Stoneskin use.

OK, am I doing it right to keep applying stoneskin to anyone that losses this, even during boss fights?

Just came out of longstop but the boss fight was really pushing it since I actually ran out of MP(first time this has happened), possibly from all the esuna/stoneskinning. Not including the accidental medica lol... I need to move that.

just put it on at the start of the dgn, and before a boss... pretty meh other wise.

also if you know a tank buster is coming... you can try to get one on the tank before it lands

At earlier levels it can be a good idea, between heals or during downtime, to put it on the squishiest members of your party; usually the SMN or BLM if you have one. It used to be really good for keeping LNC/DRG alive through fights with magic damage before the armor fix.

Also, it's nice for putting on a tank or another player while you have Cleric Stance on if you know they won't take a *lot* of damage soon, but some and you are in the middle of applying DoTs or something on the boss.

Now that I think about it, it was pretty unwise to keep reapplying like that >.<. Doing it 6-7 times = 700MP(out of 1242). SIGH. I'm getting there though.

It's a pretty big waste of mp to try and upkeep all the time (during combat)

Only during combat use it if you need the shielding .
(e.g. If a tank buster is coming, or if someone has weakness/brink of death and there is imminent damage)

In combat I only reapply stoneskin to the tank. Out of combat I just stoneskin 2 the party.

WHM should use stoneskin as a part of the healing rotation. I don't believe AST and SCH need to use it as much.

I apply SS at start and after every pull on the way to next one. I feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll have some time b4 I need to heal anyone so I can dps in peace.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

WHM should use stoneskin as a part of the healing rotation.

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ahm, nope?
before HW, healing dmg already was more mp efficient then stoneskinning it, but now after the nerf from 18% to 10% (CNJ trait removed) it is only good for tank busters and before a fight. never use stoneskin in a fight without a serious reason to do so, it will just eat up your mana! that goes for AST, SCH and WHM alike

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Originally Posted by Morgan

I apply SS at start and after every pull on the way to next one. I feel much more comfortable knowing that I'll have some time b4 I need to heal anyone so I can dps in peace.

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Same. I pretty much keep up SS on everyone outside of bossfights so I can dps in peace. Of course, only if I have the leeway MP-wise.
In bossfights, I apply it once to everyone before the fight, but only reapply it on the tank for longer stance-switches.

I'm always kind of annoyed by healers who don't reapply Stoneskin during dungeon runs even though they neither are short on MP nor are doing anything else. Just seems lazy to me.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I'm always kind of annoyed by healers who don't reapply Stoneskin during dungeon runs even though they neither are short on MP nor are doing anything else. Just seems lazy to me.

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Between the fights I'm usually chasing the tanks and dps who have fire in their tail. Can't stop casting it because it risks accidentally pulling by the cast because the target was already pulling/attacking when the spell lands. And the amount it covers, especially after nerfs is negligible. Usefull for special situation but that about it. Now if people would stop running like there was a special bonus for speedy completion, then -maybe- I could SS them in mid dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Same. I pretty much keep up SS on everyone outside of bossfights so I can dps in peace. Of course, only if I have the leeway MP-wise.
In bossfights, I apply it once to everyone before the fight, but only reapply it on the tank for longer stance-switches.

I'm always kind of annoyed by healers who don't reapply Stoneskin during dungeon runs even though they neither are short on MP nor are doing anything else. Just seems lazy to me.

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If you're running dungeons at a regular pace, chances are the healer don't have time for that between pulls. I'd only take time reapplying with a particularly slow-moving party [excluding the tank who'll always get it before he runs]

I pretty much never bother unless Swiftcast or Lightspeed are up to Stoneskin on the move before the next pull.

I completely removed it in favor of Blizzard 2 on SCH a while ago and have never felt like something was missing.

Stoneskin is nice to have but you have to ponder its opportunity cost or lack thereof.

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Originally Posted by Sida

Between the fights I'm usually chasing the tanks and dps who have fire in their tail. Can't stop casting it because it risks accidentally pulling by the cast because the target was already pulling/attacking when the spell lands. And the amount it covers, especially after nerfs is negligible. Usefull for special situation but that about it. Now if people would stop running like there was a special bonus for speedy completion, then -maybe- I could SS them in mid dungeon.

