My statics current setup is PLD/WAR and SCH/WHM, pretty straight forwarded, but we had an issue of our tanks dying and now people seemed to argue about which healer should heal which tank.
While i have been a healer for a long time, i'm unaware of how healing exactly works for the different classes in XIV, so is anyone able to give me a clear insight which healer should be assigned to which tank and why?
Our warrior said this:
[2] nah thing is that ppl think that due to defiance giving +20% healing that the shields do more on a warrior
[2] which isnt even true
[2] it doesnt matter if i get a 20% bigger shield if i take 20% more dmg than a pld/drk
[2] and since i spend more time out of defiance than in it would be simply smarter to put the shields on the pld, who spends 90% of his time in shield oath to maximize their effectiveness. while the whm has the same output on me and the pld
[2] and quite simply a whm has an easier time healing a warrior than a sch would
Which healer to heal which tank?
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10-08-2015, 11:59 PMMacmaxiWhich healer to heal which tank?
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10-09-2015, 12:15 AMNigela
On raids as a sch i was always healing war, whm --> pld/drk. Never had problems with this setup.
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10-09-2015, 12:19 AMkarateorangutang
Well if we wanna be technical then actually WHM gets more mileage from WAR. Since a plethora of SCH's heals are abilities and not spells then they don't benefit from the 20% from defiance. Since almost all of WHM's primary heals are spells WAR get more mileage out of the cures.
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10-09-2015, 12:41 AMFoxyAreku
Scholar heals tanks almost exclusively with occassional succors to help the non-tanks, whitemage heals everyone else with occassional regens on tanks.
AST depends on what the other healer is.
I don't know why a group would divide tank healing, unless the tanks are just stupidly far apart for some reason. Sounds rather silly. -
10-09-2015, 12:44 AMMyrhn
As a sch I always healing the war is we divide the healing, and thats with war tanking in the dps stance.
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10-09-2015, 01:23 AMExiaQuanta
Well, in the case of shields and warrior, while its true that warrior takes 20% more damage but when they combine defiance with convalescence (and maaaybe montra) it is actually pretty OP with Scholar lol. In A3S, if our scholar crits an adlo on our warrior with some healing buffs, and spreads the shield with tactical deployment, it can mitigate the first half of phase 1.
Though in the end it shouldn't really matter which healer gets which tank, if tanks and healers are communicating during a fight, shouldn't really matter. -
10-09-2015, 02:11 AMLyrica_Ashtine
It hardly matters for white mages or Scholar which tank to heal. This topic has been discussed thoroughly a couple of times now, you'll probably get some results if you use the search function.
For Astrologian, however, it'll have a slight edge when healing the warrior; Synastry. -
10-09-2015, 02:25 AMVeve
Me and my WHM switch it up a lot, in AS1 I'll heal the DRK/PLD (I'm SCH), the WHM will heal the WAR. In AS2 I'll heal the WAR and the WHM heals the PLD/DRK and in AS3 I heal the WAR.
I think a lot of it is situational, and I don't think there is a right or wrong way to do it. Just whatever everyone's comfortable with. Communication and synergy between tanks and healer is absolutely crucial. -
10-09-2015, 02:33 AMDarkerOrange
WHM heals both tanks, SCH DPSs :D haha.
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10-09-2015, 02:43 AMzuzu-bq
Shielding healers (SCH and Nocturnal ASTs) usually heals WAR since Defiance will bring our the best on their shielding spells; its not only about old and new Lustrate. WHMs and Diurnal ASTs tend to get the tank with better defense out of the two tanks on their party since they'll be mostly assigned to heal AoEs mostly alone. WHM don't have much that easier time to heal WAR, he'll be overhling a lot because of Defiance most of the times. On the other side, shields won't over heal as much. Each player is a player and each party is a party, you need a sync between your healers and tanks so just chat and coordinate accordingly, there is no cake recipe for it.
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10-09-2015, 03:05 AMDarkerOrange
In all seriousness though, if both healers do nothing but heal then you are going to have a ridiculous amount of overhealing anyway.
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10-09-2015, 03:10 AMMacmaxi
Yes, i left out those things because i feel by now it belonged to the basics. Our Warrior is thinking how healing is best distributed so he gets the best uptime of deliverance. He argues that if the WHM does most of the healing, the SCH can also have more time for DPS. It's dependant on the group obviously, but maybe you guys know something i don't cause i'm not well versed with the ins and outs of all 4 classes.
