Something is missing.

Something i miss in this game is my character doesn't feel Unique to play. I'm like every one else.
pressing the same buttons. doing the same rotation, yada yada yada.

What i would really like to see is a talent tree for every class. with at least 3 different routes. More supportive abilities and diversity between classes, because it feels like every class is starting to be the same. More focusing on cc and mechanics instead of this incredible boring focus on DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS 12341234

"But we should bring the player not the class"
Well no. Should be a good mixture between individual skill and how some classes are unique in their own way, so we can have more fun putting up fun class combos and so on :)
we can play every class/job anyway so why not?

well long story short. I would like to see some more class customization, then just gather gear to them.

I'd prepare your flame shield for the reasoning detailed here...

As much as i agree on having more customization parser data will end up trumping that as well as hive mind game play also. I've been pressing the a and b buttons (x and circle on ps and xbox) for roughly 27 years. its always gonna be that. Talent trees don't really work in the duty finder type game design. Even WoW saw this was hard and pretty much took them out once they added to raid finder and que system. If mmo went back to their MuD based roots and to EQ and the like and not needing a DF system we could prolly have stuff like this. AT most we have the materia system so up till endgame gear u could techically customise ur gear. But again due to DF even that has its limits.

And the classes dpo play different from each other, only a cynical person thinks they are the same.

In truth its really up to you how u wish to play each class/job. And to be frank I see ton of ppl playing all the jobs differently.



Perfect example is me and my boyfriend when we play SMN

I'm more opted to use Ifrit and use my party buff he has and use Eye 4 Eye on tank

He mainly uses garuda

I will sometimes help tank stun aoe with irfit as my boyfriend would use garuda stuff.

I mostly used Ruin 3 after 60 he used that sometimes but mostly stuck to ruin 1

heck i was just in haukke manor as my smn on this character and i dps'ed plus help healed the tank to give our healer some dps time.

parser data aside there is no real wrong way to play any class or job each has a good amount of added skills u can you and u can allocate ur points how u see fit.

While I enjoy skill trees and customization, in the end it always just devolves to "if you don't have THIS EXACT SETUP you aren't worth taking in the party".
I'd rather forget about that here and leave customization like that in my single player games.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

While I enjoy skill trees and customization, in the end it always just devolves to "if you don't have THIS EXACT SETUP you aren't worth taking in the party".
I'd rather forget about that here and leave customization like that in my single player games.

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This is what I foresee too, it's already mind numbingly painful to have certain classes without skills such as healers without swiftcast & roleplaying "ice magicians" taking route in duty finder. Can you imagine the rage and abundance of players with unwanted and troll focused specialised builds?

you stand out by actually being good at the game and playing your class to its fullest potential. unlike 90% of the playerbase

One of the most posted argument against this idea is most people will just get discriminated if they go with some bizarre build and thus we will all have to conform to the generic build... You will still see clones everywhere. Implying for maximum battle effectiveness and not for role playing purposes.

Talent trees serve no purpose but to give the illusion of choice.
People will also expect the spec system to go along with them.
The spec system goes against the whole principle of FFXIV in that you can play everything on one character.
If you want to argue and say "oh but they can just make it so you can play every spec as well" then what was the point of wasting the time implementing the system in the first place? and not just working on new jobs and expanding the skill sets of the current ones.

Everything you are asking for can be implemented better, faster and with more balance by removing the fake choices.
FFXIV is streamlined and because of that our only real balance issue at the moment is PLD vs WAR in regards to alex savage at least its the only one that I'm seeing regularly anyway.

Build routes and class customization only masks the problem with another problem. It won't solve the issue you pointed out in ur post. Build routes will always end up being perfectly optimized and many will create guides to building the perfect skill tree, which also means there will be clashes between players which will create a saltier community bludgeoning each other to death shouting 'HAHA U 1337 N3WB, UR TREE SUCKS, MIN3S BETTER! TROLOLOL'... I can just about see it now...

Anyways, while I do like skill trees with different paths, every game that has it, always comes down to one conclusion; the absolute build. That only half fixes the problem, but it will most definitely create a saltier community.

Maybe, I can sorta see a simple 'tree' type progression added somewhere along the line, one that will not directly affect skills... but that's another story.