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You can reapply SS on the tank just as the last enemy is about to die. Tank doesn't need healed during the last couple of seconds because non-combat regeneration will heal him fast enough between pulls.

Dps players can have their SS mid fight if they eat some damage.

Exactly like Reinha said. Reapply it for dps right when they lose it during the fight, reapply it for the tank just when the last monster dies (should be timed perfectly with regen running out too). If you did not have the time to do that because the pull was especially hard or you were very busy dpsing, Swiftcast/Lightspeed and you can apply it while the group is moving towards the next pull.

Before a boss fight, and before a tank burster if i have time to reapply it. That's it.

Stoneskin's stupidly expensive for what it does and outside of endgame raid environment, it has nearly no purpose. Unless players are getting blown away in a single attack unmitigated, you may just as well heal them up instead. Which is both more MP efficient as well as GCD efficient.

Alright, thanks everyone.

As an AST, I apply it on the tank before the very first pull, and use Swiftcast+Stoneskin to reapply it to the tank in between pulls. I try to apply it to the whole party before boss fights, but usually an overzealous, rushing tank puts the kibosh on that (I like to swap to nocturnal stance and bubble the party too... but I haven't had a tank wait the few seconds required for me to do that before a boss in a looong time).

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

you may just as well heal them up instead. Which is both more MP efficient as well as GCD efficient.

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Healing requires a healing-friendly stance or it takes a lot of MP AND time to get everyone up again. I prefer not having to switch out of dps stance all the time just to rescue people who refuse to move out of aoes and stuff. Stoneskin + regen is a very useful combo to circumvent stance switching :)
And if you are a healer who refuses to deal dmg, you have even more reason to keep SS up on everyone all the time, because you often have nothing to do anyway.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Healing requires a healing-friendly stance or it takes a lot of MP AND time to get everyone up again. I prefer not having to switch out of dps stance all the time just to rescue people who refuse to move out of aoes and stuff. Stoneskin + regen is a very useful combo to circumvent stance switching :)
And if you are a healer who refuses to deal dmg, you have even more reason to keep SS up on everyone all the time, because you often have nothing to do anyway.

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You have it the other way around; it takes more time to apply stoneskin on everyone - or even on one person for that matter - than to heal them up.

On single target instance, a melee would get a Stoneskin worth about 1300 points of damage. On an equally geared healer, a single Cure/Benefic/Physick would be worth about 3400 HP recovery. That's 2100 recovered than prevented at half the MP cost. In cases of Scholars and Astrologians that's also 0.5s less GCD waste
In case of AoE, let's say 4 targets, that's 5600 points of mitigation (18000 HP tank, 12000 HP healer, 13000 HP DPS) and takes 10 seconds to cast as a White Mage or 12 seconds as a Scholar or Astrologian. A single (ET) Succor, Helios or Medica is good for 2400 HP recovery each or 9600 HP spread over 4 targets and takes significantly less time to cast.

As for healers who refuse to deal damage, the point still stands that Stoneskin has an ridiculous cost for it's effectiveness and in non endgame raid, application of it is a waste of time unless it's to prolong your time in Cleric's Stance. Inability to switch out of Cleric's Stance and making healing "inefficient" is a player issue, not a class problem.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Inability to switch out of Cleric's Stance and making healing "inefficient" is a player issue, not a class problem.

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I never said I CAN'T switch out. I said I want to avoid doing it, because it's a dps loss when I do. The point isn't to have the whole group at full HP at all times. The point is to stay in cleric stance as long as possible before you have to switch back because it gets risky for someone. Let's go with the numbers you have up there - let's assume the mitigation is 1.3k dmg. That means even if he gets hit by something fairly hurting, the one who got hit still has 1.3k HP more than if there was no stoneskin. For most content that means the person has enough HP left so I can keep on dpsing without switching back. If I tried to heal them up WITHOUT switching out of cleric stance, it would take a lot longer and cost more MP because my heals are worth crap and heal like a few hundred HP in that case. So to apply the type of heal you talked about (3.4k cure/benefic/physick), I'd have to switch out of cleric stance first, heal them up, wait until I can switch back into cleric stance, and soon after have to switch out of it again as soon as someone gets hurt.
Yes, it's called stance dancing, but if you spend the entire time just switching around, you deal a lot less dmg than if you were able to stay in cleric stance for a prolonged amount of time.

