So i have seen a few dancer tank post out there and i am really interested in the concept now am trying to think how would it be implemented. Would it be more of the ff11 tank or more like a capoeira inspired Dancer.
Dancer Tank!!!
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10-12-2015, 08:00 AMliljramos88Dancer Tank!!!
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10-12-2015, 08:11 AMTint
my first intention was it would be a tank who dances SO bad that everyone wants to kill him xD
so he should have the best aggro skills out of all tanks >.> -
10-12-2015, 08:25 AMCalypsx
A tank that puts themselves at center stage; that makes themselves the main attraction. Dancer literally screams "Look at me!" which makes them seem like the perfect type of job to gain enmity and attention. After all what good is a Dancers performance without the proper audience to witness it?
We already got the bulky heavy armored look down and I think tanks are lacking a bit in the thematic variety department compared to dps.
It's unlikely but I'll always dream about playing Dancer tank again like I did in FFXI. One of the reasons I go back to XI is to play my dancer tank every now and then. Sadly chances are they will be more likely considered to be a dps or healer... I think they are afraid of introducing light/medium armored tanks. It would be "too much work" as they always say. ;_;
Dancer is honestly tricky to implement, it can be played as a tank, a healer, a dps, and a support. While I may enjoy tanking on mine others may enjoy playing it as a different role. -
10-12-2015, 08:34 AMTinti like evasion tanks, but i don't think they will work in this game. same reason why parry is the worst stat in the game. you need to mitigate specific attacks, there is no room for RNG parry / evasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypsx
an evasion tank should not have the same def and life as the other tanks, so if he gets hit he will die pretty fast. but he can't dodge everything, that would be OP.
so... they "can" implement such a tank if he has a stance wich "dodge" 20% of the damage and some cooldowns to "dodge" another X%... the easy square way to implement things xD -
10-12-2015, 08:37 AMCalypsxI don't think they would be directly evasion based. Just have the "theme" of being nimble. Not even the Monk in WoW and the Stalker in Wildstar are that evasion based and they still have powerful mitigation tools. They would take hits like everyone else but as long as they feel quick and light on their feet it kind of solves the problem of all the tanks being heavy armored brutes. Maybe give them a more support ability kit as a tank to let them keep some of that dancer feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
Yeah this is pretty much what I was thinking, it's kind of how other games do it. They do have some evasive cooldowns but generally you're still getting smacked so they still have overall damage mitigation worded in other ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
It's all for thematic variety reasons and allows the tank role to appeal to more people who might imagine their character being more nimble than armored. I also think a heavy armored looking healer would be nice to have someday for those looking for it. Also how dps are always clamoring on about needing a sword using dps. Giving everyone a bit more choices to pick from for their favorite roles is always nice. -
10-12-2015, 09:05 AMIsius
....lol Did I start something? xD
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10-12-2015, 09:14 AMfm_fenrirThe bigger issue is that you can't dodge or parry magic. There would be no issue with a tank that used a bunch of evasion cooldowns to simply avoid incoming damage entirely, except that they'd instagib like a DRG in any fight with magic damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
Also, to OP, the art team would have to build a completely separate set of "tank" gear for an evasion tank, since the "fending" line is 100% heavy plate and would be completely out of tune with the image of an evasion tank. -
10-12-2015, 09:22 AMCalypsxEh, just recycle Ninja and Monk gears and recolor them. That's what they do for dps and casters/healers anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by fm_fenrir
I'm sure these things aren't really impossible to work around seeing as other games implement this kind of stuff all the time. -
10-12-2015, 10:24 AMArdorGrey
I'd have no interest in it. More tanks is never a bad thing but I think I'd be more inclined to play the job if it was a melee healer than if it was just another tank with "evasion flavored" mitigation.
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10-12-2015, 10:48 AMSarynth
The feels when you miss soloing hard stuff with dancer in ffxi... I would totally be behind having dancer as a tank.
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10-12-2015, 10:48 AMrawker
evasion tank would be very hard to balance since evaded attacks deal 0 damage making HG, LD, and Holmgang piss poor compared to it. and since it will completely mitigate damage, this kind of tank will have the lowest hp pool of all tanks.
another thing on evasion tanks is that it will be stressful on healers. if the dancer fails to dodge consecutive attacks, say goodbye to your health. -
10-12-2015, 01:54 PMShurrikhan
Evasion tanks are fine. Tanks without controllable mitigation are not. Why do people so often assume that a tank must always dodge according to RNG, or that an evasiontank is an RNGtank?
Even a lack of "manual" mitigation control is fine is long as "procedural" mitigation can reliably intercept a known, incoming attack when it counts. -
10-12-2015, 02:01 PMrawker
PLD's Sheltron is a guaranteed block.
