The Warrior of Light: Plot Device, Mary Sue or A legitamate charatcer

Wow, it's been awhile since I posted on this board.

Anyway I wanted to discuss the role of the Warrior of Light in the grand scheme of things and if you think they are a well rounded character or a plot device (and why you think that)

WoL is a gun. The good guys point you at the bad guys and the bad guys die. Then when the good guys get caught off guard they forget to use their gun and you stand there with your mouth hanging open.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Wow, it's been awhile since I posted on this board.

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Welcome back!

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I wanted to discuss the role of the Warrior of Light in the grand scheme of things and if you think they are a well rounded character or a plot device (and why you think that)

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On the WOL as a general concept? In my opinion, as games have become the vessels of complex settings and narratives, there's just not the same place in the world for the "faceless hero" as there used to be. Final Fantasy doesn't even pretend to let you name your characters or give them personalities anymore; those days are long gone. Except... that's what an MMO is unless they relegate you to a sidekick in your own adventure (which some actually do).

I think the Warrior of Light is just Square Enix seizing the opportunity to return to the ways of old, where the hero was just... the hero. You decide their names and roles, you imagine their personalities, you project whatever thoughts you want onto their stoic nods and weapons draws. It's at the same time a blank template begging for meaning and the main character of the story.

How the WOL and their powers as a narrative mechanic end up being utilized in the grand grand scheme of things, I'll have to reserve comment on until the end, but for now, it's nice to have an opportunity to experience Vintage Final Fantasy - chosen by the crystal to wander the land and kick the arse of everything they've been putting bandaids over for the last several millenia until inevitably we slay some gods and take the reins of history back for man.

Whether it's a love letter to the past or a generic oversimplification of a hero, these are debates for wise men with skinny arms.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I wanted to discuss the role of the Warrior of Light in the grand scheme of things and if you think they are a well rounded character or a plot device.

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The TL;DR version of Anonymoose's reply is that it's entirely up to you, the player, to decide if the WoL is just a tool or a person in his or her own right.

It's difficult to describe the WoL as a "well-rounded character" when the game doesn't give the character that many opportunities to make moral choices. Simply put, FFXIV isn't that kind of game.

But that doesn't prevent you from rationalising the choices the WoL was forced to make, and to adapt them to your role-playing ideas. I know I have, and I haven't had the same angst over the controversial ending of patch 2.55 as many other players apparently had.

I think it would be more useful, to consider how the WoL relates to the overarching themes of the story. The story, to me, is about ideology and belief, and how things can easily go awry when they are taken to extremes. Within this context, everyone is trying to find an "answer", a way out of the "cycle none can break".

The answer, unfortunately, is elusive. More importantly, no one can claim with any certainty that his or her "answer" is definitely right. In the end, it boils down to faith.

I like to think of the WoL as an empty slate upon which this contest of ideas is played out. In the absence of certainty, he or she acts purely out of faith in the people who guide and direct him. Faith includes doubt or, rather, the ability to forge ahead in spite of doubt. How you choose to role-play that doubt would go a long way towards making your WoL more "real" to you.

I hope that made sense. ;)

I think they walk a fine line in allowing the character to be yours while having it fit the narrative they built. Certianly compared to other MMOs FF14 allows you very little movement in your characters nature. Your a hero. They allow some cosmetic properties open for personal 'head canon' but in the end they sit as the central character in a set narrative.

As for the WoL's role in the story? I think they have done pretty well. The WoL isn't a Mary Sue just by virtue of how often things don't work out. Mary Sues don't have what happened to the WoL had happen to them at the end of 2.55. The WoL is certainly very powerful and is effectively the champion of one side of a frankly divine conflict but its handled well cause in many ways the WoL is still pretty down to earth.

For now I'd call the WoL a legitimate character. We certainly aren't sideline characters.

I actually like it.
It feels more like you mean something in the story compared to other MMOs where you are sometimes just an nameless sidekick to central lore characters.

In the strictest sense of the word, yes, we are the protagonist hero of the story and a character.

If you want my personal opinion, our claim to both of those titles is shaky at best.