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10-09-2015, 03:11 AMkarateorangutangI'm not a healer main so correct me if I'm wrong here.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
WAR, DRK, and PLD would get exactly equivalent mileage out of a adlo heal. If a adlo crits for 1k then it puts up a 2 k shield on both PLD and DRK, for WAR this would be 1200 and 2400 respectively. Now, PLD and DRK would take damage tank stance 20% slower giving an eHP gain that is exactly equivalent.
The only caveat would be deployment tactics. In which I agree that WAR would be the better candidate for. -
10-09-2015, 03:23 AMDante_V
If your tanks are dying and your warrior is admitting to being out of tank stance while learning progression content then that's part of the reason right there. They should be learning the fight first along with mechanics and the ins and outs or "safe points" and then after hitting enrage figure out how to modify those strategies to improve dps overall. The second your team wipes dps becomes irrelevant unless the wipe was caused by a dps check failure.
As far as which healer to which tank, it's completely subjective to the healers playing style and ability. The classes are such that it should be ideally interchangeable if they are played correctly. -
10-09-2015, 03:33 AMzuzu-bqTaking advantage of their defensive stances, DRK and PLD can survive a bit better with Regen while WHM/DiAST heals the party. Also, considering the shielding healer will be doing some dps while the main healer actually heals as a convenience that healer is also assigned to main tank since the off tank (mostly WAR) won't be needing heals during most parts of the fight. But like some of us said on this thread, this is just a method most healers got comfortable doing so, its not a rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
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10-09-2015, 03:36 AMkarateorangutangDoes WAR not got a 20% healing bonus from HoT's? I've never bothered to check to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
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10-09-2015, 03:42 AMVelox
The difference in shielding is negligible in the long run. Now that Lustrate no longer scales with max HP, it doesn't really matter which healer heals which tank.
For example (using arbitrary values for the sake of math), let's say a WAR 16k HP with defiance on (receiving 20% more healing). A SCH casts Adlo that crits and heals for 3600 (thanks to defiance). The shield would be 7200 EHP in strength. Now let's say an enemy auto-attacks for 1k damage a hit. On the WAR, ~7 of those attacks will be completely nullified.
Now let's say a PLD has 15k HP with shield oath on (receiving 20% less damage). A SCH casts Adlo that crits and heals for 3000. The shield would be 6000 EHP in strength. Now let's say an enemy auto-attacks for 800 damage a hit (thanks to shield oath). On the PLD, ~7 of those attacks will be completely nullified.
That being said, generally it's better for a WHM to heal PLD simply due to the increased mana management a PLD grants a WHM. PLD has a greater number of defensive cooldowns that further reduce incoming damage. It also has access to Hollowed Ground, which completely removes the need for healing. Because of this, although the healing aspect of both tanks are the same, PLD is more friendly to WHM's limited MP pool. SCH, with its near limitless MP, can spend more curing WAR. -
10-09-2015, 03:42 AMYaichiro
Your Warrior is correct but for a different reason. It doesn't matter which healer heals the warrior as long they are using SPELL based healing i.e. cure and physicks. Most people here neglected SKILL based healing which has been introduced by the expansion. Warrior's defiance increases SPELL based heals by 20% but does nothing for SKILL based healing which means all tanks will receive the same healing potency from SKILL based heals but Paladins and Dark Knights has their 20% mitigation which makes SKILL based heals more efficient. Lustrate is a core healing action for Scholars and believe it or not it is in fact SKILL based healing which means more gains would be obtained if it was used on a Paladin or Dark Knight.
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10-09-2015, 03:45 AMkarateorangutangYeah this was my point earlier in the post. WHM has the edge on WAR based solely on lustrate being a critical heal for them. It is very close to being negligible though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
On the flipside though deployment tactics with adlo is a win on WAR due to everyone in range benefiting from the healing bonus. -
10-09-2015, 03:47 AMVeloxThat is true, but you also have to take into account the fairy, which uses spell-based healing if I remember correctly. This makes up for that deficit that Lustrate introduces on WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaichiro
In the end, the difference is negligible. -
10-09-2015, 03:55 AMCidel
Well, this certainly is an interesting topic.
