I don't understand the power of the Dark Knights

Do they have a connection with the void? Do they use the void like certain Thaumaturges/Black Mages? What is this 'Darkness' that they channel? Is it just a manifestation of their darker emotions? If so then anyone who can channel aether via emotions can be a Dark Knight?

I really want to understand where Dark Knight's powers come from, most other jobs seem to have good explanation, but it seems a lot of people or maybe Dark Knight itself is piggybacking on the "It is just an expression of emotions" similar to like Warriors.

Is it possible this Darkness we tap into is the same as what the Ascians tap into? Some form of energy from Zodiark? Or could it possibly be the void and voidsent that are behind these powers?

1st, read up on Persona 4 and Jungian Psychology.

Then remember that the "Darkness" it's referring to is "Spiritual Darkness" aka your character's inner bad guy.

Then the rest is explained over the course about how your pain and suffering is channeled via your crystal into (What is assumed to be) the Umbral Aspected Aetheric Energy that powers your attacks and techniques.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

1st, read up on Persona 4 and Jungian Psychology.

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God bless you, 21st century, for making sentences like this possible.

That said, the Dark Knight story does borrow certain specific themes from Persona 4's rather specific expression of Jungian psychology. Blah blah repressed aspects of the psyche blah. The Lore subforum's resident Dark Nut will probably be along shortly to clear up my secondhand information.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

The Lore subforum's resident Dark Nut will probably be along shortly to clear up my secondhand information.

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What? Did somebody call for me?

J/k, but I'da got here sooner if I weren't at werk.

While the exact mechanics of the power of darkness, as used by Dark Knights, are not well explained, it's not just "negative" or "dark" emotions that fuel the Dark Knight's powers. As Sidurgu will explain if you talk to him and ask "What is a Dark Knight?," everyone has a tiny, healthy bit of void in them, and this is where the Dark Knight's powers come from. That tiny void is where all your repressed emotions go, not just the bad ones, and is what makes up "Fray" as you know him / her. This is further expanded upon by the DRK 58 quest, where the moogles have to push Sidurgu towards acknowledging his love for Rielle that he had been denying. In other words, using the power of darkness requires complete mastery of oneself, and by extension complete acceptance of oneself. That's why the power of darkness is so dangerous - if you're dishonest with yourself your dark side (more like psychological shadow) will manifest and forcibly try to make you pursue the desires you deny. In the Warrior of Light's case, this desire is freedom from Hydaelyn's yoke.

In other words, the power of darkness is using one's repressed emotions to reach into that "tiny void" in everyone and draw power out of it. Very dangerous because denying yourself will lead to insanity, and overuse of the power of darkness could kill you. So while anyone could theoretically become a Dark Knight, the self-acceptance is probably the tricky bit that a lot of hopefuls fail, leading to their deaths; the Warrior of Light might be a prodigy Dark Knight like s/he is with every other class, but even s/he comes within a hair's breadth of falling into darkness. (Plus it's a somewhat secret art.)

Exactly where that "tiny bit of void" comes from is, well, the driving question. It could be connected to Zodiark, or it could simply be a natural part of mortal existence. We don't really know, and unless Dark Knights get focused on in an expansion like Dragoons were in Heavensward, we probably never will. Rest assured, though, that there are no demonic contracts involved, and unless a certain theory of mine is correct, it has nothing to do with the Ascians or Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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We will just have to wait until 4.0 to see how the Dark Knight job quests continue

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Then remember that the "Darkness" it's referring to is "Spiritual Darkness" aka your character's inner bad guy.

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Not totally accurate. From a psychological perspective, if what / who you're referring to is the "Fray" portion of the Warrior of Light's psyche, s/he is far from a "bad guy." "Fray," like the characters' shadows from the Persona franchise, represents everything the Warrior of Light is but denies: that s/he often fights just for a sporting battle and to test his/her abilities, that s/he hates being roped into helping idiots who could have helped themselves, that s/he hates being pestered into helping others do their jobs, and most importantly that s/he is in great emotional pain from everything during 2.x.

Remember, even in Persona 4 the characters' shadows aren't evil per sé - just a representation of their repressed emotions and desires. The only character whose shadow is truly evil is the main villain, and as an attempted rapist and murderer, that's hardly surprising. "Fray," or your spiritual darkness, is just your emotions and desires running wild, with no mask of society to keep him/her in check. The worst s/he does is beat up some soldiers at Whitebrim Front to stop you from being executed (since, y'know, Ishgardian justice is "die as an innocent or die because you're guilty"). You would sacrifice everything to protect the world; "Fray" would sacrifice the world to protect you and make you happy.