For most of the story, we're just an unbreakable weapon the more influential people in the region point at whatever's threatening them this week. Amalj'aa going to summon Ifrit? Throw the Warrior of Light at them! Kobolds upset because the Limsans broke a land treaty and threatening to summon Titan? Throw the Warrior of Light at them! Ixal summoned Garuda? Throw the Warrior of Light at her! Garleans stepping up their activities? Political strife in the region? Millennium-long war against a sadistic dragon dating back almost to a country's founding?! Yep, just toss the Warrior of Light in that direction and it'll be resolved!

Nobody asks how we feel or what we want. They just assume we're complicit in their actions and we do kind of agree to go along with it (*stoic nod*). Still, aside from a few lines at the beginning and end of 2.0, we have almost no opportunities to define our character. Hell, at one point Alphinaud jokes that if someone disagrees with his option he'll just have "his trusty Warrior of Light box their ears." (I know it's a joke, but most jokes have some measure of truth in them.)

We are a silent protagonist and flat character. I know it's a throwback to early titles (technically, I and III are the only Final Fantasy titles with silent, nameless protagonists) and a limitation of the MMO genre. Still, while my character does a lot of badass things, she is still just a tool to be used by the important people. Some people will point out that in MMOs the player character tends to be an accessory to the big lore characters. This is, for most intents and purposes, true even here: while we are Hydaelyn's chosen, we still have no real will of our own and just take orders from big lore characters or follow them around. Even at the end of 3.0, when all our friends and allies are occupied keeping the Garleans off our back, we still have Midgardsormr to give us orders. We have common goals, and the beginning of 2.0 does allow you to decide what your reason for coming to Eorzea is, but outside of that we're blank slates with no character - just a weapon to point at threats.

... unless you do the DRK 30-50 line, where for 20 glorious levels your character is explored. But that's another topic.

Despite being tremendously powerful and successful, I still wouldn't call the Warrior of Light a Mary Sue / Marty Stu. To qualify for that they have to have actual character... and, despite our best efforts, don't succeed at everything they attempt the same way that character archetype does. (We can pick up most any fighting style in a matter of moons, where it probably takes years of study and training for others, but that's just because the Blessing of Light is hax.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... unless you do the DRK 30-50 line, where for 20 glorious levels your character is explored. But that's another topic.

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Glorious indeed. Definitely sums up my head canon about my how my character feels a lot of the time.

I mostly feel as though our character is the plot device to make things happen. I don't necessary feel like the sidekick to the major lore characters, rather when they all turn and look at me to fix things when some major new threat is brought up, I feel more like they're staring at me like a dog with a leash in it's mouth. Helpless without me to do things for them.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(We can pick up most any fighting style in a matter of moons, where it probably takes years of study and training for others, but that's just because the Blessing of Light is hax.)

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I'd like to point out that Job leveling is just as Easy in Heavensward (if not easier) than it was in ARR, then again I doubt thatpeoplw owuld tkae the time to level alts during MSQ so..

I guess as we trudge through the lore desert between major patches this discussion is bound to pop up more than once.

From my own experience, there are one or three places (yes, including that one that shall eat away at my soul until the end of time) where I feel our presence does more harm then good.

We're meant to be the hero, that shining beacon of hope, inspiring example for us all, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. In some places, though, I feel like an enabler. Like my presence is allowing those around me to take the easy way out, because I'm the invincible hero capable of righting all wrongs. The people around me don't need to take control of their lives or evaluate their own potential, because ultimately I'll be taking care of things either way. It comes across as being better for everyone for them to resign themselves to just leaving it to me.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the characters we meet end up losing out on the depth they could have had in a proper stand-alone work because the MMO story needs to make our presence work and continue appealing to players as the power fantasy that, for all its recent pretensions, it still very much is.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I'd like to point out that Job leveling is just as Easy in Heavensward (if not easier) than it was in ARR, then again I doubt thatpeoplw owuld tkae the time to level alts during MSQ so..

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You're wrong there. Some people do level multiple classes at the same time. Very few level all of them (but I've seen at least 1 player level every class, gatherer and crafters included, as they progressed in the story). I also called her crazy.