And for healers who refuse to dps: they just lazily sit around on a huge pool of mana anyway without doing anything but waiting for some dmg to heal away, the LEAST they can do is use every beneficial skill possible.

TL;DR:
Stoneskin -> dps get hurt but not so bad you need to switch stance and heal them.
No Stoneskin -> dps get hurt enough that it's dangerous to not switch stance and heal them.
As simple as that.

You're not sticking to the point of the discussion. This was never about you

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You're not sticking to the point of the discussion. This was never about you

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No, but you made it seem like you were implying I'm unable to do it right.

Also, I'm sticking to the topic by saying how Stoneskin should be used: in a way that helps to maximize dmg without having anyone die if you are dealing dmg, or always if you don't have ANYTHING else to do if you are someone who doesn't deal dmg.

Yeah...should not be using it so much during fights. what everyone else is saying. you can get up stoneskin in between pulls, just have to know how to time it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

No, but you made it seem like you were implying I'm unable to do it right.

Also, I'm sticking to the topic by saying how Stoneskin should be used: in a way that helps to maximize dmg without having anyone die if you are dealing dmg, or always if you don't have ANYTHING else to do if you are someone who doesn't deal dmg.

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That's because you implied it in a sense that those unable to switch should re-apply stoneskin whenever:

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Healing requires a healing-friendly stance or it takes a lot of MP AND time to get everyone up again. I prefer not having to switch out of dps stance all the time just to rescue people who refuse to move out of aoes and stuff. Stoneskin + regen is a very useful combo to circumvent stance switching :)

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With my other post I mentioned the exact opposite:
It takes 5 stoneskins to rival 2 Cure/Benefic/Physicks. Which is also 4420 MP and 12,5 seconds (or 15 seconds untraited) spend on 5 stoneskins against 5 seconds GCD and 884 MP (706 for Astrologians). It's more of a time and mp loss using stoneskin mid battle without a valid reason. Which is the time and mp you could have spend on DPSing instead. To go back to the same post I just quoted you about:

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Stoneskin + regen is a very useful combo to circumvent stance switching :)

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You'd still need to switch out of cleric's stance here to make Regen worthwhile. So where is that "time saved" you mentioned? It's more time saving to cast a single Cure/Physick/Benefic rather than Two stoneskins.

Additionally, you can't get by by just casting stoneskin. You'll have to cast a cure at one point regardless. Stoneskin alone won't get anyone's HP up. Even with a Cure after a stoneskin, you could have just used a higher tier spell (Cure II) instead for less cost and half the GCD for a greater effect as well:
1300 damage mitigated + 3400 HP recovered for a stoneskin+cure, 2 spells for 1326 MP
5500 HP recovered with a Cure II/Benefic II in a single GCD for 884 MP or 2550 HP recovered and 2550 galvanize effect for Scholars in a single GCD for 1060 MP

Basically use it for tank busters. If youmneed something to facilitate stance dancing for dps, i find stacking regens on tanks to be more useful to keep them up whilst you as a healer dps, if they drop too low, drop clerics and hit them with an insta-cast ability (tetra, lustrate, essential dignity etc).

Stone skin is very mana inefficient to overuse in a boss fight, esp in end game raids.

A brilliant skill to pick up on and practise as a healer in dungeons is to time a stoneskin on the tank to land just as the last mob dies

The five second CD on cleric stance is very kind.

Stoneskin is used mostly before battle to give a few extra seconds in the beginning to dps. Works great with Adloquiem and Nocturnal Benefic and the precasting makes it essentially free.

In combat, Stoneskin should only be used if you're an SCH or AST who has topped off and already used a shield on a tank or other during a tank buster or other mechanic. WHM just needs to have them topped off. (Before applying Stoneskin, since they do not have access to another shielding skill.)

Paladins can also use it during combat to supplement healing, during stressful phases.

Using it on a party member with weakness, can help keep them up.