WAR's Raw Intuition is a guaranteed Parry to frontal attacks
DRK's well... still fishing for that dodge and parry to proc off Dark Dance.
Though they do not completely block the entire attack. They still receive a portion of the damage. Having a dodge-equivalent of Sheltron or Raw Intuition where it is a guaranteed dodge is way overpowered since lol 100% damage mitigated. That would even make them better tanks than PLDs since they mitigate more damage. -
10-12-2015, 02:34 PMShurrikhanYet, it doesn't have to be. Dodge levels/calculations can be adjusted at any time. They could just as easily be an accuracy reduction of an enemy attack, stackable with parry, that creates a percentile glancing blow dealing, say, anywhere from 50% to 0% damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by rawker
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10-12-2015, 02:46 PMwicked-onehttp://torosytoreros.weebly.com/uplo...43480_orig.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by liljramos88
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10-12-2015, 05:12 PMFreyyyYou can totally dodge magic. You can just not block/parry it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fm_fenrir
I think that a tank with a lighter armor might be interesting. Especially as a Dancer. I'd love to see some kind of "cleric-like" healer, with somewhat heavy armor, a shield and a mace or hammer. Would look neat. -
10-12-2015, 05:19 PMShurrikhanMagic can miss (due to the attacker's own inaccuracy), which will display "dodge," but you can't technically dodge magic. This was more clear back when 'Dodge' and 'Miss' had separate displays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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10-12-2015, 05:23 PMFreyyyConsidering that dodge is calculated with enemy accuracy, I think that they're both one and the same. Plus when you have an ally who dodges an attack the flying text on him is "MISS" but when you're the person who dodges an attack it's "Dodge" so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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10-12-2015, 05:35 PMShurrikhanIn 1.x the term "miss" was used even on attacks against oneself if the enemy missed. (They do not have perfect hit chance.) Calling all enemy missed attacks as "dodges" if personal, and all non-personal dodges/misses as "misses" was just a change in display since ARR. Try aggroing in front of a higher level caster mob, pop your dodge buffs (DA-DD / Featherfoot) and see how effective that is. Now try blinding the enemy and see how much more you "dodge" (sadly w/o triggering Haymaker).Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
It's possible that I've just been very unlucky for the past 2 years, and that Shade Shift, when still the guaranteed Perfect Dodge (in 2.x), was only allowed to trigger on physical attacks despite this not being shown on the tooltip... but I really doubt it. -
10-12-2015, 05:42 PMKuwagamiNot really. You just have to see the difference in damage taken by a DRG and any tank at equal ilevel if they try to tank anything. A light-armored tank would get wrecked in no time in the current state of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
I'd like to see dancers as a debuffer dps (one can always dream, amirite ?) or a tp healer imo.
Though, bring on the cleric, or as a tank, the templar. gotta shine with truly holy tanks. -
10-12-2015, 05:53 PMShurrikhan"In the current state of the game" is always the optimal disclaimer, though. Any change in the game's underworkings can make a lightly-armored tank, who makes up for the defense difference in other ways, just as viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
I've been working up a pipedream on Templar for a while now... though as a longsword-using class for Mage Knight (Mystic Knight) and Sword Saint. Part of a sort of anti-magic ascetic religion.
Been imagining Dancer primarily as sort of a coordinating offensive support. -
10-12-2015, 05:59 PMFreyyyShade Shift was only for physical attacks since the beginning. It was specified in the tooltip, something like "Guaranteed dodge for the next physical attack".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
And just did the test :
http://i.imgur.com/6vvwXuC.jpg
I remembered that I dodged a lot of magical attacks when levelling MNK and still got haymaker procs. I don't know for 1.0 but since ARR dodge and miss are both the same thing. It's just that when you're the one who does the attack, you miss, but when you receive the attack, you dodge. When a 3rd person is seeing this as a spectator, you both miss eachother. -
10-12-2015, 06:37 PMShurrikhan
Ahh, I see. Thought they had combined them in display only for the convenience of separating incoming vs. external dodges/misses, not also in their procs, silently buffing dodge-counters.