Anyway, my personal thoughts on the Warrior of Light is just some embarrassing title an Elezen teen stuck to me, much like that emo "sword of darkness" name he tried to stick me with in ARR. As for the whispers from Hydaelyn, that's just some kind of delusion or something sent from the Ascians to make me complacent. There's thousands of other adventurers better than me in the world anyway. I mean, I need to fight in a team against Titan and the others, while others can do it solo.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Cilia about the hole thing about "that our character doesnt want to do this but he has no choice, beacuse if not the world would be destroy, etc" ( dont doesnt mean I do not agree on what we saw on the DRK quests, it was really my favourite was. I totally agreed with you on the thing about "weapon of light" . I just do not agreed in that we are Hydaelyn's puppet)
You need to think on your character's point of view. For example ( mine apologies, is the best example I could think of ). Based on some religions, what would be if God hymself ask you do an important mission? I mean is not more or less the same thing here? Yes, we have the hole debate of "why me", well if your character has not realise of the power he was, I cannot think on another thing of why he is the choosen one.

Another thing is that I'm sure, and I hope, that on a not so distant future our character will be leader, we will be leading men instead of following orthers. As you well saw, we are suffering this transformation on heavensward.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I like to think of the WoL as an empty slate upon which this contest of ideas is played out. In the absence of certainty, he or she acts purely out of faith in the people who guide and direct him. Faith includes doubt or, rather, the ability to forge ahead in spite of doubt. How you choose to role-play that doubt would go a long way towards making your WoL more "real" to you.

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I actually rather like the "blank slate" way that the WoL is portrayed. It does force you to fit the narrative, but it leaves a lot of the detail up to you. I don't roleplay per se, but I do have some loose headcanons for my character. Some days he'd rather hawk his wares in the markets or go dig up some rare collectible and spend the day BS'ing with Rowena, but he understands that there's things only he can do (as well as things that are expected of him even if other people could do them) and they don't necessarily happen according to his itinerary. There's maybe some well-hidden begrudgement or disappointment behind that stoic nod (especially in the case of the more menial tasks), but he consoles himself by doing whatever he likes when there's no impending Apocalypse (or petty fetch quest) to take care of. Basically, I enjoy multiple facets of the game and that's reflected with how I view my character's IC motivations. :3

Nothing especially important to do? I can totally see him leaving a note in the FC house: Going fishing on the Thaliak River for a few days. Please don't burn the house down while I'm gone, because we just redecorated and Momma Dhalmel (a nickname given to a Duskwight White Mage who is one of the FC officers) will quite possibly kill you all. I'll have a lot of paperwork to do if she does that.

I guess I just like to view my character as being as well-rounded as the number of jobs I have leveled up would indicate. :3

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I guess as we trudge through the lore desert between major patches this discussion is bound to pop up more than once.

From my own experience, there are one or three places (yes, including that one that shall eat away at my soul until the end of time) where I feel our presence does more harm then good.

We're meant to be the hero, that shining beacon of hope, inspiring example for us all, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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I def feel like I should of done more with that aspiring adventurer who lost her fiance and went mad

Rant On: The use of Mary Sue as short hand for "poorly written protagonist" with the undercurrent assumption that "power equal bad writing" needs to die in a fire. Mary Sues as a concept only work when describing fanfictions. It cannot apply to original work and in trying to apply it for such you get any character that is "Strong" in setting people as "is that a Mary Sue?" Stop using it outside of fanfics it doesn't work. Rant off.

The WoL is a cypher and written as such, s/he is a visual for the players to experience the story which is as much game play as the cut scenes.

I just think we all work for the Adventure's Guild & are nothing but "Merc's-for-hire" (gota get a steady paycheck somehow hence why all quests give us Gil or something we want) as for MSQ we get some "special power" that seams semi-useless (cept for the anti-tempering field) and we got sent the Scions way by our employer long ago & just never learned to say no when they keep giving us money each quest/task... thou won't stop us from grumbling about it at any point in time.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Nobody asks how we feel or what we want.

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Not directly. One of the things I did really appreciate about Heavensward, though, is that we did get some choice dialogues. That, in turn, let NPCs show some sensitivity to our feelings and desires, or those we project onto our protags.