The trick to understanding the power of darkness is the ability to recognize and accept that "Fray," or your spiritual darkness, is not your evil impulses. It's not wrong, or bad, or evil. It just is - it is you, all of you. That strength of heart required to face oneself is why so many probably fail and die in the process of becoming a Dark Knight, and what happened to the Warrior of Light was probably a big mishap that went on far longer than it should have.

... not so simple, I know. Still, it's better than having "Fray" go on about how s/he wanted to have sex with Minfilia and/or Thancred, and now s/he can't because they're MIA.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

We will just have to wait until 4.0 to see how the Dark Knight job quests continue

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Maybe. If you talk to Sidurgu again and ask how he and Rielle are doing, the Warrior of Light will suggest that he train Rielle in the dark arts - a suggestion he is flustered by, but is open to if it's what she wants. So it sounds like we might be training Rielle...

Could be a red herring, but still.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I know, Jungian Psychology is weird, The Jungian Shadow is simply everything that we don't show in public. Thus the "True Self" conniption Fray was having. But you're right, The Shadow it's self is neither good nor evil it is simply the reverse of the person that it's a part of. if you're quiet and shy in public then your shadow is flamboyant and outgoing, if you're violent and fearless in public than your shadow is a pacifist and a coward. To rap it all in one phrase, The Shadow (And By Extension "Fray") is the opposite side of the coin that is the person in question. If the Warrior of Light is Heads then Fray is Tails.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That strength of heart required to face oneself

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I see what you did there. Heck, when I first saw the cutscene for Our Answer, I was floored by the similarities.

As others have said, the darkness isn't necessarily evil. It's not even necessarily bad. It is similarly linked to emotions that Warriors have in battle, but with one key difference. Warriors become so enraged in battle that they literally have to fight their emotions to keep from going uncontrollably berserk and becoming the monster they seek to destroy. Dark Knights' power doesn't just stem from the love and thrill of battle, it stems from their overall outlook on life - being tired of seeing others hurt but not being able to do anything about it, or conversely in our character's case, always being expected to do something about it. The desire to break free from the rules and just do what you FEEL is right, rather than what others tell you is right. They use this desire to literally manifest the power of their own darker emotions, but maintain control of them in service to the things they actually want to achieve. It's... weird. But it works.


Put another, still psychological way:
Id: Dark Knight's desire to do what they feel is right
Ego: Dark Knight
Superego: Expectations and roles placed on Dark Knight by society and themselves

The Dark Knight has to balance these, and literally draws power from the friction generated by being between the two. They're the hybrid car of tanks.

Dark Knights derive their power from (feelings of) salt.

You're right at some points, and wrong at others. A shadow is not your opposite. It's what you refuse to show entirely. A part of you that you don't accept because, at times, it's just not right to accept it, or you don't want to. If you're quiet and shy at heart, you're still quiet and shy. Your shadow won't be outgoing, because that's nto what you are. If you were hiding the fact that you loved being outspoken because society placed on you the limitation of being meek, then yes, your shadow would be loud and vibrant like you want to be, but can't.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Dark Knights derive their power from (feelings of) salt.

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Not entirely. The power of darkness responds to a desire - any true, heartfelt desire. During the DRK 58 quest, Rielle and the Moggles- er, the Pomguard give Sidurgu crap over using his duty as an excuse to indulge in vengeance, and that the power of darkness responds to love just as readily as hate. To use it to its fullest extent, a Dark Knight must accept their selfish desires - but that doesn't necessarily mean it's evil or wrong, just that it's what the Dark Knight wants, not what s/he feels obligated or forced into.

(If this was a jest, I apologize for taking it in earnest.)

Anyway, no, your shadow is not "evil you" or a photo-negative of your normal self. It's you, literally, you, just without society to keep your impulses, desires, and emotions restrained. For instance, while the Warrior of Light is considerably more irritable and less willing to put up with other peoples' shit, s/he still does everything s/he normally would during the 30-50 line. "Fray" just gives you a little push into learning how to use the power of darkness, and the rest is you. From slaughtering Temple Knights to save a maid, to getting annoyed with "Fray" for making you do a largely meaningless task, to slaughtering Amalj'aa for a sporting battle with the excuse of saving fools who could have saved themselves, to chewing out a merchant for being a massive ingrate, to beating up the Whitebrim soldiers to save yourself... those are all things you, the Warrior of Light, actually want.