That being said, just went for 6 Featherfoots against a caster mob (Water Sprite) my own level. I dodged about once per minute, with only one of these dodges over 9 minutes being during Featherfoot. Compare this with about 3 dodges per minute vs a physical attacker (Sun Leech) with 1-3 dodges per featherfoot duration, and you'll see why I consider magic to ignore dodge chance, depending instead on enemy miss chance. Seeing as raid bosses are 3 levels higher than you and have no native miss chance against you, that would, in the current state of the game, make dodges unusable as anti-magic mitigation in a raid setting. [E.g. I have never once dodged a Ramuh attack, in weeks of farming.] That was all I meant by all this. Though I thank you for the correction on misses triggering counters; I had completely forgotten that. -
10-12-2015, 06:56 PMKuwagamisure but they would need an innate ~20% damage mitigation to make up for the armor loss, even before thinking about tank stance and/or cooldowns. Or a huge ass hp pool and healing received buff. Either way, the curreny state of the game is unfriendly for any tank not in heavy armor. Could change, though most likely won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As for the dodge thing, you have to remember that magic users have a lower accuracy cap so they can hit you more with the same level than physical monsters. Though all in all, it doesn't matter as raid mobs are overleveling you so dodging them hasn't been a thing since t4. Maybe A2, but I nevr witnessed it -
10-12-2015, 08:53 PMDererk
All I can say is with how many people are complaining that PLD dps is too weak.
If you make dancer a tank they will all change to Dancer dps too weak. -
10-13-2015, 03:40 AMArkenne
Didnt read more than the title:
Provoke:
Full Skill Rotation:
Bad Dancer Tank:
OTing around the boss:
MTing, boss PoV:
2 Dancer Tanks in one Raid party:
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10-13-2015, 10:27 PMMedicine
; -; quit making fun of the greatest class in the entire FF franchise, If they actually do release DNC I sincerely hope that it will be the same as in FFXI.
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10-13-2015, 11:16 PMFreyyyIt will not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medicine
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10-14-2015, 11:28 AMKali-ka
No it won't be the same...but they could ALMOST copy/paste it from XI and make it work for XIV
Already has tank/dps stances in the form of Fan/Saber dance
Steps could be its raid utility debuffs.
The flourish system is basically the prototype of WAR stacks
Drain samba = bloodbath
Violent flourish = stun
Only real challenge is to implement all of the waltzes since you probably don't want them to work from TP and in XI they were instacast and uninterruptible. -
10-14-2015, 11:40 AMIsiusI kinda really want to see dancer as a tank now after seeing these gifs. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Arkenne
...even if I don't get my bluemage tank, but still might be worth it. lol
Two Dancer tanks OP!!! New Meta!!! -
10-14-2015, 01:17 PMKathyz
What about a Stance toggle like Love dance, wich make the enemies Damage 10% of the damage they going to make against you and you recive 10% more defense while lossing 20% power or anithing new like, you are dacing so lets make all your GCD .30 secs longer? so you can let the dancer with low atack power with the stance but cover the diference with that and that 10% damage "reflection"
And other types of dances wich creates distraction to the nemies and bosses, like Flank dance, make the enemies at 5 yalms of distance take more damage for Flank position, and rear Dance for more damage for Rear, these effects can't use together and drain your mp in use (or maybe can use together but the MP drain its faster?). That can be cool xD -
11-09-2015, 02:32 AMheynowjose
I want this soooo bad. I hate tanking right now. Its a choice between 3 jobs that all basically look the same and act pretty much the same. Its so boring. At least dancer as a tank would look and feel different
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11-09-2015, 06:25 AMXyphon
Pugilist was able to evade tank just fine in 1.0. That's the whole reason haymaker existed in the first place. The biggest thing missing in ARR/HW is evasion stat/gear/materia. So there's no real way to stack up on it. Also since 2.0, fists of wind and featherfoot have both been nerfed heavily.
Dancer of XI wasn't just an evasion tank, but also a drain/heal tank. The biggest advantage they had was the party wide dance buffs, and the ability to store up for massive heals or esuna effects. I'd love to see something like this in 2.0, and Tanaka had it on his wish list:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...olos/ffxiv.png
Except, it looks like its weapon was a whip @_@ -
11-09-2015, 06:49 AMKuwagami
Bard => Musical.
Yeah, right xD -
11-09-2015, 07:13 AMCalypsxMy exact problem. Tank choices are super dull thematically in this game, at least in other mmorpgs I can usually find a light armored tank like Stalker in Wildstar and Monk in WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by heynowjose
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11-09-2015, 11:05 AMDuelle
As mentioned earlier, it wouldn't need to be about fully evading attacks. I'd probably draw from WoW brewmaster monks or Wildstar tank stalkers. The former had a mechanic that allowed it to receive less direct damage; it was an 80-20 split where you took 80% of the damage on hit and the remaining 20% over time. They also had a buff that they'd gain from using certain abilities that increases their evasion rate. The idea can certainly work here. We just need to know where to look for inspiration.