Of course, everything you say is still basically true and, by its nature, the story is still very much on rails, but (at least for me) it helped ease the feelings on confinement a bit.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Some days he'd rather hawk his wares in the markets or go dig up some rare collectible and spend the day BS'ing with Rowena, but he understands that there's things only he can do (as well as things that are expected of him even if other people could do them) and they don't necessarily happen according to his itinerary. There's maybe some well-hidden begrudgement or disappointment behind that stoic nod (especially in the case of the more menial tasks), but he consoles himself by doing whatever he likes when there's no impending Apocalypse (or petty fetch quest) to take care of.

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Not necessarily specific to FFXIV but... Sometimes I kind of wonder if any RPG heroes might end up not unlike Ender of Ender's Game.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

. It cannot apply to original work.

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I am going to disagree with this.
I'd highly suggest reading Rhapsody: Symphony of the Ages for a perfect example. We, unironically, have a half-blood Elf who becomes the most beautiful woman in the world by walking through a rebirthing fire, (which also somehow makes her regain her virginity) and causes most people to fall in love with her at first sight through her beauty alone. When she is selfish, nothing is ever her fault, but the fault of everyone around her. She literally can do nothing wrong in the eyes of the author.
And this is only within the first 200 pages of the first book of the series.

I do agree with your point that being powerful shouldn't necessarily be considered "bad."

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Rant On: The use of Mary Sue as short hand for "poorly written protagonist" with the undercurrent assumption that "power equal bad writing" needs to die in a fire. Mary Sues as a concept only work when describing fanfictions. It cannot apply to original work and in trying to apply it for such you get any character that is "Strong" in setting people as "is that a Mary Sue?" Stop using it outside of fanfics it doesn't work. Rant off.

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Objection! There's no actual consensus, and the trope as described here applies variably to Minfilia, Moenbryda, G'raha, Ysayle, and even the Warrior of Light, in spite of most of them being canon characters. The Canon Sue term, however, applies mainly to deliberate self-insert characters regardless of their characteristics, which the Warrior of Light technically is as well.

I think the list of characters you provide there just proves how absurd the term "Mary Sue" has become and proves jomoru's point that it's basically applied to anyone that is strong. I mean... Odysseus would be a worse offender than any of those and he's sort of the foundation of fictional writing.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think the list of characters you provide there just proves how absurd the term "Mary Sue" has become and proves jomoru's point that it's basically applied to anyone that is strong. I mean... Odysseus would be a worse offender than any of those and he's sort of the foundation of fictional writing.

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Minfilia: totally informed usefulness, but fawned over by everyone, and is also "special" in some almost totally informed way, sacrifices herself for no defined reason.
Moenbryda: shows up out of nowhere, is far more useful than our current companions, is immediately loved by everyone, but dies beautifully to reinforce how much better she was than everyone else.
G'raha: shows up basically out of nowhere, has a vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, and pulls a stunt at the end of CT that is both totally selfish yet framed as being our fault, and just reinforces how much better he was than the rest of us.
Ysayle: heel-face-turns out of nowhere but is immediately accepted as "one of us," vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, ship tease with a popular male character, and, again, sacrifices herself beautifully as Alphinaud and the others remark at how wonderful she was.
Warrior of Light: shows up out of literally nowhere, is naturally loved by everyone, has a Swiss army superpower that only grows more powerful, and is praised as some great self-sacrificing hero in spite of being the only character who actually cannot come to any sort of lasting harm.

Seeing the pattern yet? It's not the power itself, so much as how it is portrayed, and unfortunately most of the "powerful" characters we've met fall into the same basic mold. For contrast, the Grand Company leaders manage to be powerful without invoking the points above. Even Alphinaud, who was FFXIV's Westley Crusher for a pretty good stretch, has been brought down to a much more compelling level of normal, so we certainly know the writers are capable of creating more believably nuanced characters then they have been.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

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Fenral, you and G'raha need to ifx your differences

Seriously im gonna explote if I hear yo saing "G'raha is a..."

again XD

....Not even gonna argue Minfilia (I hate her) but:

Moenbryda: Out of nowhere? No. We know where she comes from. And she had a history with Urianger. I wouldn't say 'loved' by the others, just accepted because of said scholarly origins (Actual plot background explaining it! Not something a Sue would have). She was pretty much a plot device, yeah the sacrifice was a bit schlocky, but Mary Sue is a stretch. One of the more accepted definitions of Mary Sue is that all their specialness isn't developed by plot and is there inexplicably. Big fail on this count.
G'raha: Better than the rest of us? Other than that apparently even Allagan royalty can't resist catboys... there's not that much notable about him. Another plot device. Some poor writing with the conclusion, to be sure. Mary Sue? More like one-trick pony.
Ysayle: Well Estinien & Ishgard as a whole isn't so accepting. WoL, on the other hand, seems to readily accept heel-face-turns from anyone. There's a fair bit of plot around her rebels and summoning Shiva because they idealize what they think she stood for. Powerful yes, but again there's plot/background/lore to explain it. And Heavensward plot in particular develops in the direction of how it's not all she thought it was.
Warrior of Light: The "shows up out of nowhere" is just a narrative tool to allow players to headcanon their own story. Not loved by everyone at first; s/he has to work their way up and earn it. Again, plot/story development here. And even then there's plenty that resent you (including certain Syndicate that try to frame you!), although the story does take the 'love the WoL' part a bit far. Plot armor is pretty much standard; protag has to make it to the end, and MMOs don't have a definite end.

Now I do think you point out some good issues. I just don't think "Mary Sue" (or "Canon Sue" or similar terms) is the right label. (Although one certainly can stretch it to fit anything).

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Fenral, you and G'raha need to ifx your differences

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I'd love to get a chance to, really, but it's not my call. Mostly included him there so people wouldn't accuse me of not targeting my favorites. Everyone has unreasonable attachments somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Now I do think you point out some good issues. I just don't think "Mary Sue" (or "Canon Sue" or similar terms) is the right label. (Although one certain can stretch it to fit anything).

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Well, Tropes Are Tools. Fact of the matter is, a bunch of our companions manage to fit into the same envelope that Mary Sues (at least as defined on TVTropes) classically fall into. Can it be done well? Of course. Should it have been done in FFXIV as much as it already has been? Debatable. Do I hope most if not all of them will one day be taken in genuinely compelling and original directions? Of course, but right now, it is what it is. Maybe there is a better word to describe it, but I dunno what it is.

And the TVTropes Mary Sue page spends literally pages talking about how the term has become nearly meaningless because it's so ill defined and how widely overapplied it is. I don't think there's a High Fantasy or Epic protagonist that wouldn't fall into some of those Sue traits. Somewhere else on that site it also speaks more generally how tropes themselves are not actually a bad thing.

Personally, I'd just attack the problems individually. Far-reaching but meaningless terms don't really add to the discussion until you get into the details anyway (as you did). Yep, Moenbryda was a plot device. Yep, the handling of CT's ending was awful. But there have been threads talking about those two example issues, let's keep doing that. Just saying we've got too many sues doesn't help anyone avoid making the same pitfalls.

Oversimplified, a Mary Sue (Marty Stu) is a character that can do anything better than anyone else and is universally loved despite his/her flaws. Everyone loves him/her no matter how abrasive s/he is, and nothing is ever his / her fault.

Applied to XIV characters:

Minfilia: pretty close. Nobody seems to dislike her but the villains, and she's oft lauded as a valuable member of the Scions despite being just a manager. Has close ties with the leaders of the city-states despite being head of a(n admittedly benevolent) paramilitary organization. No glaring character flaws beyond her lack of combat abilities, which nobody seems to care about.

Moenbryda: Ehh... despite seeming composed most of the time, comes across as a bit hotheaded (e.g. attacking Nabiales) and is not as capable a combatant as the Warrior of Light. Otherwise, not too far off; is introduced as a familiar, well-known and beloved figure with the right tools and knowledge to solve our present dilemma. Wouldn't say her death was meant to reinforce her superiority (or how she was too good for this world), but as a product of that hotheadedness (attacking Nabriales... again) leading to her fatal wounding and having her choose to do something useful with her already-spent life (like Louisoix intended to). Either way, is repelled and offed rather easily by an Ascian, so not really a Mary Sue.

G'raha: really just a plot device for the Crystal Tower side-story. Introduced as a trickster and just happens to be extremely relevant to the plot, but ultimately makes a boneheaded move against the wishes of literally everyone present. Not enough character to judge?

