Sometimes I don't get this community.

Case in point: discussion just now.

Someone complaining about Aurum Vale and the ridiculous number of trash pulls. Someone advocates the sacrifice method, chain pull and die at the boss, res the tank and keep going. What?

Everyone likes to hate on wow players. That's something wow players would do if they could. Of course, you don't need to, because you *can* pull the entire dungeon into the first boss room and still have the tank alive. But seriously? Hate that type and then ... advocate doing stuff that makes them that way.

5 minute dungeons are that way. Sheesh.

I....I...Uh...what?

You heard me.

Best part was, that conversation happened not 15 minutes after the same guy was trash talking wow players and how bad they are for this community. ><

Sounds like a bad group, or someone who doesn't hate on WoW players. I've personally never heard of this "sacrifice" method for that, and if people are complaining about trash pulls in a run, then they've probably joined via roulette. It seems like 90% of people who go into content through the roulette only care about speed running so they can get the bonus/tomestones/"need to do the roulette because I can", and as such will use whatever method available to skip through the dungeon. Sadly, those of us who play the content in the game to enjoy it are few and far between. I got the Ultros fight yesteday on my first attempt at the Trials Roulette, and after two wipes because some people were new/didn't remember the fight, everyone started leaving because they didn't want to put up with taking the time to do the content. It's one thing if you have very limited time to play, but I suspect most of these types of players just want to get done with everything as fast as they can so they can complain about not having anything to do.....

TL;DR A lot of people in this game are hypocrites, so stuff like this is bound to happen.....

Sac pulls are the way to go if you're just running it for your relic. Otherwise, why waste all of that EXP?

Whats up with needless labels.
wow players? wow didnt start everything.


This isnt something wow players would do, its something an impatient player would do, regardless of the game.

The first time I tried to run Aurum Vale that was exactly what the tank said we were doing. Tried it twice, died, quit, and we got a replacement tank who got us through the normal way, mob pack by mob pack.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Sac pulls are the way to go if you're just running it for your relic. Otherwise, why waste all of that EXP?

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If you're doing your leveling roulette, it's more exp efficient to sac pull everything and finish the dungeon, as anything past lv52~ish yields insufficient exp per mob. Then again, you shouldn't be using your leveling roulette past 52 if you're going for the most exp/hour ratio.

Hmm. In XI we'd have a THF do flee sac pulls in Dynamis all the time, so it's not just WoW. It's just another way of efficiency, granted not everyone could/should be doing it.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

The first time I tried to run Aurum Vale that was exactly what the tank said we were doing. Tried it twice, died, quit, and we got a replacement tank who got us through the normal way, mob pack by mob pack.

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It's quicker unless everyone is a uber-geared probro. Even though it's completely sync'd, a thoroughly overgeared player still outgears the dungeon decently.

To be honest though, it's pretty quick if everyone plays their role and sticks to the mechanics, it slows down when people try to hot dog by over pulling or dps facepulling something while the tank already has their hands full.

Actually running Arum Vale is almost an FFXIV IQ or ability test. A fully sync'd, smooth, successful run there shows a skillful party of players.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

If you're doing your leveling roulette, it's more exp efficient to sac pull everything and finish the dungeon, as anything past lv52~ish yields insufficient exp per mob. Then again, you shouldn't be using your leveling roulette past 52 if you're going for the most exp/hour ratio.

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You should do whatever you like to do and choose to do.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

You should do whatever you like to do and choose to do.

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Right, just as you should accommodate for the needs of others in DF to create a fun, enjoyable experience for everyone. To be specific, I was explaining to the OP that sac pulling AV is more exp per hour for a roulette than simply killing everything. Just as it was more tomes per hour sac pulling A.K vanilla, or first big pull of DD (leaving and reentering), or first room of AV when getting lv.50 (same as DD). ;) You get the idea

Pulling everything in the area while in AV for 'XP per hour' when there are two melee DPS with few actual AoE attacks AT LEVEL in the party is equivalent of getting "no XP per hour" because everyone dies. Every time.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Right, just as you should accommodate for the needs of others in DF to create a fun, enjoyable experience for everyone. To be specific, I was explaining to the OP that sac pulling AV is more exp per hour for a roulette than simply killing everything. Just as it was more tomes per hour sac pulling A.K vanilla, or first big pull of DD (leaving and reentering), or first room of AV when getting lv.50 (same as DD). ;) You get the idea

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I disagree. Ignoring any xp via sac pull is inefficient. Sac pulling is great for the xp at the end if you're doing high lvl roullette. But AV is not high lvl roullette. So I would rather get as much xp as ppl can tolerate if stuck with AV.

Or you can play the dungeon how it was designed... I hate AV just as much as the next guy but come on. I hate these types of pulls.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Sac pulls are the way to go if you're just running it for your relic. Otherwise, why waste all of that EXP?

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That's the thing. The conversation came up during someone's run with all sub 50s for exp. The guy arguing for sac runs wasn't even in it.

Was a FC discussion.

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Whats up with needless labels.
wow players? wow didnt start everything.


This isnt something wow players would do, its something an impatient player would do, regardless of the game.

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As a former wow player, yes, yes it is.

You must be done in 5 minutes or less or someone starts bitching. It's why I stopped tanking there.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Or you can play the dungeon how it was designed... I hate AV just as much as the next guy but come on. I hate these types of pulls.

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I do too, and I've yet to actually personally complete a run with a tank that tries them.