But, because you're expected to be the calm, confident, selfless, stoic badass you're known for being, you can't actually express those feelings in polite society. Deep down you're suffering, and unsure of yourself, and angry and resentful over everything that's happened despite your best efforts. Nobody actually cares about that, though, and it's something you're very, very angry about. At the same time, your shadow is also your sorrow and despair. "Fray" is everything you are, but deny for whatever reason.

So again, "Fray" is not dark, evil, mean, jackass, or bad you. S/he isn't the other side of the coin. "Fray" is you, and you are "Fray."

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Originally Posted by Cilia

So again, "Fray" is not dark, evil, mean, jackass, or bad you. S/he isn't the other side of the coin. "Fray" is you, and you are "Fray."

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"I am thou, thou are I, look in thy heart, open the door and call forth what is within."

I figured I'd toss in something that happens very late into the entire story of being a Dark Knight, but I'll also put in a spoiler, just so those who are leveling aren't spoiled.

Very late in the Dark Knight story line, you seek out help understanding the power that the Warrior of Light and Sidurgu possess. At first, you go to the dragons of Anyx Trine, but they do not fully comprehend our abilities and instead suggest we speak with the moogles of Moghome. In the next quest, we do just that, and we get treated to something very interesting. Rielle gets "kidnapped" by the moogles to provoke Sidurgu and the Warrior of Light into fighting them, which is humorously pretty much Moggle Mog (Hard)'s first phase, complete with music. After you beat them senseless, they return Rielle, but also mention through song that our powers manifest from love. Sidurgu at first passes it off as nonsense, and Rielle calls him out on how he has always acted selfishly since she met him. You then get to hear him not only admit that Rielle is right, but also, later at the Forgotten Knight, you hear from him about why he became a Dark Knight: His entire tribe was slaughtered by the Ishgardians out of fear that they were a new type of dragon. Sidurgu however was saved when his mentor Dark Knight swooped in and rescued him. He then accepts that while he was seemingly embracing noble ideals afterwards, he was mostly fueled by a thirst for vengeance.

In the final quest of the storyline, you wrap things up nicely by slaying every one Countess Ystride throws at you, up to herself, who you and Sidurgu show mercy towards after beating her within an inch of her life. Sidurgu admits that while he wants to kill her, he won't, because she is Rielle's mother. As the three begins to walk away, the countess declares that she will never stop hunting Rielle, believing it to be the will of the Fury. Rielle, too disgusted to even see Ystride as her mother any more, prays for her and gives her the traditional last rights of Ishgard, giving Sidurgu permission to end Ystride's tragic life, which he does so, but begrudgingly.

Afterwards, in Ishgard, Rielle decides to stay with Sidurgu, on one condition, he has to be more honest with her. Rielle and the Warrior of Light share in laughter as Sidurgu reluctantly agrees. And then he says that he will stay in Ishgard as a defender of the people, a true one, much like his mentor. And then asks the Warrior of Light what they stand for, friends, Eorzea, yourself, or something else.

Now, the important details here, is that afterwards, you can ask Sidurgu about being a Dark Knight, and he gives you the standard shocked preface before explaining it to you. At the end of his explanation, he admits that he fears the moogles may have been onto something. When you look back at every single Dark Knight quest before Fray is bested, ultimately, you are still doing good deeds out of love for the land you live in. Fray doesn't like that you still, regardless of how irritated you are, do these things, and while under Fray's influence, you do the heroic deeds, but with great abandon, recklessly slaying your foes simply to bask in their fear and blood. However, upon learning that Fray is much more than Fray appears to be, you fight back, selflessly defending the now helpless soldiers of Whitebrim Front. The entire battle is very vague in what exactly is happening, but we can imply from Fray's dialogue as well Lord Drillemont's dialogue that what happened was very much real and that they truly did fight beside you to best your inner dark desires. Note that in the final quest with Fray, you are truly acting out of love for the country you live in, you stopped yourself from harming people who were truly innocent, who were worried for you, a hero who had saved them before. We end up seeing similar themes with Sidurgu. We watch as he is a bloodthirsty killer, acting upon his desires under the pretense of a noble cause, much like the Warrior of Light did prior. And in the end, he ultimately realizes that his thirst for vengeance, his thirst for blood, was simply making yet more sad orphans like himself, and was hurting someone he very likely considers as an adopted child. Ultimately, Sidurgu doesn't wish to kill Ystride because he doesn't wish to inflict such a deep pain onto Rielle, a pain he is all too familiar with, and it is likely he wished to not kill Ystride out of love for Rielle and not a sense of mercy. This in turn explains why, in the post-quest dialogue, he mentions the moogles again, Sidurgu doesn't want to admit it, the Warrior of Light doesn't want to admit it, we the player base don't want to admit it, but a Dark Knight's power isn't from our darker desires, nor is it from some possessive spirit, but rather, it's simply from love.