Ysayle: performs a High Heel-Face Turn, but still isn't trusted and is disliked by Estinien through most of 3.0. Has the Echo like the Warrior of Light, but uses it for the opposite of its intended purpose (summoning a Primal and intensifying the Dragonsong War). Doesn't think enough and bases her ideals on a fragment of a memory. Transforms into Shiva in full view of the Gration, giving the Garleans reason to intensify their invasion of Eorzea, and is then shot down after crippling the super-dreadnought. Characters are sad she dies, but it's because they lost a comrade they came to know during the story, not just because it's Ysayle.

Warrior of Light: pretty hard to argue. Almost universally loved and accepted, has no enemies but the villains, succeeds at most endeavors, and can pick up any combat style in a matter of moons where it would probably take NPCs years of study and/or training. Still, not everybody likes you; if you start out in Gridania some Wood Wailers act like jackasses while you're talking to Mother Miounne, and let's not forget that Teledji Adeledji saw us as an obstacle to be removed from his path. While we are invincible in the narrative, a fair number of job trainers are... less than pleasant until we earn their respect (lookin' at you, Geva), so it's not like we just show up and are treated as the best thing since sliced bread all the time.

I suppose the make-or-break point will be seeing how Mide from the Alexander story plays out. If she heroically sacrifices herself somehow to remove herself and Alexander from the story, but not before convincing Cid and the rest (bonus points for us stoically nodding) that her idealized Alexander is, in fact, flawless, and it was only the bad people doing bad things that made it seem otherwise, we will have not only a total carbon copy rehash of CT, but yet another example of... whatever character type it is we're discussing that isn't technically a Mary Sue.

Ultimately the problem is that the game cannot assume you have done anything but the MSQ. Everything else is optional, so having side-story characters show up or be referenced further down the line is out of the question. It's just easier to kill them off or have them leave the narrative (as Alisae does) than have to come up with a way to have them come back after "their story" is already finished. The status quo must be preserved, which is probably why Nanamo ended up still alive after 2.5.5's climax. You could get a line or two, and usually only in other "side" content (e.g. Rammbroes mentioning NOAH during the SMN 50+ quest if you finished the World of Darkness), but that's about all I would expect.

Will Mide be killed off while waxing about how her ideal Alexander was perfect, and it's only because the Illuminai perverted it that things went wrong? Too early to say. Chances aren't really in her favor, though. The problem is that when an NPC is made for a specific sub-plot, and then that sub-plot is resolved, they don't really have anything to do... so they end up sitting around with their thumbs up their asses until the writers can come up with something for them to do. It's either that, have them go wander the world (Alisae), or "kill" them off (G'raha). Even MSQ NPCs are hard to figure out what to do with after their story arc is resolved; while killing them off is a bit predictable (and sadly blasé in XIV these days), it's better than having them sitting around doing nothing like WoW's racial leaders (most of whom do nothing during any given expansion).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ultimately the problem is that the game cannot assume you have done anything but the MSQ. Everything else is optional, so having side-story characters show up or be referenced further down the line is out of the question.

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Again you bring this up, when the game has already proven that that isn't the case. And again, I'm not saying anything about anyone's MSQ involvement, or, in this case, continuation at all. I can't help but point out, though, that everything you argue also applies to characters like Nero, who you are assuming will come back, even though he, too, has left the story (and gotten over his beef with Cid) in much the same way as Alisaie, who you are assuming won't, even though she's actually the only one who has stated she intends to return.

Your analysis is entirely based on subjective opinion and personal feelings towards the characters involved, and has already been contradicted by canon. Whether it was a one-time deal or not is irrelevant, as your statement that it can never happen is already false. There's really no point in trying to define rules when there aren't any. What happens happens.

Does anyone know if any of the specific Job quests shed light on this discussion?

For myself, I only have experienced PLD, DRK, and DRG to current completion (lvl 60), and, of the three, only the Drk story line actually shows any strong indication that our character has a firm will of his own.

[*Keep in mind, when I say "will" I don't just mean will power or resolve. It's obvious that the WoL has incredible resolve to do all the things he does. What I mean is an independent will - the mindset required to have your own desires, opinions, and agenda.]