Lastly, casting it during invulnerable mechanics is also a good choice. Balancing your MP should be priority, but as long as you don't go too ham on it, you're fine. :3

Very huge for Pvp, just protect it from one Ilm punch etc with protect. Nothing more fun than being a marauder running around a wall or what, swift cast SS and then clobber whoever was chasing you while they're doing 0 damage XD

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

In combat, Stoneskin should only be used if you're an SCH or AST who has topped off and already used a shield on a tank or other during a tank buster or other mechanic. WHM just needs to have them topped off.

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Do elaborate why a white mage should just sit there till the damage comes while the other healer has to squeeze out 2 spells for each tank whenever a tank buster is applied for one.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

you can't get by by just casting stoneskin. You'll have to cast a cure at one point regardless. Stoneskin alone won't get anyone's HP up.

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There rarely is a situation in dungeon runs (and in my first post I already said I'm talking about them, not about trials and other 8 person content) where a group of monsters survives long enough to require SS AND healing. The goal is to have the dps survive until the last mob dies, after that their HP will regenerate by themself, no heals needed. Throwing out one SS or regen during the downtime of cleric stance after switching back to heal the tank is an efficient use of time:
tank heal + 1 heal that will maybe top off whoever got hurt (but will not protect him should he get hurt again, forcing you out of cleric stance even if the tank doesn't need healing)
VS
tank heal + SS on whichever person needs it (and therefore negating the reason to switch back early from the next cleric stance, resulting in more dmg dealt).
You don't need fancy numbers to see how the second one is more foresighted. And if the person ends up not getting hurt again, you have SS up for the next pull already and can use the time in between pulls for secondary actions (like explanations, card shuffling as an AST, etc.)
Basically, what it does is making the healing process more streamlined, allowing you to stay in dps stance longer and all of that for a small amount of MP more. Usually worth it.

Time efficiency doesn't always equal least amount of MP spent. I never saw someone run out of MP because of SS and I'm amazed the OP even managed to do that (although, as stated, it was in a bossfight where reapplying SS doesn't make sense because everyone is constantly getting hurt from room-wide aoes and the like). Just because healing costs a small amount of MP less than SS doesn't mean that will help the group to move forward faster.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Exactly like Reinha said. Reapply it for dps right when they lose it during the fight

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Originally Posted by Atoli

There rarely is a situation in dungeon runs (and in my first post I already said I'm talking about them, not about trials and other 8 person content) where a group of monsters survives long enough to require SS AND healing. The goal is to have the dps survive until the last mob dies, after that their HP will regenerate by themself, no heals needed. Throwing out one SS or regen during the downtime of cleric stance after switching back to heal the tank is an efficient use of time:
tank heal + 1 heal that will maybe top off whoever got hurt (but will not protect him should he get hurt again, forcing you out of cleric stance even if the tank doesn't need healing)

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It wasn't a case about in-between-pulls, now you're bringing it up out of nowhere while you yourself mentioned the re-application of stoneskin mid fight.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

tank heal + 1 heal that will maybe top off whoever got hurt (but will not protect him should he get hurt again, forcing you out of cleric stance even if the tank doesn't need healing)
VS
tank heal + SS on whichever person needs it (and therefore negating the reason to switch back early from the next cleric stance, resulting in more dmg dealt).

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If we were to assume application of stoneskin mid-battle - which was the whole issue of stoneskin being pointless in the first place - you forgot one thing. If no one takes damage after the initial damage goes off, any stoneskins cast mid combat is a GCD waste that could have been squeezed together with a single swiftcast stoneskin II (for White Mages) after combat. Even if they do take a hit, it still takes 2 stoneskins to get the same affect out of a single heal. Easier content has plenty of AoE damage that cannot be avoided, for a 4-player content that's four stoneskins. If a single Medica/Helios/(ET) Succor can recover the same amount as 2 stoneskins, that's 8 GCDs spend on stoneskinning an entire party twice that a single AoE heal can patch up in a single GCD.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

You don't need fancy numbers to see how the second one is more foresighted. And if the person ends up not getting hurt again, you have SS up for the next pull already and can use the time in between pulls for secondary actions (like explanations, card shuffling as an AST, etc.)