Personally, I remember strats for Bismark EX that had healers responsible for one of the tanks during the sanuwa add phase. As an AST (in diurnal) I used to loath watching WARs and would avoid them if I had the option; their HP just tanked so much more rapidly than PLDs (and depending on how good they were, DRKs). It always seemed better to have SCHs focusing on them. Then again, this was before AST got their meaningful buff and felt like a handicapped healer to begin with, but WARs always felt like the tank I struggled the most on AST in diurnal to keep alive. Don't really notice it so much now. -
10-09-2015, 03:55 AMzuzu-bqThe thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velox
But really, you guys think too much on hps numbers. It also depends a lot besed on cds used and wich type of damage tanks will be taken contantly anyways. -
10-09-2015, 03:57 AMkarateorangutang
The game is pretty balanced when it comes to tank healer relationships.
I don't think i've ever felt a difference. -
10-09-2015, 06:06 AMDarkmoonVael
Used to be SCH on WAR always. Got more milage out of old 25% lustrate and SCH mitigation helped make up for the WAR lack of mitigation in 2.x. Now its pretty much with heal how your raid group is comfortable. I still heal the WAR on my SCH in savage, deployed adlo from defiance WAR is <3, and i find it easier to recover a WAR from holmganging tank busters than the WHM (more frequent resources to do so without impacting mana too much).
I find the SCH burst healing capability better to handle a stance dancing WAR whilst also stance dancing myself as SCH. This is also factoring in the current meta of WHM/AST doeng the majority of raid healing with SCH heal/dps. SCH can spend more of its resources on WAR, leaving the WHM to handle PLD/DRK and rest of the raid. -
10-09-2015, 12:45 PMzuzu-bqThis is what I was thinking, but I'm terrible expressing myself. Resources are the name of the game when talking about healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael
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10-09-2015, 11:22 PMTwilite
WAR for me mostly, because that's the only tank job I play and understand a little. So I know healing them makes them take hits like a turtle.
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10-09-2015, 11:55 PMkarateorangutang
Cool, well I stand pretty much corrected then. I would have assumed WHM to be a bit better for WAR, but I guess the consensus is opposite. I'll have to have our raid group switch it around once and see if if changes anything. Guess this is why I play tank and not healer lol.
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10-10-2015, 03:40 AMLyrica_AshtineIf you really want to nitpick about the smallest things, for pure spell base it wouldn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
Paladins take 20% less damage, theoretically increasing their durability by 25% - For clarity, if you'd only deal 80% damage of your original 100%, you'll need to deal an additional 20% damage to bridge the difference. 20% of 80% is 25%.
Warriors take the full brunt and receives 20% more healing, but storm's path included they also take 10% less damage. They also have more practical self healing capacity than Paladins, but less passive mitigation (shield block)
Effectively:
It doesn't matter much for White Mage which one to heal in this case.
For Scholars as well; Adloquium on a Paladin is more effective as paladins take less damage in Shield Oath. A warrior receives more healing and thus a bigger chunk of mitigation.
If we were to look beyond spell based healing:
Lustrate may be used more frequently by a scholar and is unaffected by Defiance. It also recovers a bigger percentage on a paladin compared to a warrior - If they both have the same gear, that is.
For just this, it makes more sense for Scholars to heal Paladins and White Mages to heal Warriors
There is another thing to consider, however:
Popular Warrior meta involves a near permanent Deliverance tanking style. This completely negates whatever was considered before. But if the Paladin (or Dark Knight for that matter) tanks in Sword Oath/off-Grit it balances it off again. Thus previous consideration applies once more.
Last thing to consider:
The scholar's healing kit is more expensive for it's potency (bar Physick) compared to a White Mage's or Astrologian's kit. Especially Adloquium (1060 MP) and Lustrate (You could argue that 1 stack's worth 884 MP). While they have the better MP recovery tool compared to the other healer, don't think their MP pool is bottomless. If they're expected to keep their own tank up and contribute damage, they'll run out of MP quicker than any healer. So this particular gem isn't too far off:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkerOrange
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10-10-2015, 11:35 AMEisenhower
I have a question relating to PLD/DRK and damage shields of any kind: Is damage mitigation from tanking stances or from defensive abilities such as Rampart or Foresight applied before or after shield reduction?
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10-10-2015, 11:53 AMLyrica_AshtinePretty sure they're calculated one after another. Meaning: Whatever damage goes through one form of mitigation, that value will be treated as the absolute for the next. If it was additive you could even get healed at one point/Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisenhower
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10-11-2015, 01:13 PMGreven
Selene is the best healer for Warriors.. nuff said >.>
PS. Benediction is porn for Dark Knights.