% physical damage reduction CD every 30s... and Hallowed. This is what I meant when I posted that it's really hard to fix jobs without data of how those changes would affect balance.

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Originally Posted by Aethon

... DRK can have Darkside and Grit up at the same time negating their dmg decrease to -5% due to the mp drain....

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Grit Off, Darkside Off: 1.0
Grit Off, Darkside On: 1.15
Grit On, Darkside Off: 0.8
Grit On, Darkside On: 0.8 * 1.15 = 0.92

Ergo, Having both Darkside and Grit on, your damage is trailing by 8%, not 5%.

If both SwO and ShO be on at the same time, it will effectively increase a PLD's pot per sec by 17.86... which is 35.71% of a normal SwO extra attack.

My current normal SwO extra attack deals an ave of 205. So with my eso sword, it will effectively increase my dps by 73.21 with both oaths up. Not bad...

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Originally Posted by rawker

Grit Off, Darkside Off: 1.0
Grit Off, Darkside On: 1.15
Grit On, Darkside Off: 0.8
Grit On, Darkside On: 0.8 * 1.15 = 0.92

Ergo, Having both Darkside and Grit on, your damage is trailing by 8%, not 5%.

If both SwO and ShO be on at the same time, it will effectively increase a PLD's pot per sec by 17.86... which is 35.71% of a normal SwO extra attack.

My current normal SwO extra attack deals an ave of 205. So with my eso sword, it will effectively increase my dps by 73.21 with both oaths up. Not bad...

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To negate the penalties of Grit. It would need to be adjusted to 18.75% whilst in Grit Stance.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Grit Off, Darkside Off: 1.0
Grit Off, Darkside On: 1.15
Grit On, Darkside Off: 0.8
Grit On, Darkside On: 0.8 * 1.15 = 0.92

Ergo, Having both Darkside and Grit on, your damage is trailing by 8%, not 5%.

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Yah that is the way if you drop Darkside and Grit of everytime you wanna do dps, but you can use Darkside even without Grit so it is more like 23% less damage in tanking stance than dps stance.

I like this ! Let's make warrior have the hp / healing boost he gets from defiance while he is on deliverance ! That way all the Raid will be 6 warriors 2 healers.

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Originally Posted by KinSlayer009

I like this ! Let's make warrior have the hp / healing boost he gets from defiance while he is on deliverance ! That way all the Raid will be 6 warriors 2 healers.

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SwO doesn't negate ShO's damage reduction completely (even if it did they could make some numerical adjustments to make it... not), just as Maim and Darkside don't negate Defiance's/Grit's. The only problem I see with SwO being able to be used in conjunction with ShO is that there's no cost and no upkeep necessary. If they changed it to drain mana, then they'd just be copying Darkside which is a bit... boring. It's certainly one solution to PLD's MT DPS deficiency though.

Orrrr how about you remove enmity generation from flash during sword oath and change it to a STR based aoe, since a giant portion of a pallys lack of dps is aoe (talked about this with a friend today). It also encourages the use of riot blade to replenish mp and goring blade to spread its powerful dot around. You could also do something similar to Royal Authority, but I'd like to see something that increases nearby party members defenses while in the off tank stance after its been used for a short time.

This OP topic is a troll though for sure.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

SwO doesn't negate ShO's damage reduction completely (even if it did they could make some numerical adjustments to make it... not), just as Maim and Darkside don't negate Defiance's/Grit's. The only problem I see with SwO being able to be used in conjunction with ShO is that there's no cost and no upkeep necessary. If they changed it to drain mana, then they'd just be copying Darkside which is a bit... boring. It's certainly one solution to PLD's MT DPS deficiency though.

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Maybe make it have more SKP, more damage but you'd be TP starved so not advised to have constantly then again PLD's has TP problems as it is.

The other option its make Sword Oath a Buff with time and for more time active you need to use Shield Swipe for... i dont know... +15 secs?, but in this case you should make Shield Swipe OCD with 15 secs cooldown or somethign like that and reduce the potency i think. ( im no good at number xD)

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

Am I missing a joke here? >_>

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Boring people tend to miss jokes yeah.

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Originally Posted by FridgePanic

What a fantastic idea. Let's boost PLD damage and reduce it by 20%. Brilliant. Hats off to you, sir.

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Yeah! That's just silly! Could you imagine if that's how Darkside functioned?

...Oh wait.

The problem with comparing sword oath to darkside is that darkside is a buff, and sword oath is a stance.

Darkside is a buff that is maintained by MP. Every tank ALREADY has a DPS buff.

DRK has darkside.
WAR has Berserk.
PLD has Fight or Flight.

The blatantly obvious solution to balancing isn't to do ridiculous suggestions like have both stances active at once, it's to either adjust potencies or adjust fight or flight.
Besides the clunkiness associated with the job (I certainly wouldn't be opposed to having stances off the GCD, even if it does give it a significant advantage there), the job plays fine as it is.