Trying to avoid going into specific spoilers, the Drk story line is the only one I've seen, so far, that expressed opinions directly in conflict with the WoL's usual role of mindlessly agreeing to whatever people want him to do. The opinions are not directly expressed by the WoL; however, they are shown to be tied to a part of our personality that was, until recently, completely unknown/ignored. It seems to imply that the WoL is a character, albeit a mysterious one that (by the nature of him being customized by the player) is difficult to write with a specific personality.

The PLD story, as well, implies this, as the majority of your role in the lvl 50-60 quest is not commanded. You have actively chose to be involved for yourself.

I didn't think Ysayle's Heel Turn was out of nowhere. When she managed to get horde into Ishgard she had a sharp dose of reality when they attacked innocents rather than doing what she thought they would, which is go after the leadership. Ysayle's idealism lead to her being deluded into the reality of what the horde was. That's the big turning point for her in her story. When we meet her she is still stand offish but the ground her conviction was built on has already been eroded. The journey she takes with us only washes away that ground further until finally she is able to be honest with herself.

Moenbryda fit narratively fine. The primary issue the character had was that we as players had little time to get to know her so she did feel a bit rushed as a character. Given her backstory and the reason for inclusion in the narrative her traits, skills and personality made plenty of sense. Of course the Archons loved her. She was a friend they hadn't seen in a long time.

Minfilia I think has suffered due to her role. Being a good manager isn't glamorous. I think she has played her role in the Scions well and as I have said in the past anyone who underestimates the value of a good manager has never had to deal with lousy managers before. I think she is popular with the Faction leadership because the Scions proactively take a role in helping the city states in a time where the city states will take any help they can get. The problem with her is she is never in a role where we as players can really learn to appreciate her as a character. The closest is in 2.2 when she comes with us to learn about the echo. It was her observations that gave us the first clue on how the kill Ascians. Sadly she ended behind the desk again just pushing papers. This is one of the reasons I think Minfilia still has solid potential. We just have never seen her proactive in a role which wasn't dull.

There seems to be several issues here. The one about the WoL I'll come to shortly. The other main one seems to be the use of characters - like Moenbryda in particular - as plot devices and whether that means they're badly written and/or two-dimensional. I do agree that Moenbryda and Gra'ha in particular are mostly plot devices, but I disagree that this is necessarily bad writing. I was intrigued by Gra'ha and his backstory and wanted to know more; it was frustrating that they decided to get rid of him the way they did. He was an interesting character AND a plot device so the two things aren't mutually exclusive. But, yeah, his 'demise' was annoying; I'd categorise that as lazy writing rather than downright bad. I thought the whole of Moenbryda's story arc was very well done. She was believable from the start; her interactions with Urianger were hilarious and served to make him much more believable and sympathetic; and her sacrifice was both believable - she was a hothead - and sad. But she was still a plot device.

As for the WoL, I can see why some people get frustrated about his/her ... Let's call it plasticity. I'm a writer myself so I don't have an issue because I'm constantly working on her characterisation in my head. I don't RP as such but I have very definite ideas about who she is, what she thinks, and what she cares about. Sometimes that evolves; sometimes it radically changes (I recently switched to Au'Ra and had to retcon everything!). But I don't have a problem with that or with coming up with rationalisations for her 'decisions'. In my mind, I talked to Ysayle about the mistakes she made; it didn't change the outcome - of course not - but that's the kind of thing that helps me feel as though Elladie isn't just an empty puppet.

Edit: I just wanted to add, not saying that I think the story is perfect and doesn't need some rewrites here and there. I was very very cross when Nanamo turned out not to be dead after all; IMO that was a cheap device on SE's part. Make me all emotional for the big climax and then go back on it? Not good! And I'll be furious if they bring Hauchefant back. I adore Hauchefant; I tore through the Vault being terrified for Aymeric, and Hauchefant's death completely shocked me; in fact I screamed 'no, NO, NOOOOOO' so loudly at my PC my daughter came downstairs to make sure I was okay. If they bring him back with some 'deus ex machina' nonsense, it will tarnish and cheapen the whole story

Nanamo's return was kind of expected, I sayid it already and I will say again. There were lots of hiddent tips and unconcluded things we saw there, that keep a lot of people thinking that something wasnt right ( an example is cleatly that Teledji wasnt with the montecarists, he was acting alone. We know how lorolito is, he is the guy that always think twice before doing a move and he always consider the consequences of those acts. what he will win with nanamo's dead? a civil war would be good for him? Why making that lies about the sultana and her ilness? what will happen to him when everyone knows that the wol is being accused of treason by a group of merchants with a terrible reputation, what about the alliance, what about the garleans, etc, etc )

I do well agreed with Hauchefant's dead. He dies and SE totally showed us that he is dead for good. If he returns somehow, Im gonna be really angry.