TL;DR: Dark Knights are powered by love, not "darkness." It's why we are still the Warrior of Light in the end of it all.

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

TL;DR: Dark Knights are powered by love, not "darkness." It's why we are still the Warrior of Light in the end of it all.

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This cannot be overstated. Much as a lot of Dark Knights want to feel like their class is some kind of blacker-than-black jungian demon-communer who pulls their power from the untapped corners of the void, it seems their power is entirely introspective and born of good heartwarming intentions.

They're more paladinny than the most pure of paladins it seems... they just dress like Batman and have spell effects that scream more Dark Wizard than ultimate angelic warrior of pure loving light.

Sorry :(

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

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Lets not forget how satisfying it was to beat them around like a rag doll after all the bs they put us threw in The Churning Mists. Was a nice bonuse.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

This cannot be overstated. Much as a lot of Dark Knights want to feel like their class is some kind of blacker-than-black jungian demon-communer who pulls their power from the untapped corners of the void, it seems their power is entirely introspective and born of good heartwarming intentions.

They're more paladinny than the most pure of paladins it seems... they just dress like Batman and have spell effects that scream more Dark Wizard than ultimate angelic warrior of pure loving light.

Sorry :(

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Sorry about what? I'd rather thank everyone for their contribute to this thread, and the in-depth look at the already engrossing DRK storyline - one of the best FFXIV has sported so far.

Reprising the comics analogy, the Paladin's either a flying brick (minus the flying, at least until your choco's riding those aether currents) or a more down-to-earth loyal protector, while being generally a Friend to All Living Things. Think most Superman analogues or, even better, classic Captain America; he even has the shield.

The Warrior... well, the madder he gets, the stronger he gets. "Strongest one there is" and "smash" aren't too far removed for this one. :-)

The Dark Knight does show shades of Batman... if he was more inclined, say, towards Midnighter's methodology. Sidurgu's mentor even chose him in a guise reminiscent of Bruce Wayne taking in Dick Grayson.

But in the end, yes, they are doing it for the greater good. For love's sake. They're... Sailor Moon, just with a Bad Girl getup.
Or if you'd rather like, Saber Alter. Zero from Code Geass would also qualify (he's causing all that ruckus because VENGEANCE!, but in the end it's all about "I want to bring out a kinder, gentler world for my little sister" - aww, Lelouch, you big softie you).

As a parting gift, one of the best lines from Megatokyo, back when it was on a roll:

Ninja live by code of honor. Magical girl live by code of love. This lead to many disaster and much destruction of urban area. Honor much safer.

Love is a facet of the power of darkness, but that's not all there is to it.

The moogles explain to Sidurgu that the power of darkness is fueled by love, and Rielle chews him out for using his duty as an excuse to indulge in his vengeance, but it seems to me more that Sidurgu was being dishonest with himself than running entirely on hate and rage. He stated his duty was why he fought, and beneath that was vengeance, but beneath that was his growing affection for Rielle he was denying to himself for fear of losing her. Thus, Sidurgu was unable to fight at full power because he was denying himself.

The power of darkness is, essentially, the power to wield your own heart as a weapon. The problem is that there is darkness in every heart ("We all have a little bit of void in us. But it's quite healthy.") and to use your heart as a weapon without losing yourself to your hidden desires you must know those hidden desires. In our case, it's freedom from Hydaelyn's yoke; in Sidurgu's case, it's that he wants to be loved and cared for, and wants to love and care for others in turn.

Dark Knights are neither guardians nor destroyers - they are both at the same time. Recognizing and accepting this is what gives you the power to use your heart as a weapon and wield the power of darkness to its fullest extent.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Dark Knights are neither guardians nor destroyers - they are both at the same time. Recognizing and accepting this is what gives you the power to use your heart as a weapon and wield the power of darkness to its fullest extent.

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"We fight with the power of our hearts!"
(...that greatsword on our back does help quite a bit, of course)

That's actually a much better way of looking at it I think, and it prompts the summary that the Dark Knight is fundamentally about Introspection and self.

Perhaps that's the -actual- contrast between Paladins and Dark Knights. Paladins embody unwavering wills, stoicism, being rigid in the face of adversity, generally acting like a defensive rock and tempering their own emotions. Dark Knights are the opposite - they embrace their feelings and emotions and bring their power from tapping into that reservoir that's a mix of darkness, love, excitement, desire, hatred and insecurity.