And apparently pulling mobs back a little bit is hard. :/

People derp on sacrifice pulls at low lvl more often than not. But it helps to explain the intent before hurling yourself into mobs, confusing the group.

Did they change the wow dungeons at higher levels? Is it like xiv now too? Few weeks ago me and my friends tried wow trial for kicks and we did the sub 20 dungeons like wailing caverns and shadowfang keep. One of them commented that these dungeons has been simplified compared to what it was before. I've been in these dungeons many many years ago but strangely enough, these reworked dungeons are more dungeon-ey than any of the xiv 2.0+ dungeons. They weren't a one line hallway, there were branching path, we got lost several times, we got separated a couple times. Difficulty aside, we actually had fun exploring the dungeon.

One thing I'm finding lately is that a number of new players appear to be interested in doing dungeon content for the first time unsync'd, and my question is why? I mean seriously what is the point of clearing a dungeon for the first time with FC friends and never having had the opportunity to experience the dungeon as intended. I get the fact that people want clears but it appears really self defeating to do it that way.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

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Honestly, a lot of older dungeons have more branches, wings, or are less linear in WoW. Some were made shorter and to the point with NPCs pointing in the general direction, but the original maps are largely the same, so you can still get turned around or find extra wings. Places like Maraudon and Sunken Temple were made shorter or split into more than one. Higher level instances are more linear, and nothing these days requires CC. As far as seeing impatient people in WoW, doesn't happen to me too often when I tank, but I chain pull.

As for a sac pull in AV, I've experienced that once, and it failed so much with them trying it over and over again with multiple bosses, I was questioning whether I wanted to wait another 40 minutes to queue as a DPS leveling through there. I just told them to do it normally, since it was plainly obvious that it wasn't going to work. That run was the biggest waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Did they change the wow dungeons at higher levels? Is it like xiv now too? Few weeks ago me and my friends tried wow trial for kicks and we did the sub 20 dungeons like wailing caverns and shadowfang keep. One of them commented that these dungeons has been simplified compared to what it was before.

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Most of them are very linear because side paths get ignored in the name of efficiency. Halls of Origination has four bosses in one giant room, just go up their stairs and kill. Everyone beelines for Rahj though because he gives the complete.

SFK and Wailing Caverns got rehauled because people bitched "we get lost". Sunken Temple of Atal'Hakkar had two whole levels removed.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Most of them are very linear because side paths get ignored in the name of efficiency. Halls of Origination has four bosses in one giant room, just go up their stairs and kill. Everyone beelines for Rahj though because he gives the complete.

SFK and Wailing Caverns got rehauled because people bitched "we get lost". Sunken Temple of Atal'Hakkar had two whole levels removed.

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Uh, just because people decide to make a route and ignore everything else doesn't make the dungeons linear. In fact that's way less linear than xiv dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Most of them are very linear because side paths get ignored in the name of efficiency. Halls of Origination has four bosses in one giant room, just go up their stairs and kill. Everyone beelines for Rahj though because he gives the complete.

SFK and Wailing Caverns got rehauled because people bitched "we get lost". Sunken Temple of Atal'Hakkar had two whole levels removed.

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And herein lies the problem. Many people, myself included, have asked for dungeons with less linearity. History has proven that people will always go for the easiest path, both in online games and single-player games.The forum community at large seems to want more diversity but, unfortunately, we aren't the majority. SE will add things to improve QoL here and there, but it would take quite a lot of voices for them to overhaul their dungeon designs.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Uh, just because people decide to make a route and ignore everything else doesn't make the dungeons linear. In fact that's way less linear than xiv dungeons.

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I'm talking about the reason they designed them as linear. They made them linear because when there were choices, folks ignored them.

http://www.wowhead.com/zone=4945/halls-of-origination

Look at the map for the Four Seats. You enter in the center, via elevator. Every single group either runs directly north, or protests until you do, because those other bosses take a total of 4 minutes to kill and "omg it's faster just to kill Rajh and be done". Never mind that those other bosses drop decent loot and not everyone is up to their ears in BoA gear.

I hate to break this to you, OP, but sac pulls have been around since Coil (t1 specifically). This tank isn't doing anything out of the ordinary, I've had the occasional tank do sac pulls in dungeons for well over a year now; most commonly in AV and DD I've seen tanks do this.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

Whats up with needless labels.
wow players? wow didnt start everything.


This isnt something wow players would do, its something an impatient player would do, regardless of the game.

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Basically this. I never understood why people think game communities are that different, they really aren't. Certain games attract certain demographics, but really you're dealing with the general public regardless, and there's always going to be good eggs and bad eggs.

Anyone that tries the sac pull/fanciful strat in WoW or FFXIV is told about all the wonder places they can go by me.I have been around MMOs long enough to know "Hey guys we can do it faster this way!" almost always leads to slower completion.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

Anyone that tries the sac pull/fanciful strat in WoW or FFXIV is told about all the wonder places they can go by me.I have been around MMOs long enough to know "Hey guys we can do it faster this way!" almost always leads to slower completion.

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Actually, sometimes it was better to take the shortcuts. So long as you inform the group first

Back in the day on Lineage 2, if you wanted to get to the world boss quickly on foot, like said Baium, you had a couple polearm classes make a mob train, so everyone can follow to a safe spot...

In the Steamvault in wow, back then in heroic mode groups learned that you could just take the water channel that went through half of the first packs of that dungeon. Back in those days, CC was a cherished commodity, but also made heroics take much longer to clear.