Adjust fight or flight would do a lot for PLD, either extending the duration, shortening the cooldown, or adjusting it's damage bonus.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

DRK has darkside.
WAR has Berserk.
PLD has Fight or Flight.

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Darkside is more like Maim than it is berserk, which is more like fight of flight rather than maim/darkside. Warriors are pretty unique in that regard, though they pay for some of that in terms of potency of their abilities.

Fight or Flight is already a top shelf damage buff. Both in buff and duration. PLD just has nothing else in their kit to build off that in a significant way. If FoF's duration was increased by even just 2 seconds that could make Spirits fit twice within it's window. But this is still doing little to nothing.

WAR has a multitude of buffs, abilities, and playstyle that let it build up to it's DPS numbers. DRK has more oGCDs than even a DRG can handle,


I think the ship has sailed on PLD DPS hopes thanks to Sheltron, Divine Veil, & Clemency. New HW abilities are PLD's only chance.

Because otherwise if they wanted to make these sort of buffs to existing abilities, they would have done it in 2.x. Same with Flash dealing damage: if it was going to happen, it already would have.

they buffed Shield Oath's aggro modifiers in 2.1
..followed with a modifier buff to Flash shortly after
..followed by a modifier buff to CoS after that
..followed by another buff to Flash

almost every iLvl increase patch

In all those hotfix adjustments to PLD aggro issues, they never considered added DMG potency to Flash or CoS ticks accumulating aggro? Nah, they did consider: With a distinct 'no.'

I wouldn't expect anything more of PLD adjustments other than tweaking enmity modifiers.. just as they've done before.. same as it ever was.. Maybe Swipe ignoring tank stance penalty.. I can imagine much more (Phalanx plz, AoE plz, DV having threat gen, etc etc),

but be real, PLD will eat cake.

/emote crawls back into the corner hugging his shield.

Ah, another Nektulos-Tuor thread. Every single suggestion he has can basically be summed up with "I am bad at the game, please accommodate me". I think the last time I saw him post, he wanted pvp ranks removed because its not fair that he had to earn the gear he wanted to wear. Ignore him, he *is* the joke.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

I'm failing to see why people think this is a troll suggestion. Only bad thing is that it turns Sword Oath into an "always on Passive" with no downside to just turning it on all the time and leaving it up.

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So you do see, then.

Why would Sword Oath even exist in this scenario? The only thing it would do is punish PLDs who forgot to turn it on. Might as well just make Sword Oath a trait at that point.

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

So you do see, then.

Why would Sword Oath even exist in this scenario? The only thing it would do is punish PLDs who forgot to turn it on. Might as well just make Sword Oath a trait at that point.

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This. It becomes a poison.
If it sapped mana in way that meaningfully limited the PLD in some way (since we currently use mana only for AoEs and healer d/cs), then it'd be something worth keeping on our main bars, even if still slow to swap (though that may then mean we at least have a meaningful decision to make in a given dps window). But given PLD's current resource usage...

Make up your minds people.

Everyone agrees Pal could use some sort of buff... someone makes a harmless suggestion that mostly works, could use a little tweaking of course as any suggestion anyone ever makes...


and people go full retard about it. Calm down people holy crap

Let's just combine all three tanks since everyone wants the same ability and just call it Tank. At least then I'll only have to level it once.

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Originally Posted by Walluh

Yeah! That's just silly! Could you imagine if that's how Darkside functioned?

...Oh wait.

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This is exactly what I thought when I read it too lol.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

The problem with comparing sword oath to darkside is that darkside is a buff, and sword oath is a stance.

Darkside is a buff that is maintained by MP. Every tank ALREADY has a DPS buff.

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Whereas this is true, no other tank in the game suffers such a dramatic penalty for using their tank stance as Pld's. I'm not saying that the Op's idea is solid... cuz it's not, but it's a well known issue with Pld's that their dmg reduction while under the effect of Shield Oath is FAR greater than both War and Drk. FoF is supposed to compensate, however it's timer is much too short to be overly useful in this regard and it has no stacking bonus with the exception of dropping Shield Oath while it's up. Drks can stack Darkside and Dark Arts. War's can stack Berserk with Wrath abilities etc. Pld's can't do anything to fully utilize FoF except drop Shield Oath. That's hardly comparable.

You're right though, the job does play fine as it is. Pld's are very solid tanks... except in Savage Alexander, where most raid groups take one look at your Pld and go... "don't you have a War or Drk you can use?" Because the difficulty is based on Dps, and Pld's make that Dps check all that much harder.

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Originally Posted by FridgePanic

What a fantastic idea. Let's boost PLD damage and reduce it by 20%. Brilliant. Hats off to you, sir.

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Just amazing.