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11-09-2015, 11:50 AMAnova
I don't quite see how the tanks are the same. They certainly have similar functions: an enmity combo, a utility combo, a damage stance, a tank stance, a stun, group enmity, group area enmity, and then a couple unique buffs for their job. Any tank you make for this game is going to need those basic tools. If its aesthetics, that's your own thing. For me, it makes sense though for the person in heavy armor to be more survivable than the person wearing a bikini.
@duelle
That is an interesting tank idea and I'd like to see it implemented in ffxiv. The biggest concern is that the delayed damage tanks may eat in to healer dps times, which makes it a huge detriment to endgame groups and thereby unpopular in the meta. There's probably a few tricks and testing to find the best ratio of damage:delayed-damage, but it is something to be aware of when developing the idea. -
11-09-2015, 12:22 PMCalypsx
Dancer Lilisette shows us there is no need for heavy armor if they can't even touch you.
https://youtu.be/3eg_Xz-OFyI?t=1m10s
I forgot to mention Jedi Shadow in SWTOR is another light/medium armored tank in mmorpgs, the list goes on. -
11-09-2015, 05:13 PMShurrikhanI imagine it will end up with a balance and reception similar to Defiance's. Granted, a delay of damage increases eHP but by itself does not increase mitigation/healing efficiency. That said, this would almost certainly be paired with something else, or the evasion itself should have enough average benefit (it might well be that "something else").Quote:
Originally Posted by Anova
On other fronts there are two other possible additions/revisions I think would help:
1. [Variable Glancing Blows] Revise the system for Blocks, Parries, and Dodges to be dependent on and affect enemy accuracy and accuracy to have an analog/percentile effect on damage, rather than a pure "hit" or "miss".Make each "miss" a percentile dependent on the accuracy lacking, rather than having only 0% misses and 100% hits. Give Parries and Blocks both a 'Guard/Barrier' (a flat reduction of incoming damage and increase to personal Defense against said attack), and a 'Deflection/Evasion' component (reducing the accuracy of the enemy attack). Dodges normally carry only a 'Deflection/Evasion' component. (Crits,) Parries, Blocks, and Dodges are no longer categorically exclusive, and may stack. "Parry" stat replaced with "Guard" and "Deflection" stats. "Guard" increases the flat reduction, bonus to calculated defense, and the damage required to interrupt your casts "Deflection" increases the modifiers by which your own accuracy, AP, and weapon damage/block value may affect enemy accuracy. "Deflection" works as the go-to anti-tank-buster stat, and "Guard" as the smoothing/utility stat.
2. [Helpful hidden RNG dynamics] Dodges, blocks, and parries work on a hidden eHP-esque resource system. Proc chances vary according to urgency and remaining resource. (More resource used to proc the evasion type with the most remaining eHP that would most closely prevent you from dropping below 15% HP.)
(Note: they might also be able to make use, though to lesser degree, of the Critical Strike and Determination stats, though Skill Speed would be a bit more difficult to find a place here for. (See below.))Dodges, block, and parries each have / share [undecided] a hidden eHP resource that is generated over time and with each normal proc, but may be drained to force a proc to prevent crucial damage. Evasion/mitigation resources will be tapped into according to(1) the %HP that you would otherwise reach, (2) the %HP that would otherwise be lost, and (3) current remaining eHP in the resource. Evasion/mitigation type will be automatically selected according to each criteria, aiming to most closely avoid dropping into critical health with the least resource.
And, if you really want lightly armored tank jobs to shine, put a natural evasion reduction on upper-defense armor types and then boost base general evasion slightly and/or give back Dexterity its mitigation/evasion-embonusing effects.
As resource dwindles, overall proc chance and effects are reduced (at a lesser proportion).
The overall effect of this change is that evasion resources tend to go off more when you need them, but not necessarily more overall. Optimal use would revolve around relying on evasion/mitigation types only very occassionally, since there is no benefit for having excess resource, but proc chances and effects are somewhat reduced by having reduced resource. Inversely, though evasion/mitigation types will even then produce the same safety net as they do currently through more timely usage, working in the red will actually drop proc rates and efficiency beneath their current norms.
(Further, Critical Strike and Determination could also work well in this system, but so too could Skill Speed. Determination would increase overall efficiency, Critical Strike would have a chance to increase efficiency greatly, and Skill Speed could increase the speed at which resource is regenerated.)
---> That said, I still just want Dancer as a highly versatile hybrid melee support with a few ranged opportunities, who simply can tank for a time. -
11-09-2015, 07:32 PMFreyyyWow and they told me that FFXI was ugly. I find it quite good looking in this cutscene (yeah never played it and just watched a bunch of screenshots).Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypsx
A light armor tank would be awesome. There is one in a lot of MMOs and when it's done right, they are pretty good tank classes with no mitigation issues at all.