Ysayle is dead is a 50-50 there are reasons for both, keeping her dead or resurect her. On my opinion I would like more about her and ohh common did nobody see the crush she has for Estenien? LOL

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Ysayle is dead is a 50-50 there are reasons for both, keeping her dead or resurect her. On my opinion I would like more about her and ohh common did nobody see the crush she has for Estenien? LOL

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I'd see it as more of a 50/50chance, but for a different reason, and one that is closer to Bahamut then Ysayle.

Ysayle created a primal in the same manner of Apothesosis Louisoux did, but unlike Phoenix, Shiva had worshipers, Tempered worshipers I assume, who likely do not know of her fate. They are two distinct creatures, It isn't a question of "if Shiva will be back", but "when", and the awnswer will probably be either when Omega pops up and absorbs all the primals (and show that it's more powerful than Ultima, which only absorbed 3), they introduce a new tier of difficulity for the Primals, neither will be likely to happen during Heavensward. Though I supposed the same could be said of Thordan and his Knights.

The Warrior of Light is a power fantasy player character if ever there was one. I see MINE as a character because, even if I do not RP, I made a whole personality and backstory for him. My imagination just abhors a vacuum.

It's too bad because I think the game would be more immersive if we could run into someone who genuinely hates the WoL. Right now a character poised to hate us is Lord Francel de Haillenarte (the character you save from being branded a heretic in 2.0.). We saved him but took his best friend away too and he's been finding excuses to not help us so far. Imagine if he shows up again raging at the WoL for the fact of their existence. It would be kind of amazing, wouldn't it?

That's really my problem. Nobody dislikes the WoL in lore. The WoL is incredibly powerful, too. The most immersed I have ever been in the WoL story was 2.55

When the WoL is a wanted criminal and doesn't even have their Light anymore. Sadly this was all undone in Heavensward. The Sultana is alive and we get our Light back.

Warrior of Darkness could be interesting to put pressure on the WoL but I would love, LOVE to just find someone who hates the WoL as a person, not because they're a villain and the WoL is good.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I'd see it as more of a 50/50chance, but for a different reason, and one that is closer to Bahamut then Ysayle.

Ysayle created a primal in the same manner of Apothesosis Louisoux did, but unlike Phoenix, Shiva had worshipers, Tempered worshipers I assume, who likely do not know of her fate. They are two distinct creatures, It isn't a question of "if Shiva will be back", but "when", and the awnswer will probably be either when Omega pops up and absorbs all the primals (and show that it's more powerful than Ultima, which only absorbed 3), they introduce a new tier of difficulity for the Primals, neither will be likely to happen during Heavensward. Though I supposed the same could be said of Thordan and his Knights.

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First you gotta realise that, Shiva is not like any primal we have seen, may have being the idea of Shiva of Iceheartm but was her havint the control, not the primal itself. Also all the heretics supported Iceheart rather than Shiva.
Second why you bring omegata to this? Doesnt make any sence.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

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I think Ilberd is that person :p

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Second why you bring omegata to this? Doesnt make any sence.

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Because Omega is noticed to be more powerful then Ultima, and I was just bring for a reason why SE might make the older primals relevant again lorewise.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I think Ilberd is that person :p

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Him too but I feel like he isn't going to come into the spot light for a while yet. I think he will pave the way into the next expansion, which I SUSPECT will be Ala Mhigo.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

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You misundertood me, you said that all the ones that hates us are the villians, the ones that are opossed to wol and everythone else. That you want someone who hate the wol as a person
I responded that person is Ilberd, he is no villian, but he hates us beacuse of jealousy, beacuse of all we have achieve and non he has done

You know I wonder if the idea of the WoL becoming a primal would make them more suish or less. On the one hand they basically have an army of worshipers by default, on the other hand a Primal WoL would as large a hatedom then a fandom in this regard because their existence is inherently detrimental to the land