Edit; I said it earlier, I enjoy MMOs with skill trees, but I was actually happy they didn't have that here. Made life easier on something that doesn't really have any effect on the game.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

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which is pretty much the the truth. I played ff11 for 7 years+ (lost count) I saw how the community on the game turned. FF11 has alot of what ppl ask for offstates build customisation which was trumped by hive mind and the parser crowd, FF11 got to the point where even doing LEVELING content meant u HAD to gearswap for every signle skill to reach its max. If u didn't gear swap u pretty much was treated like crap. (i speak from experience)

I personally don't want to see ff14 desovle into that because that was the main reason i quit ff11. I didn't like how the community went from being social and helpful to saying ur mom was a "lady of the evening" and that ur just an inbread hillbilly for not gear swaping. (was actually called that amoung other stuff)

In world of warcraft when addons were pretty much manditory, i was heavly insulted for playing on a shared pc and was unable to use addons. Hive mind mentalities tend to rule over MMO community much like everuthing else one idea is popular people think that 1 idea is the only way to be.

Also ff11 also had customizations (as i pointed out) can't realy say its the "all classes 1 character" set up it most;ly the DF system having to be all inclusive.

I think at least some illusion of choice customization would be great.

Like each class can offer 3 extra abilities and 2 extra traits. each ability
and trait could be upped to three tiers, but you can only make 5 choices.
Meaning you could open all 5 things, or ehances some and not open the others.

Gives a wide enough margin that people can be different, but overall difference
is not that significant.

if the numbers end up the same or at least not that vastly different, then customization should be applicable.

We have it already. A caster DPS that can "spec" as DPS or as heals. And well...you can see how much SE liked that idea...<.<

Play pvp where player skill really matters.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

We have it already. A caster DPS that can "spec" as DPS or as heals. And well...you can see how much SE liked that idea...<.<

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Sad part is, that could have been a fantastic idea, if they'd implemented it the right way. Nobody uses those stupid attribute points in anything but their main stat anyway. Once Keeper's Hymns became dirt cheap, anyone with a SCH/SMN could play both with ease. I think branching classes could have been rather awesome. It would allow us to have DPS version of the tanks, something the DPS Sword crowd would have loved. So many cries for a Sword/Board DPS. It would have given us DPS version of the healing classes, and variety on even the DPS classes. An Archer that branched into Bard AND Ranger, allowing those who didn't want to play Support to go raw damage? You know people would have eaten that up.

When you get to the end of the dungeon and people tell you "wow, you're the best X so far" or "That was the best run ever", and you know it was influenced by your actions. There you have your "uniqueness". I don't know about any game witch such degree of customization, whereas games with skilltrees tend to have solid builds that everybody use. As stated previously.

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Originally Posted by Sonata_rose

What i would really like to see is a talent tree for every class. with at least 3 different routes. More supportive abilities and diversity between classes, because it feels like every class is starting to be the same. More focusing on cc and mechanics instead of this incredible boring focus on DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS 12341234

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You could test out a healer class. They don't have a fixed rotation and their main focus is not DPS, DPS, DPS

This is nice in theory, but just isn't viable. The game has strict dps checks. I can speak only for my static, but when taking on a new member we would require them to bring a certain amount of dps, say 1400 from a blm (number out the air). As long as they can hit this, HOW they do it is not important to us. If they can somehow manage to magically hit this number by spamming scathe, then more power to them. But the game is designed in such a way that sticking to the set rotation is the only way to really hit the required number

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

FFXIV is streamlined and because of that our only real balance issue at the moment is PLD vs WAR in regards to alex savage at least its the only one that I'm seeing regularly anyway.

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u wrote WAR vs WAR wrong :P

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Originally Posted by sackm

you stand out by actually being good at the game and playing your class to its fullest potential. unlike 90% of the playerbase

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I don't know why you don't have more likes, but I threw you one, and I am quoting you because you nailed it!

In place of individual class customization, you get more variety of classes, each with much deeper skill usage and more complex rotations than any other mmorpg to date. It's at the point where we are running out of keybinds and mousebinds.

I've started a few threads on the subject which had lengthy discussions. Too many people think that everyone would look up the best builds and choice is an illusion, blah blah blah. Which I nearly believe now. These days people don't seem to play for fun, they play to reach the end as fast as possible so they can be bored that much quicker. When looking up fights on youtube is considered the norm, you just know this generation of gamers is in trouble.