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Stoneskinning people randomly mid combat doesn't translate into "foresight". It's paranoia or OCD if anything. There's nothing outside Savage where any form of (un)avoidable attacks that will instantly kill anyone unless slightly mitigated. Even in A4 normal you can eat a perpetual ray and a yellow orb and still not die as a non-tank. Applying stoneskin on the main tank before Discoid in A4 is a much better example of foresight, but still pointless to cast as a single heal is still more MP and GCD efficient.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Time efficiency doesn't always equal least amount of MP spent. I never saw someone run out of MP because of SS and I'm amazed the OP even managed to do that (although, as stated, it was in a bossfight where reapplying SS doesn't make sense because everyone is constantly getting hurt from room-wide aoes and the like). Just because healing costs a small amount of MP less than SS doesn't mean that will help the group to move forward faster.

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This isn't only about time efficiency. Stoneskin is time inefficient AND MP inefficient. Spamming stoneskin over and over is equivalent to spamming Cure II, but with only a fraction of it's MP efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Do elaborate why a white mage should just sit there till the damage comes while the other healer has to squeeze out 2 spells for each tank whenever a tank buster is applied for one.

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Elaborating, I should say, that as a WHM doesn't have access to another shield, they should just top off their target before applying it, in preparation for a tank buster.

In dungeons: on the party at the beginning and on people at the end of & in-between pulls.

In raids: on your tank before tank busters, after you've topped off/shielded your tank, if you have time. Ex: In A1S there's time on sch to eye for an eye tank, heal up prey target just enough, then adlo, virus, and stoneskin your tank before the tank buster.

Nuff said

Using Stoneskin in dungeons before big hits is good too. Dusk Vigil comes to mind, when that Towering Oliphant marks someone, I usually Stoneskin the person marked and put Aspected Benefic/Regen (especially if the person is ME) because the damage will surely put him into critical.

As a PLD player, I make sure that I reapply it to myself or the DRK or WAR in my raid whenever the boss is doing some mechanic and it is untargettable. Damage mitigated, no matter how small, is still mitigation esp in this meta where tanks rarely go full fending, myself included.

I basically apply Stoneskin between fights and occasional lulls in damage during a boss fight. Just given its long cast time and the relative inefficency, it's always better to heal damage than cast Stoneskin.

While the tank gets most "healed" damage out of it, I fear it's more important to keep it up on yourself and DPS. When you and them take damage, it's nice to proactively heal a good chunk of the hit.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

As for healers who refuse to deal damage, the point still stands that Stoneskin has an ridiculous cost for it's effectiveness and in non endgame raid, application of it is a waste of time unless it's to prolong your time in Cleric's Stance. Inability to switch out of Cleric's Stance and making healing "inefficient" is a player issue, not a class problem.

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This is the whole point to use it outside of raids. It's more healer dps, both because tank has more health when going in combat and also because it keeps the damage dealers in good health so you don't have to hurry to heal them. Less time focusing on healing = more time focusing on dps. MP-efficiency should not be an issue in dungeons... I dunno why you and Atoli got into a debate when you are basically agreeing with each other.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

snip

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Because Atoli's about applying stoneskin on the entire party. I omited one detail there and that would be the timing of the application; during downtime.

You could argue the same about applying stoneskins on the entire party during the same downtime. Then the mp inefficiency of it still applies as well as it's ineffectiveness

Something about CS. Switching out of it doesn't incur CD. If you accidentally (or purposefully) drop it you can turn on right away. It can also be queued. If you execute it even well during previous cast, it falls of/gets on without delay between the casts. So yes. It is quite possible to drop your CS when still casting previous damage spell, cast your heal, then activate CS again during the heal cast time and cast your next damage spell with no lost GCDs whatsoever. However, it -has- cooldown the other way around, you can't drop it immediately when you have activated it.

Guess this constitutes part of the stance dance. Know how to weave it in between the casts to not loose time for the chance.

About usability of SS, tend to use it heavily where ever there are Nix type monsters. Their pull attack is mitigated with Stoneskin.

I almost forgot about that. Thanks. I WILL troll those frogs EVERY chance I get.