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Originally Posted by FaerieAura

I see what you did there. Heck, when I first saw the cutscene for Our Answer, I was floored by the similarities.

As others have said, the darkness isn't necessarily evil. It's not even necessarily bad. It is similarly linked toemotions that Warriors have in battle, but with one key difference. Warriors become so enraged in battle that they literally have to fight their emotions to keep from going uncontrollably berserk and becoming the monster they seek to destroy. Dark Knights' power doesn't just stem from the love and thrill of battle, it stems from their overall outlook on life - being tired of seeing others hurt but not being able to do anything about it, or conversely in our character's case, always being expected to do something about it. The desire to break free from the rules and just do what you FEEL is right, rather than what others tell you is right. They use this desire to literally manifest the power of their own darker emotions, but maintain control of them in service to the things they actually want to achieve. It's... weird. But it works.


Put another, still psychological way:
Id: Dark Knight's desire to do what they feel is right
Ego: Dark Knight
Superego: Expectations and roles placed on Dark Knight by society and themselves

The Dark Knight has to balance these, and literally draws power from the friction generated by being between the two. They're the hybrid car of tanks.

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I got the impression the nature of the Inner Beast was more of a person's primal nature. Its not what a person represses but rather person's desires instinctively played out. It responds to danger and challenges but also can go all mother bear when things the person care for are threatened. Its like a wild animal. Not evil but instinctive.

The 50+ WAR story gets into this.

The difference between a Paladin and Dark Knight is on a fundamental level: selflessness versus selfishness.

Paladins derive their strength from their oaths. They strive to minimize their will and fight on behalf of others, always relying on their code and morals when in a tight spot. A Paladin's power comes from how much they're willing to remove themselves from the equation to see justice done. They do their very best to be selfless. "I swore to protect."

Dark Knights, unlike Paladins, are fundamentally selfish. Or rather they accept that people are fundamentally selfish and make no effort to hide it. Dark Knights draw their power from their desires - their wants, in other words. "I want to protect."

In essence, it's kind of like the Jedi vs. Sith difference. Jedi derive their strength from control, while Sith empower themselves with passion. Both have their good points (restraint and freedom), and both have their bad points (dogma and corruptibility).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Still, it's better than having "Fray" go on about how s/he wanted to have sex with Minfilia and/or Thancred, and now s/he can't because they're MIA.

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Fray talked about having sex with Minfilia and Thancred? O_O

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Fray talked about having sex with Minfilia and Thancred? O_O

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Of course not. It was a psychology joke.

Now, tell me about your mother...

I believe somewhere Fray says

You little (expentive) we do your quest, we fetch your stuff and we do what you people won't do yourself.

I take this as the DRK is a a class that doesn't necessary do heroic things cause he HAS to do them but because HE WANTS to do them, basically Chaotic Good in the D&D world

Basically the PLD is like mall security or TSA, they (sometimes) burdened by their job but are sworn to protect so they must do it
the DRK is like a detective or FBI they LOVE their job and it was their passion to protect

PLD is more about conviction and self sacrifice. Their duty can be a burden but they do what they do because they believe in what they do. They suffer and do the right thing even when its not the easy option cause they believe in protecting those who are less able to protect themselves.

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Originally Posted by PogueX

I believe somewhere Fray says

You little (expentive) we do your quest, we fetch your stuff and we do what you people won't do yourself.

I take this as the DRK is a a class that doesn't necessary do heroic things cause he HAS to do them but because HE WANTS to do them, basically Chaotic Good in the D&D world

Basically the PLD is like mall security or TSA, they (sometimes) burdened by their job but are sworn to protect so they must do it
the DRK is like a detective or FBI they LOVE their job and it was their passion to protect

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Actually, Drk would be more like the CIA. What they're doing may not be legal, but it is justice.

I always believed DRK=Batman; their way of protecting the innocent and weak may not be kosher, but they're willing to step over the line to get the job done.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

PLD is more about conviction and self sacrifice. Their duty can be a burden but they do what they do because they believe in what they do. They suffer and do the right thing even when its not the easy option cause they believe in protecting those who are less able to protect themselves.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I always believed DRK=Batman; their way of protecting the innocent and weak may not be kosher, but they're willing to step over the line to get the job done.

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So... Renegade Shepard vs. Paragon Shepard. I can see that. I also like the idea of my character pulling out her greatsword and saying that famous FemShep Renegade line, "Show me yours tough guy. Bet mine's bigger."

you dont know the power of the dark side