Anyway, personally I love the idea of job customization. You have my one little like. Good luck with the thread and fighting off the subsequent flames.

Yeah, I miss talent and attribute specialization systems, too. I understand why they've fallen out of favor, though. While it is true that you could occasionally find some novel allocation outside of the meta for your specific playstyle - sometimes even to a tiny advantage, if you were compensating for a weakness or playing on a personal or guild strength - for the most part it just made bad players worse by giving them the freedom to create a character that would be broken even in the hands of a professional gamer.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

While I enjoy skill trees and customization, in the end it always just devolves to "if you don't have THIS EXACT SETUP you aren't worth taking in the party".

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I don't see how that can be the case outside of raiding groups.

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I'd rather forget about that here and leave customization like that in my single player games.

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I kinda thought customization was one of the main draws to MMORPGs?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I don't see how that can be the case outside of raiding groups.

I kinda thought customization was one of the main draws to MMORPGs?

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The claim that it degenerated to every player with the exact same build is bullshit, anyway - one of the excuses developers use to avoid balancing an intricate talent system, and one of the excuses players have to justify their anger at not understanding their own class well enough for their experiments with it to yield anything but disadvantages.

It led to builds revolving around a certain goal, but even in hallmark games like WoW which were notorious for this very kind of thing, you'd see plenty of, say, fury warriors with different talent distributions depending on whether or not they had access to a shaman or a paladin, whether they got lucky with 2h drops or 1h ones, and so on.

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Originally Posted by LandricFrey

I've started a few threads on the subject which had lengthy discussions. Too many people think that everyone would look up the best builds and choice is an illusion, blah blah blah. Which I nearly believe now. These days people don't seem to play for fun, they play to reach the end as fast as possible so they can be bored that much quicker. When looking up fights on youtube is considered the norm, you just know this generation of gamers is in trouble.

Anyway, personally I love the idea of job customization. You have my one little like. Good luck with the thread and fighting off the subsequent flames.

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It takes having played previous games (or a lengthy period here) and looking back on the community (and yourself) to really come to that conclusion and fully understand it. Skill trees and other such customization options that impact actual performance is an illusion of freedom in MMORPGs. I mean, people will chew you out for using very simple OGCD macros here that barely impact output, such as the beginner's macro for BRD that only has Misery's End and Bloodletter in it. Even if you intend to only do, at most, normal mode raids and never go into Savage and most Extremes, people on these boards will still see you as trash for even thinking about using a barely harmful macro lol. That 10-50 DPS loss is going to wipe your Neverreap party because you're using a macro! Don't do it!!1! People are stuck in a one-track mind when it comes to the freedom of choice and playstyle. These parties are generally not willing to compensate or adapt.

In theory, stat/job customization is great. Just like how, in theory, devs could create content and not bother with punishments or rules that centers around players behaving, trusting that no one will exploit or cheat in any way... dat Wolves Den and Triple Triad win-trading fiasco might have a say on that one. The thing is, with the stat/job customization, it falls into cookie cutter builds because of clueless perspectives or because people want to know the best way to do something. People don't want to be a burden upon others, so they'll look for what makes them perform the best. People want to be strong, so they'll look for what makes them so. Two perspectives for the same side of the coin. Both results in cookie cutter, hence the illusion of freedom. Although a different situation, just look at the meaningless stat customization we have already lol. For most players, it's all in on one stat alone. Heck, even if those were to include secondary stats, it'd be the same thing... all in on what is the best option. Players will typically look at someone not spec'd "properly" as some sort of personal offense because they look at it as this player is intentionally making things harder for everyone else. Making a villain out of someone for a stupid reason, albeit one that does have an impact in a very small amount of content (Savage, etc).

Bring back subjobs and apply weaponskills tied to weapons.

If this were a single player game, I'd be totally on board, but this is multiplayer, and the general community won't accept anything but the best possible build for their team.

Or reason I want this is so I have the option to not be a Bow Mage. WM basically kills bard. It was nice in theory but in practicality it causes bugs with action timing and just makes it into another turret mage playstyle. It's essentially Black Mage with a bow now. It's one of the most disliked aspects of Heavensward across the board.